Witness of the holy spirit? huh?

[junostarlighter]

So I tell a Protestant pastor tells me that he accepts the Bible as inspired as follows:

“I discover the same truth through the historical veracity of the resurrection and the witness of the Holy Spirit.”

I point out that not all of the NT mentions the resurrection and even some of the gnostic gospels mention the resurrection. Just because there’s an ancient book that talks about the resurrection doesn’t mean it’s the Word of God. I also tell him the “witness of the holy spirit” is vague as one could ever get and that it reduces accepting scripture based on a warm fuzzy feeling and conviction. He gets mad at that one and quotes the following scripture passages to support his “witness of the holy spirit.”

1 John 5:10
Romans 8:16-17
Ephesians 1:17
Hebrews 10:15-16
1 Corinthians 2:9-16

I read these and I don’t understand what kind of point he’s trying to make by quoting these. I’m sure he’s taking them way out of context. Can anyone help me dissect this? Feel free to go into as much detail as you’d like. I want to be able to give this guy a good response.

 

[Helper]

So I tell a Protestant pastor tells me that he accepts the Bible as inspired as follows:

“I discover the same truth through the historical veracity of the resurrection and the witness of the Holy Spirit.”

I point out that not all of the NT mentions the resurrection and even some of the gnostic gospels mention the resurrection. Just because there’s an ancient book that talks about the resurrection doesn’t mean it’s the Word of God. I also tell him the “witness of the holy spirit” is vague as one could ever get and that it reduces accepting scripture based on a warm fuzzy feeling and conviction. He gets mad at that one and quotes the following scripture passages to support his “witness of the holy spirit.”

1 John 5:10
Romans 8:16-17
Ephesians 1:17
Hebrews 10:15-16
1 Corinthians 2:9-16

I read these and I don’t understand what kind of point he’s trying to make by quoting these. I’m sure he’s taking them way out of context. Can anyone help me dissect this? Feel free to go into as much detail as you’d like. I want to be able to give this guy a good response.

(Acts 2:38-39) “Peter answered ‘and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus
Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for al those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God will call to himself.”

(John 14:26) “but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

I am not sure what it is you seem to be disturbed by, is it because some one told you that a Christian should be baptized with the Holy Spirit?

 

[RyanL]

I read these and I don’t understand what kind of point he’s trying to make by quoting these.

What he’s trying to tell you is that he has the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit “convicted” him of the veracity of the Scriptures. It’s the same approach that John Calvin used when trying to justify the canon of Scripture without the Church’s authority. Incidentally, it’s also the same approach used by the Mormons – they call it a “burning in the bosom”.

You might ask him what the Holy Spirit told him about why the book of 3 John should be in the Bible, since it’s only 14 verses long and never once mentions Christ. I’d be surprised by his answer. You might also ask if he didn’t feel “convicted” by the Holy Spirit regarding 3 John whether or not he could simply throw it out of the Bible. Again, I’d be surprised with his answer.

Recommended reading: Proving Inspiration.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Helper]

What he’s trying to tell you is that he has the Holy Spirit, and that the Holy Spirit “convicted” him of the veracity of the Scriptures. It’s the same approach that John Calvin used when trying to justify the canon of Scripture without the Church’s authority. Incidentally, it’s also the same approach used by the Mormons – they call it a “burning in the bosom”.

You might ask him what the Holy Spirit told him about why the book of 3 John should be in the Bible, since it’s only 14 verses long and never once mentions Christ. I’d be surprised by his answer. You might also ask if he didn’t feel “convicted” by the Holy Spirit regarding 3 John whether or not he could simply throw it out of the Bible. Again, I’d be surprised with his answer.

Recommended reading: Proving Inspiration.

God Bless,
RyanL

I am curious Ryan, do you or do you not believe that the Holy Spirit teaches us about God and his Word?

My understanding about the Bible, including (3 John) is that it is the Word of God. The Holy Spirit had the Church choose the writings that were consistent with Jesus’ teachings.

Jesus be with you.
Helper

 

[Writer]

So I tell a Protestant pastor tells me that he accepts the Bible as inspired as follows:

“I discover the same truth through the historical veracity of the resurrection and the witness of the Holy Spirit.”

I point out that not all of the NT mentions the resurrection and even some of the gnostic gospels mention the resurrection. Just because there’s an ancient book that talks about the resurrection doesn’t mean it’s the Word of God. I also tell him the “witness of the holy spirit” is vague as one could ever get and that it reduces accepting scripture based on a warm fuzzy feeling and conviction. He gets mad at that one and quotes the following scripture passages to support his “witness of the holy spirit.”

1 John 5:10
Romans 8:16-17
Ephesians 1:17
Hebrews 10:15-16
1 Corinthians 2:9-16

I read these and I don’t understand what kind of point he’s trying to make by quoting these. I’m sure he’s taking them way out of context. Can anyone help me dissect this? Feel free to go into as much detail as you’d like. I want to be able to give this guy a good response.

Be careful not to undermine this pastor’s faith before giving him some real sense of what Catholics believe. I think a better approach would be to explain the fullness of the Catholic Church–rather than the emptyness of his own denomination.

 

[scylla]

My sense from the Holy Spirit tells me that Wisdom is part of the Bible.

So did the Holy Spirit tell all Christians up until a few hundred years ago.

This is not logical that the Holy Spirit would speak differently to Christians a few hundred years ago and nowdays change, so this is not a reliable way to tell if books of the Bible are part of the Bible.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[mercygate]

I am curious Ryan, do you or do you not believe that the Holy Spirit teaches us about God and his Word?

**My understanding about the Bible, including (3 John) is that it is the Word of God. **The Holy Spirit had the Church choose the writings that were consistent with Jesus’ teachings.

Jesus be with you.
Helper

Helper, can you show us how it is that you understand?

Catholics do, indeed, believe that the Holy Spirit teaches us about God and his Word, and that he does so in a privileged way through the Church he promised to build upon the rock of Peter – “the church of the living God, thepillar and bulwark of the truth.” (I Tim 3:15)

 

[Helper]

A human teacher gives instructions using words that to him or her express what they are trying to teach. They may or may not know what their words mean to the student. The Holy Spirit knows the student, how much the student already understands, the student’s foundation, and emotional make up, so because of this and more, can be the best teacher.

St. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

May Jesus be with you,
Helper

 

[mercygate]

A human teacher gives instructions using words that to him or her express what they are trying to teach. They may or may not know what their words mean to the student. The Holy Spirit knows the student, how much the student already understands, the student’s foundation, and emotional make up, so because of this and more, can be the best teacher.

Nice example. I think Catholics would agree that this sums up much of our own personal experience of “understanding” when it comes to spiritual things.

Helper:

St. Paul told us (1 Corinthians 2:13-14) “Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. An unspiritual person is one who does not accept anything of the Spirit of God he sees it all as nonsense; it is beyond his understanding because it can only be understood by means of the Spirit.”

Uh-huh. I’m not sure how to connect the dots here. Are you implying that the Catholic position is “unspiritual” because it includes (and, indeed, accords primacy of place) to the teaching authority of the Church in addition to one’s own personal sense of the Holy Spirit’s guiding?

The title of this thread is “witness of the Holy Spirit.” You seem to be saying that you “believe” because you “feel.” Do I understand you correctly, or am I missing something here?

 

[Helper]

I don’t think I’m making any statement about how Catholics or anyone learns about God and his Word. Also from my experience the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not about feelings, even though some times there may be a feeling of peace and warmth. I personally would not trust my spiritual well-being on a feeling. I believe feelings can be too easily manipulated.

What I am saying if I personally want to know what God wants me to understand about him I ask him. Also I don’t expect Spirit filled people to ask me when they want to know something about God.

May Jesus be with you,
Helper

 

[mercygate]

I don’t think I’m making any statement about how Catholics or anyone learns about God and his Word. Also from my experience the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not about feelings, even though some times there may be a feeling of peace and warmth. I personally would not trust my spiritual well-being on a feeling. I believe feelings can be too easily manipulated.

What I am saying if I personally want to know what God wants me to understand about him I ask him. Also I don’t expect Spirit filled people to ask me when they want to know something about God.

May Jesus be with you,
Helper

Ah. That is more clear. Thanks.

 

[RyanL]

Helper,

First…WELCOME! I don’t know if you were registered with us before the Great Forum Crash of '06, but if you’re new here you should know that you’re welcome as long as you’re respectful (even if you strongly disagree with us!). We’re happy to have you!

Now…

I am curious Ryan, do you or do you not believe that the Holy Spirit teaches us about God and his Word?

Of course I believe! I’m a Catholic, and this is orthodox teaching.

Helper:

My understanding about the Bible, including (3 John) is that it is the Word of God.

I readily agree, but the OP’s question was more along the lines of how do you know. The pastor seemed to say because he “felt” it to be true, and that the Holy Spirit was the definite cause of the “feelings”.

My question in return was whether or not the pastor “felt” that way about 3 John, independently examined. It seems that there’s little in it which would produce this highly subjective “feeling” of conviction.

Helper:

The Holy Spirit had the Church choose the writings that were consistent with Jesus’ teachings.

This is very much in line with what the Church teaches, and precisely what John Calvin rejected. The Church chose the writings; there was no uniform consent, but rather great contention between holy men of God regarding the canon. If, as Calvin asserted, the Church does not have authority…there’s no reason to trust that they got it right. If the Church has authority, you’d better listen (and that probably includes what the Church has to say about the meaning of Scripture as well).

Calvin rejected authority, and relied on the “burning in the bosom”. This is also what the Mormons rely on to prove the Book of Mormon. My point was that this is a bad idear, and I think you agree with that position when you state the following:

I personally would not trust my spiritual well-being on a feeling. I believe feelings can be too easily manipulated.

I very much agree.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Scott_Waddell]

A Catholic need not bother debunking “witness of the Holy Spirit” since we believe that anyway. What he is trying to say I think in a round about way is this witness disposes of the need for an authoritative church. T’ain’t so. As an example we all have the “witness of the Holy Spirit” much like many of us have citizenship in the United States. Citizenship gives us lots of rights and priviledges, but not just any ol’ citizen can negotiate a treaty with a foreign country or just go over to the circuit court, plop down on the bench and start issuing rulings. So it is with the issue of which books belong in the Bible. Since there is no indication in the Bible, one must go to an extra-biblical source. Hence the need for an authority as opposed to everyone in the peanut gallery gluing together dozens of radically different scriptures and appealing to the Holy Spirit for validation. This runs the non-Catholic into the elephant in the living room: the mere existence of the Church for 1500 years.

Scott

 

[Verita]

“I discover the same truth through the historical veracity of the resurrection and the witness of the Holy Spirit.”

I’m not sure I understand the first part of that statement. Is he saying he believes the Bible because the ressurection is historically accurate? I’m sure there are alot of historians out there that would beg to differ. What he is saying is backwards. We believe in the ressurection because the Bible teaches it. Something we know is true because it is in the Bible cannot at the same time prove that the Bible is true. That is circular reasoning at its worst.

And you might confront him with the reality that if the Holy Spirit is supposed to be showing us the truth of the Bible he’s doing an awfully bad job of it. Every branch of Protestantism believes different and contradictory things about the Bible. Why would the Spirit allow this if he can “convict” us of the truth of Scripture the way many Protestants believe? Furthermore, the Spirit can’t exactly be detected. We are physical and He is Spiritual and we can’t see him or hear him. How do we know when he is trying to tell us something and when it’s our own wishful thinking or worse a whisper from the enemy? Only shortly before the Forum crashed there was a poster who was convinced that the book of James was placed in the Bible by the Spirit to show us what not to believe. And he believed the Spirit had led him to this knowledge. Anyone can think the Spirit is speaking to him, because as humans its nearly impossible to actually tell.

 

[Helper]

A Catholic need not bother debunking “witness of the Holy Spirit” since we believe that anyway. What he is trying to say I think in a round about way is this witness disposes of the need for an authoritative church. T’ain’t so. As an example we all have the “witness of the Holy Spirit” much like many of us have citizenship in the United States. Citizenship gives us lots of rights and priviledges, but not just any ol’ citizen can negotiate a treaty with a foreign country or just go over to the circuit court, plop down on the bench and start issuing rulings. So it is with the issue of which books belong in the Bible. Since there is no indication in the Bible, one must go to an extra-biblical source. Hence the need for an authority as opposed to everyone in the peanut gallery gluing together dozens of radically different scriptures and appealing to the Holy Spirit for validation. This runs the non-Catholic into the elephant in the living room: the mere existence of the Church for 1500 years.

Scott

Scott, I don’t understand, what do you believe the role of the Holy Spirit is in a Christian’s life? How do you think he manifests himself?

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Scott, I don’t understand, what do you believe the role of the Holy Spirit is in a Christian’s life? How do you think he manifests himself?

I believe this:

742 “Because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, 'Abba! Father!”’ (Gal 4:6).

743 From the beginning to the end of time, whenever God sends his Son, he always sends his Spirit: their mission is conjoined and inseparable.

744 In the fullness of time the Holy Spirit completes in Mary all the preparations for Christ’s coming among the People of God. By the action of the Holy Spirit in her, the Father gives the world Emmanuel “God-with-us” (Mt 1:23).

745 The Son of God was consecrated as Christ (Messiah) by the anointing of the Holy Spirit at his Incarnation (cf. Ps 2:6-7).

746 By his Death and his Resurrection, Jesus is constituted in glory as Lord and Christ (cf. Acts 2:36). From his fullness, he poured out the Holy Spirit on the apostles and the Church.

747 The Holy Spirit, whom Christ the head pours out on his members, builds, animates, and sanctifies the Church. She is the sacrament of the Holy Trinity’s communion with men.

 

[Helper]

I’m not sure I understand the first part of that statement. Is he saying he believes the Bible because the ressurection is historically accurate? I’m sure there are alot of historians out there that would beg to differ. What he is saying is backwards. We believe in the ressurection because the Bible teaches it. Something we know is true because it is in the Bible cannot at the same time prove that the Bible is true. That is circular reasoning at its worst.

And you might confront him with the reality that if the Holy Spirit is supposed to be showing us the truth of the Bible he’s doing an awfully bad job of it. Every branch of Protestantism believes different and contradictory things about the Bible. Why would the Spirit allow this if he can “convict” us of the truth of Scripture the way many Protestants believe? Furthermore, the Spirit can’t exactly be detected. We are physical and He is Spiritual and we can’t see him or hear him. How do we know when he is trying to tell us something and when it’s our own wishful thinking or worse a whisper from the enemy? Only shortly before the Forum crashed there was a poster who was convinced that the book of James was placed in the Bible by the Spirit to show us what not to believe. And he believed the Spirit had led him to this knowledge. Anyone can think the Spirit is speaking to him, because as humans its nearly impossible to actually tell.

A person who is full of the Holy Spirit, would they do evil? Would they live the Word of God, or would they not? Jesus told us to judge a tree by its fruits.

Now if the Holy Spirit leads you to live God’s Word, does it matter what others tell you what they think he is telling them? By the way the Holy Spirit has many ways to communicate with us.

Jesus can speak to us, so if you have a problem about what someone says about God why don’t you just ask him?

 

[Helper]

I believe this:

Scott, Let me quote you a few more: (1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything **and his **own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ Who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”
(John 14:26)“but the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

(Hebrews 8:10-12) “No, this is the covenant I will make with the House of Israel when those days arrive-it is the Lord who speaks. I will put my laws into their minds and write them on their hearts. Then I will be their God and they shall be my people. There will be no further need for neighbour to try to teach neighbour, or brother to say to brother, ’Learn to know the Lord’. No, they will all know me, the least no less than the greatest, since I will forgive their iniquities and never call their sins to mind.”

 

[Scott_Waddell]

None of those quotes dispose the fact that Christ founded a Church and gave it authority to teach.

 

[Helper]

None of those quotes dispose the fact that Christ founded a Church and gave it authority to teach.

Scott, I am not here to do that. What I’m asking you; what role does the Holy Spirit play in a Christian’s life, in your opinion?