Witness of the holy spirit? huh?

[KathyH]

Understood. But the passages you quote from Paul speak of gifts of the Spirit (Catholics are *REAL *big on Gifts of the Spirit: Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Counsel, Piety, Fortitude, and Fear of the Lord!).

Not a single syllable in the Scriptures you cite links the knowledge of God with the Baptism of the Spirit. They talk about wisdom and knowing – gifts of the Spirit. But you specifically stated: **Unless a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit they will never know God. **

So do I understand correctly that you do not distinguish between receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?

If you haven’t been baptized with the Holy Spirit, given the Spirit of God, you don’t have the Spirit in you.

 

[mercygate]

If you haven’t been baptized with the Holy Spirit, given the Spirit of God, you don’t have the Spirit in you.

So you do not distinguish between the actual grace conferred by the Holy Spirit and baptism with the Holy Spirit.

How do you deal with the distinctions apparent in Scripture? I think a Pentecostal would say that unless you speak in tongues (by which, I believe they mean what we would call “ecstatic utterances” – a kind of babbling without real language, although they surely would prefer speaking in a real language, unknown to the speaker), as wellyou are not baptized with the Spirit, nor are you saved ).

Your understanding of Spirit baptism seems to be quite different from that, but for the life of me I do not understand how you equate “gift of the Spriit” to “baptism with the Spirit.”

 

[KathyH]

So you do not distinguish between the actual grace conferred by the Holy Spirit and baptism with the Holy Spirit.

How do you deal with the distinctions apparent in Scripture? I think a Pentecostal would say that unless you speak in tongues (by which, I believe they mean what we would call “ecstatic utterances” – a kind of babbling without real language, although they surely would prefer speaking in a real language, unknown to the speaker), as wellyou are not baptized with the Spirit, nor are you saved ).

Your understanding of Spirit baptism seems to be quite different from that, but for the life of me I do not understand how you equate “gift of the Spriit” to “baptism with the Spirit.”

Peter tells us after one is baptized in the name of Jesus they will receive the Holy Spirit. Now many churches baptize children and for the most part the gifts of the Holy Spirit seem to be an adult thing, so some churches have the laying of hands, by a bishop, or some leader when a person becomes an adult and this is supposed to be when a Christian receives the Holy Spirit.

(Acts 2:38-39) “Peter answered ‘and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus
Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for al those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God will call to himself.”

Now being a Christian all my life and having watched many people be baptized with water, and also having hands laid on them by a bishop, I have never seen any evidence of gifts the Holy Spirit at that time. Some people who I know who have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, have witnessed to me of having received the gift at other times.

I am sure there are people who have the Holy Spirit, but don’t advertise the fact, but Jesus said if we have a lamp we don’t keep it hidden.

The presence of the Holy Spirit, from my experience, is very evident within a person. He lets himself be known, and there is no doubt that it is God’s Spirit.

 

[mercygate]

Peter tells us after one is baptized in the name of Jesus they will receive the Holy Spirit. Now many churches baptize children and for the most part the gifts of the Holy Spirit seem to be an adult thing, so some churches have the laying of hands, by a bishop, or some leader when a person becomes an adult and this is supposed to be when a Christian receives the Holy Spirit.

(Acts 2:38-39) “Peter answered ‘and everyone of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus
Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for al those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God will call to himself.”

Now being a Christian all my life and having watched many people be baptized with water, and also having hands laid on them by a bishop, I have never seen any evidence of gifts the Holy Spirit at that time. Some people who I know who have the gifts of the Holy Spirit, have witnessed to me of having received the gift at other times.

I am sure there are people who have the Holy Spirit, but don’t advertise the fact, but Jesus said if we have a lamp we don’t keep it hidden.

The presence of the Holy Spirit, from my experience, is very evident within a person. He lets himself be known, and there is no doubt that it is God’s Spirit.

So now you agree that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a different thing from receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Kathy, seem to have a relatively unclear idea of how this works in your constellation. I hope that this discussion is helping you to sharpen your iron.

 

[KathyH]

So now you agree that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a different thing from receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Kathy, seem to have a relatively unclear idea of how this works in your constellation. I hope that this discussion is helping you to sharpen your iron.

I don’t know who is confused here? Why wouldn’t someone who has the Holy Spirit be given the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

Now some people received the Holy Spirit with the accompanying signs, while just listening to Peter. They then received the baptism of water. There are places in scriptures where the Apostles needed to lay hands on disciples for them to receive the Holy Spirit. I would say that is the traditional way of being baptized in the Holy Spirit, but obviously it doesn’t need to be done in this manner.

 

[mercygate]

I don’t know who is confused here? Why wouldn’t someone who has the Holy Spirit be given the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

What I thought you were saying is that you had to be baptized in the Holy Spirit to receive the gifts.

KathyH:

Now some people received the Holy Spirit with the accompanying signs, while just listening to Peter. They then received the baptism of water.

Right: they received the Holy Spirit. So you ARE saying that receiving the Holy Spirit and being baptized in the Holy Spirit are the same thing?

KathyH:

There are places in scriptures where the Apostles needed to lay hands on disciples for them to receive the Holy Spirit.

Clearly.

** I would say that is the traditional way of being baptized in the Holy Spirit**, but obviously it doesn’t need to be done in this manner.

So you DO say that receiving the Holy Spirit is the same thing as being baptized in the Spirit.

OK. Not that I know what it means. But though I usually see how things that seem distinct in scripture can actually be the same thing, in this case it would seem that at least for New Testament times, receiving the spirit (either directly as one of the gifts Paul refers to or by the laying on of hands, or via water baptism) is a different thing from Baptism in the Spirit.

Actually, I think there is a LOT of confusion among Christian traditions about what baptism in the Spirit is, does, and means. Catholics, of course, believe (as you appear to acknowledge) that the normative way we receive this holy power is through the sacraments of Baptism and Confirmation when an anointing with chrism both symbolizes and conveys this charism. This, of course, would not preclude the Spirit “blowing where it listeth” to use the traditional language. But normatively, that is how it happens.

C’mon and help me here, Catholic experts on the Holy Spirit. It is my understanding that Catholic Charismatics refer to an additional infilling with the spirit as a “release” so as to distinguish it from the Spirit actually conveyed in the sacraments. Any Charismatics here who can affirm/clarify/deny this?