Within Catholicism, how can morality be objective?

[Verdanty]

I’ll weigh in more later, but the general idea is that one has to be aware that one is committing a sin in order to be held accountable for it. Someone who through lack of knowledge of the moral law, commits a sin, is not accountable in the same way as someone who knows it’s a sin.

Does that not beg the question why God waited so long to tell us about what offends him so much?

The perfomative aspect comes to mind as well. Men back then because of Gods decision to hold himself back on the moral spectrum was, outside of performance of ritual, rather more forgiving when it came to indulging murderous and carnal desires. This might be a crude way of putting it but while they may have been ignorant of it being an offense God essentially has told us “you can go to heaven despite being promiscuous, but you? Oh no, I’m sorry, you were born post-33AD; you had a duty to find Jesus and accept his sexual ethic.”

No. Sin is always an intentional act against God. Those things that are objectively wrong are always wrong. But we have to know it is wrong and choose to do it in order to SIN.

But we don’t, because the Church explicitly teaches there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church. Being an apostate, it doesn’t matter how strong my conviction is that Christianity is false; I’m going to hell regardless.

I don’t know the faith is true, but I’m still going to get a good roasting according to the cannons of Trent.

You are assuming things about the made up tribesman you don’t know as a fact.

I’m using a stand in for an actual phenomena the Church in Africa faces fairly frequently in its missions.

 

[Verdanty]

Verdanty, I think you posted under a different name previously, can you remind me…?

I haven’t posted here before joining a few days ago. I’ve ran across this site a few times when searching questions but never had much reason to join until recently.

Oh my. What is objective is one thing. What it means to “commit sin” is another. Only the latter can get you into trouble with God.

Unless you lived in Sodom and Gomorrah? Or happened to not be a blood relative of Noah?

 

[Rau]

Unless you lived in Sodom and Gomorrah? Or happened to not be a blood relative of Noah?

No, you’ll need to commit sin to find yourself in hell.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

But we don’t, because the Church explicitly teaches there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church

This ^ is wrong friend.

Being an apostate, it doesn’t matter how strong my conviction is that Christianity is false; I’m going to hell regardless.

I don’t know the faith is true, but I’m still going to get a good roasting according to the cannons of Trent.

What’s this? I read this whole thread and I was convinced that you thought your position was the right one…and here, you have abandoned your conscience and surrendered to the Council of Trent of all things.

 

[Verdanty]

I see. So God directly executes people with brimstone from the sky, preventing them from fulfilling their telos of getting to know him, who aren’t guilty at all of sin. I’m not trying to be awkward, merely each step at the moment seems to open another can of worms and I seek consistency of application in all things, since moral objectivism necessitates this.

That’s…Well I suppose that’s some comfort for all the dead Egyptian firstborns. But is that not a new innovation in the post-Vatican II church? I certainly cannot correlate such an opinion with the Church Fathers, Trent or the Syllabus of Errors; take Tertullian the father of Western Theology for instance…

“At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

Sage philosophers being his favored term to describe non-Christians, who presumably do not know the faith is the one true faith.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Dave Cullen may have said it best “a moral absolutist will always defeat a moral relativist”.

There are exceptions, but the scenario he describes is playing out even as we speak.

 

[Verdanty]

This ^ is wrong friend.

I should clarify, it is not the historical teaching of the Catholic Church. I know there are attempts to be more ecumenical (I’m thinking mostly about Nostra Aetate; the document that states Christians, Jews and Muslims all worship the same God and are brothers in faith) but historically…This doesn’t really match up with what the leaders have said.

I’m sure you know what Boniface had to say on the matter, but for a few other examples…

Saint Irenaeus (died A.D. 202): “[The Church] is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. On this account we are bound to avoid them… We hear it declared of the unbelieving and the blinded of this world that they shall not inherit the world of life which is to come… Resist them in defense of the only true and life giving faith, which the Church has received from the Apostles and imparted to her sons.” (Against Heresies , Book III)

Origen (died A.D. 254): “Let no man deceive himself. Outside this house, that is, outside the Church no one is saved.” (In Iesu Nave homiliae )

Saint Cyprian (died A.D. 258): “He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for your Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: `he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.’ Whosoever breaks the peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ.” (Unity of the Catholic Church )

“He who does not hold this unity, does not hold the law of God, does not hold the faith of the Father and the Son, does not hold life and salvation.” (Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Latina , Father Migne)

“Nay, though they should suffer death for the confession of the Name, the guilt of such men is not removed even by their blood…No martyr can he be who is not in the Church.” (Ancient Christian Writers )

Bishop Firmilean (died A.D. 269): “What is the greatness of his error, and what the depth of his blindness, who says that remission of sins can be granted in the synagogues of heretics, and does not abide on the foundation of the one Church.” (Anti-Nicene Fathers )

Lactantius (died A.D. 310): “It is the Catholic Church alone which retains true worship. This is the fountain of truth, this is the abode of the Faith, this is the temple of God; into which if anyone shall not enter, or from which if anyone shall go out, he is a stranger to the hope of life and eternal salvation.” (The Divine Institutes )

Saint Jerome (died A.D. 420): “As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is, with the Chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the Church is built. …This is the ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails. …And as for heretics, I have never spared them; on the contrary, I have seen to it in every possible way that the Church’s enemies are also my enemies.” (Manual of Patrology and History of Theology )

 

[Verdanty]

What’s this? I read this whole thread and I was convinced that you thought your position was the right one…and here, you have abandoned your conscience and surrendered to the Council of Trent of all things.

Oh I do believe my position is correct. I am an atheist and a moral relativist, but I am trying to understand the position of moral objectivism; or rather the lack of it in practice.

As an apostate I do not believe, but as a Catholic do you not believe in the cannons of the Church that teach I am going to roast for all eternity; despite the fact I do not know the Catholic faith is the one true faith and in in my heart with strong conviction I believe otherwise.

 

[Verdanty]

Would you care to explain?

Dave Cullen may have said it best “a moral absolutist will always defeat a moral relativist”.

There are exceptions, but the scenario he describes is playing out even as we speak.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Oh I do believe my position is correct. I am an atheist and a moral relativist, but I am trying to understand the position of moral objectivism; or rather the lack of it in practice.

Oh okay, I thought you were an “angry” Catholic. I should have clicked your avatar, but so many people here don’t fill in their religious affiliation so I didn’t bother.

Well here’s the thing, its been very popular for the last several years for Catholics to talk about moral relativism. You need to take that term with a grain of salt. There are of course, strictly speaking, relative considerations for every act in life - Amoris letitia is good at pointing this out, especially with it’s use of Thomistic philosophy.

As an apostate I do not believe, but as a Catholic do you not believe in the cannons of the Church that teach I am going to roast for all eternity; despite the fact I do not know the Catholic faith is the one true faith and in in my heart with strong conviction I believe otherwise.

Is that word that I italicized supposed to be there. Because if it is, I can’t make sense of that sentence. I don’t know what you are saying there.

 

[Verdanty]

Oh okay, I thought you were an “angry” Catholic. I should have clicked your avatar, but so many people here don’t fill in their religious affiliation so I didn’t bother.

I see now, thank you for the suggestion.

Is that word that I italicized supposed to be there. Because if it is, I can’t make sense of that sentence. I don’t know what you are saying there.

What I’m trying to say is this.

A) I do not believe what the Catholic Church says to be true.
B) Having been Baptized as a Catholic, the Church considers me an Apostate rather than a non-believer.
C) The Church councils have historically taught that apostates (alongside schismatics etc) are destined for hell.
D) Because I am an apostate, I am going to hell according to the church.

In this case it does not matter I do not know “the truth”, because if I knew “the truth” I would not be an Atheist. In either case despite not knowing the Catholic faith is true, I am still going to hell regardless to my actions not being made in full knowledge, since if there was a God why would I choose to offend him if he is indeed the source of all good and he’s going to roast me forever for doing so?

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I’m having a hard time with this because you seem to be refuting yourself. I don’t know if you are doing this on purpose, or if you are just not very articulate. I am not very articulate either, I am also a very slow at typing.

Why do you state what you state in D, when you are also stating A?

Also, if you are aware that you have a deficiency in knowledge regarding Catholicism then how could you come to the conclusion that, according to Catholic teaching, you are going to hell?

 

[Verdanty]

Why do you state what you state in D, when you are also stating A?

I’m not stating I believe D, I’m stating what the Church itself appears to teach about individuals like myself.

I don’t believe there is a hell. The Catholic Church however teaches that there is and a list of individuals for a variety of reasons are going there, apostates being one of them.

I’m trying to show how that it doesn’t matter if you have full knowledge or not, there are times that individuals will be punished even though they may not even be aware they have committed a sin or have no reason to believe they have.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

I’m trying to show how that it doesn’t matter if you have full knowledge or not, there are times that individuals will be punished even though they may not even be aware they have committed a sin or have no reason to believe they have.

But that’s wrong. You may find a teaching like that from the Middle Ages, but that sort of thing is no longer taught.

 

[Rau]

God directly executes people with brimstone from the sky, preventing them from fulfilling their telos

We were speaking of mortal sin and hell. Are you settled now that hell requires a committing of sin - something different than objective sin?

I’ll leave you to your scattergun rambling now.

 

[BornInMarch]

I should clarify what the terms mean.

A Moral Universalist (not to be confused with Objectivism, a philosophy espoused by Ayn Rand) is someone who believes that there are firm moral truths that hold across time and space. Ex: “Owning other humans as slaves is unethical in all circumstances, and anyone who thinks otherwise is just wrong”

A Moral Relativist is someone who believes that a society decides it’s own rules. Ex: “Owning other humans as slaves is unethical in the modern age, but in the eighteenth century it was entirely ethical because society accepted it”

A Moral Subjectivist is like a moral relativist on an individual level; they believe that every individual decides what is ethical or unethical on their own. Ex: “If I decide that owning other humans as slaves is ethical, then it is ethical”

In Christianity, Moral Relativism and Moral Subjectivism are seen in a negative light because they come off as being excuses, either for people in different cultures (“Who are we to force our morality on this tribe by telling them not to eat every third baby?”) or for yourself (“Me cheating on my wife is only evil from your point of view”).
In the bible God regularly forces his morals on others, going so far as to kill people for cultural practices he disapproves of (such as raping travelers), and he passes laws that apply to the whole world. This suggests that Christianity should take a universalist approach to morality.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

ok , first off , do you understand how Catholics should be accurately

1. reading and interpreting the Bible
2. how scripture and tradition works.

theres 2 new topics.

its best to understand these two before posting about Old Testament and New Testament issues and how they relate to modern Catholics .

and seriously, if you are considering a Ph. D in any area pertaining to Catholic faith and peoples and history and Bible, you have a lot to learn first

 

[Vico]

1Lord1Faith:

Oh okay, I thought you were an “angry” Catholic. I should have clicked your avatar, but so many people here don’t fill in their religious affiliation so I didn’t bother.

I see now, thank you for the suggestion.

Is that word that I italicized supposed to be there. Because if it is, I can’t make sense of that sentence. I don’t know what you are saying there.

What I’m trying to say is this.

A) I do not believe what the Catholic Church says to be true.
B) Having been Baptized as a Catholic, the Church considers me an Apostate rather than a non-believer.
C) The Church councils have historically taught that apostates (alongside schismatics etc) are destined for hell.
D) Because I am an apostate, I am going to hell according to the church.

In this case it does not matter I do not know “the truth”, because if I knew “the truth” I would not be an Atheist. In either case despite not knowing the Catholic faith is true, I am still going to hell regardless to my actions not being made in full knowledge, since if there was a God why would I choose to offend him if he is indeed the source of all good and he’s going to roast me forever for doing so?

• You do not know the future do you? so you do not know what will happen before your death, your final state.
• Anyone that is saved (determined at the time of death) is a member of the Church of Christ and that Church subsists in the Catholic Church.

Catechism

1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

 

[PJM]

First my friend one MUST recognize and separate what are practices [THEY ARE SUBJECTIVE] from Moral Truths with are Objective.

Secondly one must understand that GOD as the Origin or Good, and the Giver of his LAWS; alone CAN change them…but no other authority, except God can do so,

From God’s perspective what he changed was to facilitate salvation of Souls on a matter that was widely being abused. And it is NOTABLE that this was at a time when God [Yahweh] was TRYING to teach and conform the chosen people to HIS Will, so he did away with a distraction.

It is imprudent, even irresponsible to attempt to compare those early faith-formation- times to our PRESENT times under GRACE.

When we LOOK for trouble it is FAR easier to find it.

PRAY much friend
Patrick

 

[teresa63]

Catholic objective moral truth is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It’s that simple.

The CCC is based on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition (as passed down by the practicing Catholic Church). An individual conscience that is correctly-informed by this objective moral truth should be aware (have full knowledge) of any WILLFUL transgression committed. And, IF unrepentant, this transgressor could be in danger of eternal death. Only God can forsee the eternal destiny of each person prior to his/her death. We cannot. Jesus will be the eternal judge of each life.
And I would imagine that meeting with Jesus face-to-face could move anyone’s ‘earthly mountain.’