Within Catholicism, how can morality be objective?

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Verdanty said:
Polygamy is a sin today that automatically consigns one to hell
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Having two wives does not automatically consign one to hell. I can’t type that with a straight face…😜

Nor does having an abortion. There is more to morality than an action. There is also the mind, heart, knowledge, will. Furthermore, some people repent after the action.
 
REALLY:open_mouth:

And that position is based on exactly what evidence?

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
I’m not sure why you ask this. We’ve spoken before I think, so I recall that you know that there are criteria or conditions to mortal sin. Those conditions are not automatically met. Sometimes one is coerced or ignorant. A 10 year old girl coerced by her parents into undergoing an abortion is not fully willing the action. Her parents are the ones who are responsible for it. Similarly, someone with two wives who later repents (but he still may have obligations that remain towards the family that must be honored) is not automatically consigned to hell.
 
Polygamy is against the natural law and divine law and has always been since the beginning of the human race. So, what are we to make of the polygamy of some of the patriarchs and kings of Old Testament times? Sin, beginning with Adam and Eve’s sin, marred the true nature of marriage which God intended from the beginning as well as the harmonious relationship between husband and wife… Polygamy and divorce are defects of God’s intention for marriage between one man and one woman for life from the beginning. As Jesus said, Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of the Israelites hearts and probably to avoid wife murder. It appears God allowed or permitted polygamy as well in Old Testament times, overlooking this practice as it were but without commanding it. It was reserved for Jesus Christ to re-institute marriage between one man and one woman for life as God originally intended it. The Old Law given by God to Moses does not appear to outlaw polygamy nor does it appear to embrace it as natural or the ideal as it were of marriage as a reading of the first human couple, Adam and Eve, in the first chapters of Genesis make plain.

Various christian writers have offered explanations concerning the polygamy practiced by some of the Israelite patriarches and kings. For example, St Thomas Aquinas’ opinion is that a dispensation was granted to the Israelites by an internal inspiration from God from the law of having only one wife at a time in order to insure the multiplication of offspring to be brought up in the worship of the one true God. For at this time in salvation history, the chosen people of God were the descendants of Abraham who were descended from him by carnal generation. In the christian era, the chosen people of God are the reborn sons and daughters of God by spiritual regeneration such as in baptism. And thus, a dispensation from the law of which St Thomas’ speaks about is not necessary now. As the holy patriarchs are generally held up to us as models of virtue and righteousness even from the holy scriptures themselves, although I would not say that they were all entirely faultless as the scriptures recounts some of their misdeeds such as David’s adultery with Bathsheeba, some might classify the opinion of St Thomas of saving face as it were of the polygamy in the Old Testament. It does appear that polygamy was not expressly condemned by God under the Old Law and so the taking of more than one wife at this time does not appear to have been a violation of the Old Testament law. The Old Law while good and holy was imperfect. The perfection of the law of God was reserved to the life, work, and teaching of Jesus Christ.

Msgr. Charles Pope is not so ready to excuse the Israelite patriarchs of their polygamous practice. Here is a link to an article he wrote titled ‘Don’t Do Polygamy - On the Polygamy of the Patriarchs and the Problems it Produces’

http://blog.adw.org/2011/06/dont-do...-the-patriarchs-and-the-problems-it-produces/
 
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(continued)

Though polygamy is against the natural law, at least some of the peoples of the earth including the Israelites before the time of Christ seemed to be ignorant of the monogamous nature of marriage although the Israelites would have been aware of the monogamous marriage of the first human couple, Adam and Eve, in their scriptures. The divinely instituted monogamous marriage of Adam and Eve as the model for all marriages appears to have got lost through the course of human history even among the Israelite patriarchs and kings. The holy Israelite patriarchs could possibly be excused for ignorance of the natural law concerning the monogamous nature of marriage as well as from the influence of the culture they lived in at the times. This ignorance of the natural law concerning the monogamous nature of marriage carried over even under the law of Moses as it appears that God did not expressly command the Israelites under the law of Moses that a man could not have more than one wife. So, the argument here is ignorance of the natural law and without an external and revelatory express command of God such as the Ten Commandments of the Decalogue.

So, it does not necessarily follow that morality is not objective because of the polygamy practiced by some of the Israelite patriarchs and kings which under the new law of Christ is a grave offense. As God through Moses permitted divorce under the Old Law so did he permit polygamy at this time. But permitting does not mean God is in favor of it. Aquinas is of the opinion that a dispensation was granted to the patriarchs through an internal inspiration from God so that the taking of more than one wife was not a sinful act. I think Msgr. Charles Pope falls more into the camp that the taking of more than one wife was wrong. Aquinas would agree with this if not for a dispensation. Ignorance, even invinsible ignorance, could also play a part here and invinsible ignorance excuses one from culpability. In this respect, what Aquinas says about the matter at hand could be of help here. Aquinas argues that the precept of having only one wife involves the secondary precepts of the natural law which are like conclusions drawn from the principle precepts of the natural law. Secondary precepts are not as readily known to man as the principle precepts and thus ignorance or error can result. The secondary precepts of the natural law are just as binding as the principle precepts but they are not so readily understood or known.
 
“By Christ’s institution the Church is its guardian and teacher, having been endowed with a unique assistance of the Holy Spirit in order to guard and teach it in its most exact integrity.” (Pope St. John Paul II, Redemptor Hominis, 12).

“Being responsible for that truth also means loving it and seeking the most exact understanding of it, in order to bring it closer to ourselves and others in all its saving power, its splendour and its profundity joined with simplicity. This love and this aspiration to understand the truth must go hand in hand, as is confirmed by the histories of the saints in the Church.” (Ibid., 19)

You describe that you have no hope for truth. This is a spiritual sickness. People are often too fond of their own ideas and those ideas provide no place for the Church and her magisterium. You need a tender witness to the exact understanding of your own disordered self-esteem. The adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

“The beginning of wisdom, get wisdom, and with all thy possession purchase prudence.” (Prov 4:7, Vulg.) That is, no response to Jesus and Mary is good unless it is unconditional. (cf. Pope Francis, 30 June 2014) “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”

“There is a way which seemeth just to a man: but the ends thereof lead to death.” (Prov 14:12, Vulg.) Faith is certain. Bonaventure gives a fourfold way in seeking the truth in his commentary on Luke, He says, meditate with leisure, read with eagerness, learn with meekness, and judge with certitude

"The kingdom belongs to the poor and lowly, which means those who have accepted it with humble hearts. Jesus is sent to “preach good news to the poor”; he declares them blessed, for “theirs is the kingdom of heaven.” (CCC 544)
 
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An unconditional response to the invitation of God, that is with the initial joy and ease of his gospel to undergo a transit from a life to sin to a life of penance, is the only response to perceive the objectivity of the gospel. The subject of the soul needs to be in a mode of poorness and lowliness.

“This is how God inspired me, Brother Francis, to embark upon a life of penance. When I was in sin, the sight of lepers nauseated me beyond measure; but then God himself led me into their company, and I had pity on them. When I had once become acquainted with them, what had previously nauseated me became a source of spiritual and physical consolation for me. After that, I did not wait long before leaving the world.” (The Testament of S. Francis)
 
Verdanty said:
Let’s take Mosaic Law for instance. Previously it was acceptable for a man to take more than one wife, but since Jesus revealed himself it must now be one woman per man. I have heard it said that this was because God made special allowances as he revealed himself across time; he never liked polygamy but permitted it for a time because humans were weak and were not ready for the fullness of revelation.

This runs into a problem. Polygamy is a sin today that automatically consigns one to hell as adultery, since he can only have one valid wife, is a sin. Jacob and other patriarchs were guilty of this, however they are also considered saints who were taken from the bosom of Abraham to Heaven after Christ. ,

Can anyone please explain this for me?
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I think you’ve answered this in part. The fullness of revelation was made known only after God came down from heaven and became man. We can only sin based on whether or not we have full knowledge and give deliberate consent for our actions. We cannot question Gods will however dire His commands may seem to our human hearts. Very few if any that dwell with God today were without sin, and may have even misunderstood Gods will when instructing others, that includes Moses.

In Gods infinite justice and mercy he correctly binds us to the scope of our knowledge and conscience. I think we as mere humans err when we hold God to our human standards. Gods plan and His glorious mystery is not always obvious, however consistent and sound we believe our human reason to be.
 
Trishie said:
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Verdanty:
But we don’t, because the Church explicitly teaches there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
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That statement is substantially incorrect in the context of the Church’s teaching:
The Church’s true position is found in the official Catechism of the Catholic Church:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
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To be specific, that Catechism includes: “846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? 335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: … 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: …”
 
Richca said:
Polygamy is against the natural law and divine law and has always been since the beginning of the human race. So, what are we to make of the polygamy of some of the patriarchs and kings of Old Testament times? Sin, beginning with Adam and Eve’s sin, marred the true nature of marriage which God intended from the beginning as well as the harmonious relationship between husband and wife… Polygamy and divorce are defects of God’s intention for marriage between one man and one woman for life from the beginning. As Jesus said, Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of the Israelites hearts and probably to avoid wife murder. It appears God allowed or permitted polygamy as well in Old Testament times, overlooking this practice as it were but without commanding it. It was reserved for Jesus Christ to re-institute marriage between one man and one woman for life as God originally intended it. The Old Law given by God to Moses does not appear to outlaw polygamy nor does it appear to embrace it as natural or the ideal as it were of marriage as a reading of the first human couple, Adam and Eve, in the first chapters of Genesis make plain.
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Contrary to what traditional marriage advocates often argue, the marriage between one man and one woman is more of a historical rarity than they say.

Polygamy was tolerated, I guess you could say, because of the high mortality of young men and the idea was for family members who lost male resource providers and workers to be cared for. It wasn’t there because someone’s Facebook friends from college were feeling sad for not having “equality”.

The idea behind a lot of these older laws was to care for families and children, not glorify the sexual preferences of certain people…although that did happen to various extents in history and it was a very bad thing.

The problem with polygamy as we see today has to do with incest and child abuse. These seem attached to the practice as much as religious freedom (for Christians) can’t seem to coexist with so-called gay “marriage”. There are no doubt those who would say “ba, but it doesn’t have to be that way” but it is because in modern times it’s all about feelings, not logic.

Therein lies a big difference as well.
 
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