Witness of the holy spirit? huh?

[Scott_Waddell]

Scott, I am not here to do that. What I’m asking you; what role does the Holy Spirit play in a Christian’s life, in your opinion?

My opinion is the same as mercygate and RyanL’s. I was interested in the ecclesiastical/authority aspect of the original post and offered a specualtion. Since you said you are not here to do that, I’ll move on.

Scott

 

[mercygate]

Scott, I am not here to do that. What I’m asking you; what role does the Holy Spirit play in a Christian’s life, in your opinion?

Not being cheeky, here, but Catholics don’t have “opinions.” We have well-articulated doctrine. Try The Catechism of the Catholic Church(onlline searchable).

Start with Paragraphs 683, 684, 685, 722, 723, 727, 737, 747, 739, 797, 1101, 1133, 1274, 1520

Busy, busy, busy. The Holy Spirit teaches, convicts of sin, inspires to virtue, prompts prayer, holds the Church in Truth . . . You name it, the Holy Spirit is IN it!

 

[Verita]

A person who is full of the Holy Spirit, would they do evil? Would they live the Word of God, or would they not? Jesus told us to judge a tree by its fruits.

Now if the Holy Spirit leads you to live God’s Word, does it matter what others tell you what they think he is telling them? By the way the Holy Spirit has many ways to communicate with us.

Jesus can speak to us, so if you have a problem about what someone says about God why don’t you just ask him?

Whether or not they would do evil is entirely up to them. Free Will dictates that we choose what we do and what we believe. The Holy Spirit can’t make us do anything or believe anything. The Holy Spirit could tell us the truth until he’s blue in the face (figuratively speaking of course) and we can still believe something else.

Yes, both Jesus and the Spirit have many ways of communicating with us. However, they can only communicate directly by spiritual means and since we are physical beings we cannot really detect these means. You may think you feel the Spirit, but you can’t know for sure. You can be deceived by yourself or by something worse. Jesus and the Spirit can also communicate indirectly through physical agents and this is exactly what the Church does.

And yes, it does matter if you and someone else both think the Holy Spirit is telling you two contradictory things. God cannot contradict himself. He is truth. Therefore if two people believe two contradicting things then one of them is right and one is wrong, or they could both be wrong. They cannot both be right. That is the simple nature of Truth.

 

[Helper]

Now I believe it would be a fair assumption to say most all the Catholics on this Forum have been confirmed (Confirmation), what I would like to ask is: what physical magnifications, or what special gifts have you observed after a person has been confirmed?

Now if a Christian is baptized with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit then teaches that person a scriptural truth. Lets sayMatthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;” or (Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.” Now lets say your church teaches something different, what do you do?

 

[mercygate]

Now I believe it would be a fair assumption to say most all the Catholics on this Forum have been confirmed (Confirmation), what I would like to ask is: what physical magnifications, or what special gifts have you observed after a person has been confirmed?

What is a “physical magnification?”

Helper:

Now if a Christian is baptized with the Holy Spirit and the Spirit then teaches that person a scriptural truth.

A Catholic would not say that one requires “baptism with the holy spirit” in order to be taught a biblical truth. We would call that “actual” grace – which can come to a perfect heathen, as it did to St. Augustine. The Holy Spirit can come with startling power to anyone, Christian or not, convicting them of the truth of the Gospel (otherwise there would be no converts!). We distinguish between actual grace and Sanctifying grace, which is the grace imparted to the soul via the Sacraments.

How do you understand “Baptism with [in? of?] the Holy Spirit?”

Helper:

Lets sayMatthew 5:44) “But I say this to you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you;” or (Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal.” Now lets say your church teaches something different, what do you do?

One would immediately seek out the Catholic Church, which teaches the fullnes of the Christian faith and does not teach anything in contravention of either Scripture or the Holy Spirit.

 

[Helper]

What is a “physical magnification?”

A Catholic would not say that one requires “baptism with the holy spirit” in order to be taught a biblical truth. We would call that “actual” grace – which can come to a perfect heathen, as it did to St. Augustine. The Holy Spirit can come with startling power to anyone, Christian or not, convicting them of the truth of the Gospel (otherwise there would be no converts!). We distinguish between actual grace and Sanctifying grace, which is the grace imparted to the soul via the Sacraments.

How do you understand “Baptism with [in? of?] the Holy Spirit?” One would immediately seek out the Catholic Church, which teaches the fullnes of the Christian faith and does not teach anything in contravention of either Scripture or the Holy Spirit.

If only you could convince me that was true.

 

[mercygate]

If only you could convince me that was true.

Convince you that the Catholic Church does not contradict Scripture or the Holy Spriit? It can take time, and it takes more humility than I had for years. I was a born-again Bible Christian who wandered through Anglicanism until finally, in honesty, I had to accept Christ on HIS terms – meaning HIS Church. It was a 40-year trip.

 

[scylla]

If only you could convince me that was true.

Catholic’s are not supposed to lie so you would just have to trust that he is being a faithful Catholic.

You can certainly check the Catechism and see if indeed what he said is true. We Catholics can certainly speak truth but it takes the Holy Spirit for conversion. We can’t do anything without God.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[KathyH]

Catholic’s are not supposed to lie so you would just have to trust that he is being a faithful Catholic.

You can certainly check the Catechism and see if indeed what he said is true. We Catholics can certainly speak truth but it takes the Holy Spirit for conversion. We can’t do anything without God.

In Christ
Scylla

I may be new to this forum, but even I know that being Catholic doesn’t keep one from lying. What were all those priest, who were abusing those children, doing? Were they not lying and even doing worse things?

 

[KathyH]

Convince you that the Catholic Church does not contradict Scripture or the Holy Spriit? It can take time, and it takes more humility than I had for years. I was a born-again Bible Christian who wandered through Anglicanism until finally, in honesty, I had to accept Christ on HIS terms – meaning HIS Church. It was a 40-year trip.

Does that mean what the Church says is right, no matter what the Bible says? Did God give Peter the right to change his Word?

 

[scylla]

I may be new to this forum, but even I know that being Catholic doesn’t keep one from lying. What were all those priest, who were abusing those children, doing? Were they not lying and even doing worse things?

I never said that Catholics do not lie, I said that you would have to trust that he is a faithful Catholic.

Any priest who has done evil,(thought they were an extremely small percentage) was not following Catholic teaching and therefore not faithful.
Just because some non-catholics who believe in parts of the Bible do horrible things this doesn’t invalidate the Bible. A person who is part of a non-denominational denomination, who commits fornication is just ignoring the Bible, this says nothing of the truth of the Bible.
In the same way a Catholic doing evil things says nothing about the Catholic faith just the sinfullness of that person.

Catholics have a specific penalty for sin which is Hell, so a faithful Catholic would, out of love of Jesus live a faithful life, and be trustworthy.

It is a common lie by some non-catholics that somehow priests who sin horribly reflects the teaching of the Catholic faith and that is an easy thing to fall into. Any disagreement with the Catholic faith I have found is usually founded upon misrepresentation and or lies.
Feel free to PM me and I will be happy to show you. I used to attend a non-catholic church but my love of Jesus and truth has led me to home to the Church Jesus founded.

You just have to ask yourself does truth matter to be a true follower of Jesus?

In Christ
Scylla

 

[scylla]

Does that mean what the Church says is right, no matter what the Bible says? Did God give Peter the right to change his Word?

This is a false dichotomy the Catholic Church is the only Church that goes 100% in line with the Bible. Peter or his successors never changed his Word, yet have preserved it since the Church put the Bible together in about 383AD.
Incidently the Bible was mutilated about 150 or so years ago when some non-catholics removed 7 books. Up until then Martin Luther had moved the books upon his own authority to the back since he didn’t like them.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Writer]

A Catholic need not bother debunking “witness of the Holy Spirit” since we believe that anyway. What he is trying to say I think in a round about way is this witness disposes of the need for an authoritative church. T’ain’t so. As an example we all have the “witness of the Holy Spirit” much like many of us have citizenship in the United States. Citizenship gives us lots of rights and priviledges, but not just any ol’ citizen can negotiate a treaty with a foreign country or just go over to the circuit court, plop down on the bench and start issuing rulings. So it is with the issue of which books belong in the Bible. Since there is no indication in the Bible, one must go to an extra-biblical source. Hence the need for an authority as opposed to everyone in the peanut gallery gluing together dozens of radically different scriptures and appealing to the Holy Spirit for validation. This runs the non-Catholic into the elephant in the living room: the mere existence of the Church for 1500 years.

Scott

I would add that churches cite the Holy Spirit constantly when they are making decisions that are contrary to the Bible and tradition. Take the Episcopal Church’s decision to appoint an openly homosexual bishop–they said that it was the Holy Spirit. Well, I don’t doubt that it was a spirit, but it certainly wasn’t the Holy Spirit. I’d say the spirit in question had darker motives. When Christians want to go their own way, they get pretty creative in manufacturing support for their respective positions.

 

[KathyH]

I would add that churches cite the Holy Spirit constantly when they are making decisions that are contrary to the Bible and tradition. Take the Episcopal Church’s decision to appoint an openly homosexual bishop–they said that it was the Holy Spirit. Well, I don’t doubt that it was a spirit, but it certainly wasn’t the Holy Spirit. I’d say the spirit in question had darker motives. When Christians want to go their own way, they get pretty creative in manufacturing support for their respective positions.

That is right the Holy Spirit would never teach or give a word that wasn’t in the written Word of God.

 

[mercygate]

I would add that churches cite the Holy Spirit constantly when they are making decisions that are contrary to the Bible and tradition. Take the Episcopal Church’s decision to appoint an openly homosexual bishop–they said that it was the Holy Spirit. Well, I don’t doubt that it was a spirit, but it certainly wasn’t the Holy Spirit. I’d say the spirit in question had darker motives. When Christians want to go their own way, they get pretty creative in manufacturing support for their respective positions.

:clapping:Ain’t THAT the TRUTH!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

So I tell a Protestant pastor tells me that he accepts the Bible as inspired as follows:

“I discover the same truth through the historical veracity of the resurrection and the witness of the Holy Spirit.”

I point out that not all of the NT mentions the resurrection and even some of the gnostic gospels mention the resurrection. Just because there’s an ancient book that talks about the resurrection doesn’t mean it’s the Word of God. I also tell him the “witness of the holy spirit” is vague as one could ever get and that it reduces accepting scripture based on a warm fuzzy feeling and conviction. He gets mad at that one and quotes the following scripture passages to support his “witness of the holy spirit.”

1 John 5:10
Romans 8:16-17
Ephesians 1:17
Hebrews 10:15-16
1 Corinthians 2:9-16

I read these and I don’t understand what kind of point he’s trying to make by quoting these. I’m sure he’s taking them way out of context. Can anyone help me dissect this? Feel free to go into as much detail as you’d like. I want to be able to give this guy a good response.

As to the alleged “fuzzy feeling” - trying to explain it, is like trying to explain milk or orange juice to someone who knows only water: such a person, having no experience of all three, will insist that milk & orange are nothing but different kinds of water.​

The witness of the Holy Spirit is no “fuzzy feeling” - but those without it can hardly be blamed for reducing it to that. If they do, they should not become too annoyed if those whom they admire are treated in a similarly reductionist way - it would be easy to re-categorise many sainted visionaries as psychopaths, or as people who hallucinated because they had a poor diet. Some of them did behave in a very odd way - such as Rose of Lima, & Mariana de Paredes.

Neither the reality of the interior witness of the Spirit (as described in Romans 8) nor the reality of apparitions to holy people (or to those not holy, indeed), can be proved to sceptics - they can always be given a medico-psychological explanation. It’s entirely possible that Paul had an hallucination on the Damascus Road: but this is irrelevant to the reality of the graces he received. Maybe God works most effectively through eccentrics & nutcases - why not ? They may be more sensitive to Him than their saner brethren; sanity may be a bar to the ability to hear Him.

FWIW, it does not follow that because a thing cannot be justified by reason, it is therefore of no value. Christians are far too ready to assume that reason is competent to judge everything. But reason is worthless or deceitful in most matters in life. Reason won’t feed the hungry, or teach us to pray or cure us of sleeplessness or buy food or clothing or pay the bills - it is worthless for these things. Most things are worthless, when used where they should not be. Reason is greatly over-praised - let’s hear it for faith instead ##

I suspect a lot of us, had we been around when St. Paul was first intoduced to the church in Damascus, would have had no time for him at all. We only call him a saint & apostle and so on because we live long enough after him to see some of the results of his life. If he thought the Holy Spirit witnessed to the hearts of Christians - are we to say he was talking about “fuzzy feelings” ? Yet it is from him that the doctrine of the witness of the Spirit to our spirits comes. ##

 

[KathyH]

Unless a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit they will never know God.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are used to help us. (1 Corinthians 12:5-11) “There is a variety of gifts but always the same Spirit; there are all sorts of service to be done, but always to the same Lord; working in all sorts of different ways in different people, it is the same God who is working in all of them. The particular way in which the Spirit is given to each person is for a good purpose. One may have the gift of preaching with wisdom given him by the Spirit; and another the gift of faith given by the same Spirit; another again the gift of healing, through this one Spirit’ one, the power of miracles; another, prophecy, another the gift of recognizing spirits, another the gift of tongues and another the ability to interpret them. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit who distributes different gifts to different people just as he chooses.”

What can a person who isn’t baptized with the Holy Spirit do when confronted with the fact that there is a Holy Spirit and Christians should be personally guided by him? Now denying there is an Holy Spirit is an option, saying he was only active in the apostles lives, or that just some of the gifts are now given, or a persons may say I have the Church to guide me and don’t need the Holy Spirit.

My witness is that there is a Holy Spirit and I have been given, some of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

All I can do is witness, pray and hope everyone who doesn’t believe in the Holy Spirit and all his gifts will open their hearts to let him in.

 

[mercygate]

Unless a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit they will never know God.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit are used to help us. (1 Corinthians 12:5-11) “There is a variety of gifts but always the same Spirit; there are all sorts of service to be done, but always to the same Lord; working in all sorts of different ways in different people, it is the same God who is working in all of them. The particular way in which the Spirit is given to each person is for a good purpose. One may have the gift of preaching with wisdom given him by the Spirit; and another the gift of faith given by the same Spirit; another again the gift of healing, through this one Spirit’ one, the power of miracles; another, prophecy, another the gift of recognizing spirits, another the gift of tongues and another the ability to interpret them. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit who distributes different gifts to different people just as he chooses.”

What can a person who isn’t baptized with the Holy Spirit do when confronted with the fact that there is a Holy Spirit and Christians should be personally guided by him? Now denying there is an Holy Spirit is an option, saying he was only active in the apostles lives, or that just some of the gifts are now given, or a persons may say I have the Church to guide me and don’t need the Holy Spirit.

My witness is that there is a Holy Spirit and I have been given, some of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

All I can do is witness, pray and hope everyone who doesn’t believe in the Holy Spirit and all his gifts will open their hearts to let him in.

You sound pretty Catholic here, KathyH. All references in Scripture to Baptism of the Spirit indicate that it comes AFTER baptism with water. For adults, of course, the Holy Spirit comes before baptism, prompting to faith, prompts to water baptism, but the baptism of the Sprit comes after water baptism. Does that in any way contradict the teaching you espouse? You clearly share the Catholic (scriptural) view of the gifts of the Spirit. Do you also share that the Holy Spirit comes in different ways to different ends in one’s life?

Tweaking you here: Where in Scripture does it say that one must be baptized by the Holy Spirit in order to know God? It looks to me more like knowing God (by the prevenient grace of the Holy Spirit) leads to baptism of the Spirit.

 

[KathyH]

You sound pretty Catholic here, KathyH. All references in Scripture to Baptism of the Spirit indicate that it comes AFTER baptism with water. For adults, of course, the Holy Spirit comes before baptism, prompting to faith, prompts to water baptism, but the baptism of the Sprit comes after water baptism. Does that in any way contradict the teaching you espouse? You clearly share the Catholic (scriptural) view of the gifts of the Spirit. Do you also share that the Holy Spirit comes in different ways to different ends in one’s life?

Tweaking you here: Where in Scripture does it say that one must be baptized by the Holy Spirit in order to know God? It looks to me more like knowing God (by the prevenient grace of the Holy Spirit) leads to baptism of the Spirit.

Answering your last question first. Paul tells us that to know God we need the Spirit of God.

(1 Corinthians 2:7 –112) “The hidden wisdom of God which we teach in our mysteries is the wisdom that God predestined to be for our glory before the ages began. It is a wisdom that none of the masters of this age have ever known, or they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory, we teach what scripture calls: the things that no eye has seen and no ear has heard, things beyond the mind of man all that God has prepared for those who love him.

These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depths of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God.”

My observation of when someone receives what gifts, from my own life is: gifts have been given to me, as there was a need, except for the gift of tongues, which I walk in at all times. When someone has been sick and doctors can’t or won’t take care of the person, or what they would do wasn’t right for that person, Jesus has used me through the Holy Spirit to heal. When I need some special instructions, I have been given the gift of knowledge, or a tongue with interpretation. Times when in order to help some one through a problem the gift of prophecy was used; I was give the person who need help, deep personal secrets, and then the advice from the Holy Spirit how they could overcome their problem. There have been times when people have needed a witness that God is real or to help me out of grave trouble the Holy Spirit has done miracles. Many times I have been helped to answer questions on the forums. When I don’t have the words or knowledge it has been given to me. Now to answer your question gifts are given when the Holy Spirit decides.

 

[mercygate]

Answering your last question first. Paul tells us that to know God we need the Spirit of God.

(1 Corinthians 2:7 –112) “The hidden wisdom of God which we teach in our mysteries is the wisdom that God predestined to be for our glory before the ages began. It is a wisdom that none of the masters of this age have ever known, or they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory, we teach what scripture calls: the things that no eye has seen and no ear has heard, things beyond the mind of man all that God has prepared for those who love him.

These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depths of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God.”

My observation of when someone receives what gifts, from my own life is: gifts have been given to me, as there was a need, except for the gift of tongues, which I walk in at all times. When someone has been sick and doctors can’t or won’t take care of the person, or what they would do wasn’t right for that person, Jesus has used me through the Holy Spirit to heal. When I need some special instructions, I have been given the gift of knowledge, or a tongue with interpretation. Times when in order to help some one through a problem the gift of prophecy was used; I was give the person who need help, deep personal secrets, and then the advice from the Holy Spirit how they could overcome their problem. There have been times when people have needed a witness that God is real or to help me out of grave trouble the Holy Spirit has done miracles. Many times I have been helped to answer questions on the forums. When I don’t have the words or knowledge it has been given to me. Now to answer your question gifts are given when the Holy Spirit decides.

Understood. But the passages you quote from Paul speak of gifts of the Spirit (Catholics are *REAL *big on Gifts of the Spirit: Wisdom, Knowledge, Understanding, Counsel, Piety, Fortitude, and Fear of the Lord!).

Not a single syllable in the Scriptures you cite links the knowledge of God with the Baptism of the Spirit. They talk about wisdom and knowing – gifts of the Spirit. But you specifically stated: **Unless a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit they will never know God. **

So do I understand correctly that you do not distinguish between receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?