Withholding relations and crumbling marriage, Help!

[underacloud]

To which you could gently reply once: “I’m not okay with you contracepting. I think it’s wrong for either of us to do it. I would like you to choose not to contracept. But whereas I know for certain that it would be a sin for me to contracept, I recognize that you have to come to that conclusion on your own and for yourself, and I won’t deny you marital relations while you work that out with God.”

What a lovely way to put it!

This is always a struggle because what we sometimes want to say to the non-Catholic spouse is something like (to the effect of): “why don’t you just contracept so I’m not morally responsible?”. The difficulty is that as the Catholic spouse we cannot encourage the contraception, so we can’t even just say something like this. We need to beat around the bush somewhat and let them arrive at the conclusion that if they want to contracept, they can take up the responsibility (morally and practically) for it. But I really like the way nodito put it here.

 

[Rau]

That’s still a cop out. It’s also not elegant. It’s basically saying I think you are a sinner and going to hell, but hey that’s on you, let get busy.

SERIOUSLY, if she used that phrase on you, you would be insulted and hurt.

Again YOU changed the game on her, she didn’t do anything. She is YOUR WIFE and the mother of your children and you are less concerned about how your change is making her life hard, at a time when her life is pretty hard already, than you are about how to force her to do NFP so you can resume marital relations and feel good about it.

Sex and NFP is not what is wrong with your marriage here, it’s your decision to change the game, you need to step back and deal with that with her first.

Given the OP’s conversion and understanding of what is right, what would you have him do?

Even were they both favourable to contraception, would you argue that the responsibility for the contraception is always to be his because it was initially?

 

[Alix1912]

, “Each of us needs to follow our conscience.”

That would be a much better way to phrase it…it comes of much less condescending as well. If you are going to make the argument, use that phrase instead.

As a side note to your wife…withdrawal is the least effective method of preventing conception it’s been proven to be very fallible. If she is seriously about not getting pregnant for a while she needs to look into a better method, I’d consult with an OBGYN.

 

[agentlank]

That’s still a cop out. It’s also not elegant. It’s basically saying I think you are a sinner and going to hell, but hey that’s on you, let get busy.

SERIOUSLY, if she used that phrase on you, you would be insulted and hurt.

Again YOU changed the game on her, she didn’t do anything. She is YOUR WIFE and the mother of your children and you are less concerned about how your change is making her life hard, at a time when her life is pretty hard already, than you are about how to force her to do NFP so you can resume marital relations and feel good about it.

Sex and NFP is not what is wrong with your marriage here, it’s your decision to change the game, you need to step back and deal with that with her first.

So you are saying that I should just go on living my life sinning and have complete disregard for what I believe is right and wrong? What you are suggesting is far more damning than abstinence.

Last time I checked abstinence never killed anyone, birth control DOES. I’m sorry for the struggles you may be having with your marriage and this topic, but for you to suggest that I should continue to choose sin (a mortal sin at that) is ridiculous.

I’m not an animal and I don’t expect my wife to be either, for anyone to say that they can’t live without sex is just ludicrous to me. Plus I’m not asking her to live without sex, I’m only asking that we have periods of abstinence.

Unfortunately all of this is putting a lot of doubt in my head about the type of relationship my wife and I have.

 

[Alix1912]

Given the OP’s conversion and understanding of what is right, what would you have him do?

Even were they both favourable to contraception, would you argue that the responsibility for the contraception is always to be his because it was initially?

I would have him stop focusing on sex, and focus on the bigger more fundamental changes this decision has had on his marriage. The OP admitted to having a problem with porn and masturbation, so I think his urgency to get the sex issue solved quickly, particularly when his wife has recently had a baby is a bit suspect.

His change of faith is going to have huge and profound effects on his marriage, none of which he seems to want to address. He seems to be laser focused on the NFP/sex part.

Has he addressed with her how the kids are going to be raised, is he going to try and force her raise them catholic even if it’s not her faith. What about their marriage? Id he going to tell her that most likely they are not married in the eyes of the Catholic Church and have to either go through convalidation or radical sanation? These seem to be much bigger and more important issues that how can I get my wife to have sex with me.

He has fundamentally changed, and thus changed the terms of his marriage. He needs to address this before running the risk (because that risk is always there) of adding more kids to the equation with sex.

 

[Rau]

… but for you to suggest that I should continue to choose sin (a mortal sin at that) is ridiculous.

I don’t know that avoid is advocating that…which is why I asked what she’d have you do.

 

[underacloud]

That’s still a cop out. It’s also not elegant. It’s basically saying I think you are a sinner and going to hell, but hey that’s on you, let get busy.

This is not true at all.

We Catholics think it is gravely sinful for *us *to use contraception. And we think it is intrinsically wrong for anyone. But we do not believe it is necessarily gravely sinful (sending one to hell) for non-Catholics to use contraception. Since protestant churches now unanimously (I think) teach that contraception is acceptable, we recognise that any protestant may be rightly following their own conscience in this matter, and thus not personally culpible for what is nonetheless wrong.

In much the same way we don’t think a protestant spouse is going to hell for not coming to mass with us. We have an obligation to go to mass every Sunday, but we don’t hold others to that standard.

 

[Alix1912]

So you are saying that I should just go on living my life sinning and have complete disregard for what I believe is right and wrong? What you are suggesting is far more damning than abstinence.

Last time I checked abstinence never killed anyone, birth control DOES. I’m sorry for the struggles you may be having with your marriage and this topic, but for you to suggest that I should continue to choose sin (a mortal sin at that) is ridiculous.

I’m not an animal and I don’t expect my wife to be either, for anyone to say that they can’t live without sex is just ludicrous to me. Plus I’m not asking her to live without sex, I’m only asking that we have periods of abstinence.

Unfortunately all of this is putting a lot of doubt in my head about the type of relationship my wife and I have.

I said nothing about sinning. I am saying that you need to not focus on sex. Take it out of the equation (abstinence), and address the fact that your conversion has changed your entire marriage and you need to deal with that first.

 

[underacloud]

That would be a much better way to phrase it…it comes of much less condescending as well. If you are going to make the argument, use that phrase instead.

Ah, fair enough.

Yes, this is important. I think combining what noditio said and this important rider is a good approach.

Never mind my last post - I think what you said here negates the need for it.

 

[Alix1912]

Ah, fair enough.

Yes, this is important. I think combining what noditio said and this important rider is a good approach.

Never mind my last post - I think what you said here negates the need for it.

Again as the protestant in an interfaith marriage…there is nothing that gets me angrier, puts my guard up, or makes me less receptive to an idea, then coping what I call the “Catholic Condescension attitude”. it is so off-putting and demeaning. The saddest part is that most Catholics don’t even realize they are doing it. I’m probably hyper sensitive to it, but I guarantee the OP’s wife probably is right now too.

My husband has learned over the years to at least attempt to think about how he phrases things so as not to come off in an unintentional “holier than thou” tone.

 

[Rau]

I would have him stop focusing on sex, and focus on the bigger more fundamental changes this decision has had on his marriage. The OP admitted to having a problem with porn and masturbation, so I think his urgency to get the sex issue solved quickly, particularly when his wife has recently had a baby is a bit suspect.

His change of faith is going to have huge and profound effects on his marriage, none of which he seems to want to address. He seems to be laser focused on the NFP/sex part.

Has he addressed with her how the kids are going to be raised, is he going to try and force her raise them catholic even if it’s not her faith. What about their marriage? Id he going to tell her that most likely they are not married in the eyes of the Catholic Church and have to either go through convalidation or radical sanation? These seem to be much bigger and more important issues that how can I get my wife to have sex with me.

He has fundamentally changed, and thus changed the terms of his marriage. He needs to address this before running the risk (because that risk is always there) of adding more kids to the equation with sex.

I agree they have some things to think about. Why do you think they would not be married in the Church’s eyes? Why do you think he will avoid addressing any of the matters that you raise - what did he say to give that Impression?

How has he changed the terms of their marriage? All that has been exposed here AFAIK is that he’s changed his view on certain acts - surely this is something to be worked out. Were those acts pivotal to his wife’s decision to marry him?

I don’t perceive him to be singularly focussed on getting sex with his wife. He appears to be committed to not contracepting. I note you are not advocating that he contracept…

 

[underacloud]

Again as the protestant in an interfaith marriage…there is nothing that gets me angrier, puts my guard up, or makes me less receptive to an idea, then coping what I call the “Catholic Condescension attitude”.

Are you sure it’s a “Catholic Condescension attitude”…or a more specific “Husband Condescension attitude”?

The saddest part is that most Catholics don’t even realize they are doing it. I’m probably hyper sensitive to it, but I guarantee the OP’s wife probably is right now too.

To be fair, any person of faith tends to believe their faith is the right one - that is the nature of faith. And in particular any convert or revert often feels their faith more intensely for some time and that can certainly impact on others. You are right that the OP and your husband are the ones who have changed the game and need to evaluate how these changes are impacting on others - wife, children, etc.

 

[Rau]

…
To be fair, any person of faith tends to believe their faith is the right one - that is the nature of faith. And in particular any convert or revert often feels their faith more intensely for some time and that can certainly impact on others…

Indeed. Just have a read of some of the writings of Luther for examples of condescension. Catholic’s have no monopoly here!

 

[Alix1912]

Indeed. Just have a read of some of the writings of Luther for examples of condescension. Catholic’s have no monopoly here!

Never said they did. But when you are the spouse who changed the game and you are coming off over zealous (which can read as condescension), you need to be very careful or you will do more harm then good.

 

[Rau]

Never said they did. But when you are the spouse who changed the game and you are coming off over zealous (which can read as condescension), you need to be very careful or you will do more harm then good.

True. But Alix, it was you who labelled the behaviour “Catholic condescension”!