Witness to Domestic Violence

[vern_humphrey]

AlanFromWichita:

One time a nun, after having accused me of something (and as often was the case I didn’t know what I had said wrong) jerkily dragged me by the ear from the first grade to the second grade classroom, and said, “we don’t want him in our room. Maybe he can stay here a while.”

From that experience, I can attest to the fact that being jerked around (literally) can have very little effect on helping someone understand how they can better get along with you. It is an expression of aggression and not correction.

Duhh, I suppose.

The Sisters of the Sacred Heart had the same technique. Some nuns were wonderful, others just mean.

And the Christian Brothers would have us put on the gloves and climb in the ring.

And I am thankful for a Catholic education.

 

[BibleReader]

I used to live in an apartment beneath a completely screwed-up family. About once every two weeks, I would hear the woman screaming at her husband like a banshee for about an hour. Finally, provoked, he would scream back. Then I’d hear him punch her. Then I’d hear her cry. Then I’d hear the kid get slapped by her, and hear the kid scream. Then the next day the wife and kid would show up with black eyes, acting as though niothing had happened.

After a year of this, it dawned on me that the wife was intentionally provoking her own beating. It conformed to her statement to me, many times, to “mind your own business.”

I saw this in my neighborhood recently. The husband and wife were both professionals. The wife was extraordinarily manipulative, to the point of being hair-raising. The neighborhood would hear her screaming, screaming, screaming, SCREAMING at her husband at night for one, two, or three hours. Finally, we’d hear him punch her, and she’d shut up.

I hate to even be near such blood-curdling human confusion.

 

[Karin]

BibleReader:

I used to live in an apartment beneath a completely screwed-up family. About once every two weeks, I would hear the woman screaming at her husband like a banshee for about an hour. Finally, provoked, he would scream back. Then I’d hear him punch her. Then I’d hear her cry. Then I’d hear the kid get slapped by her, and hear the kid scream. Then the next day the wife and kid would show up with black eyes, acting as though niothing had happened.

After a year of this, it dawned on me that the wife was intentionally provoking her own beating. It conformed to her statement to me, many times, to “mind your own business.”

I saw this in my neighborhood recently. The husband and wife were both professionals. The wife was extraordinarily manipulative, to the point of being hair-raising. The neighborhood would hear her screaming, screaming, screaming, SCREAMING at her husband at night for one, two, or three hours. Finally, we’d hear him punch her, and she’d shut up.

I hate to even be near such blood-curdling human confusion.

In any of this examples did anyone hearing the abuse at any time call the authorities???

 

[Black_Jaque]

In any of this examples did anyone hearing the abuse at any time call the authorities???

I wonder… Do they make something like handcuffs, only for the mouth? Maybe with something like that the police could have stopped the “abuse”.

 

[Karin]

Black Jaque:

I wonder… Do they make something like handcuffs, only for the mouth? Maybe with something like that the police could have stopped the “abuse”./QUOTE] Ok you lost me…the poster said that he heard screaming and punching etc. Why not call the police??

 

[martino]

Black Jaque:

Plus, part of the definition of abuse is unprovoked. The reason this is important is because the victim has no control over the situation. In this case the woman would not have had her hair pulled if she had just left the pop can be. The woman had enough power to prevent the situation.

Like I tell my children, when they are arguing about something and they can see that their brother/sister is getting very angry, that means it’s time to back off.

So I guess in this situation, the husband and wife should both get locked up. Preferably in the same cell - they deserve each other.

In just about every case of abuse there is going to be something that “provoked” it. You seem to be saying that as long as it was “provoked” it can’t be called abuse and therefore no reason for police to be involved. She had the power to prevent it but she didnt…almost sounds like its her fault when you look at it that way doesn’t it?

If abuse is not the correct word for a man punching his wife…what would you say is a better word for it…assuming it was “provoked”?

 

[Black_Jaque]

But, we can say that an act is abuse. It is abuse to slap, push, shove or pull the hair of a woman…period. No ifs and or buts. There is no gray area here.

Ok, I give, all of this is abuse. And it’s even possible to verbally abuse someone. Do we need to get the authorities involved in every abuse case?

I don’t think so.

I think it may be possible to abuse the 911 button too. Perhaps being too quick to call in the authorities can cause more damage than not.

 

[Mom_of_one]

Black Jaque:

I’m sorry, I don’t think I agree that the behavior was abuse, I do agree that it was wrong. Perhap in my first post I may have given the impression that this man’s actions were appropriate. That was poor writing on my part, mea culpa.

I do not however consider this abuse, not yet anyway. I think you’re just seeing this in terms of favoring the woman. What if the OP had said that the woman was holding the pop can, the man knocked it out of her hand, they yelled at each other, then drove off. You all would have been screaming that hitting a pop can out of a woman’s hand is abuse. But when the woman does it, it’s no big deal. **Nope. Knocking a pop can out of someone’s hands is NOT abuse, and there is NO way that I would say that. **

Plus, part of the definition of abuse is unprovoked. The reason this is important is because the victim has no control over the situation. In this case the woman would not have had her hair pulled if she had just left the pop can be. The woman had enough power to prevent the situation.** Not true. Abuse is abuse, period. Provoked or not. I took domestic violence classes(after I was in an abusive relationship) and abuse has nothing to do with who provoked what. It is about power and control. Maybe she would have not had her hair pulled if she had let the pop can be, but a person who does not abuse who have reacted VERY differently to having that happen. You cannot stop an abuser–there is always something that will provoke him or her. **

Like I tell my children, when they are arguing about something and they can see that their brother/sister is getting very angry, that means it’s time to back off. **This is absolutely true. And that is what should happen in a healthy relationship. But in an abusive relationship, it is hard for the abuser to back off. And sometimes, the other person knows how to push buttons to get the abuser to the abuse point. Sometimes, the couple feed off of each other. But not all the time. **

So I guess in this situation, the husband and wife should both get locked up. Preferably in the same cell - they deserve each other.

 

[deb1]

Black Jaque:

writing on my part, mea culpa.

I do not however consider this abuse, not yet anyway. I think you’re just seeing this in terms of favoring the woman. What if the OP had said that the woman was holding the pop can, the man knocked it out of her hand, they yelled at each other, then drove off. You all would have been screaming that hitting a pop can out of a woman’s hand is abuse. But when the woman does it, it’s no big deal.

.

I don’t believe that knocking a pop can out of someone’s hands is abuse. It is annoying, childish behavior that should warrant that the man perhaps look into his choice of a girlfriend or wife, but it isn’t abuse. If the man had knocked the can out of the woman’s hand, I would have said that it was an arguement that had gotten out of control, but certainly not abuse.

If the situation had been reversed and the woman had struck the man, I would have considered her the abuser. Abuse is abuse, no matter what the gender. I’m pretty fair that way.

 

[deb1]

BibleReader:

I used to live in an apartment beneath a completely screwed-up family. About once every two weeks, I would hear the woman screaming at her husband like a banshee for about an hour. Finally, provoked, he would scream back. Then I’d hear him punch her. Then I’d hear her cry. Then I’d hear the kid get slapped by her, and hear the kid scream. Then the next day the wife and kid would show up with black eyes, acting as though niothing had happened.

.

If a child was showing up with a black eye, then you should have filed a report with social service. No matter what the mother’s situation, harming a child is pretty disgusting.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

The question is, what should the witness do/have done? And the answer is, there’s nothing he could have done. According to the story as he tells it, husband and wife left together.

Yes, the fact that the woman waited by the car and then left with the man is very telling. For me it would depend on various things. For instance, if I knew the couple.

If I knew the couple and I knew the situation habitually got a lot worse at home behind closed doors and that the woman was complicit, then I would likely bellow at the woman that she can leave any time she chooses to. And then get in my car and drive away.

If, added to this scenario, I knew there were children, I would call the police from my car and ask them to contact the youth bureau. Enough calls to the youth bureau will produce some dramatic changes. Children have a right to not be constant witnesses to this kind of bs.

If I knew that the woman was not complicit, then I would bellow to the woman to run away. If she started running I would call 911. If the man started running after her, I would shout that the man had stolen my purse and I would shout for people to chase him (it’s worked before). If the man came after me I would get in my car and drive.

If I did not know the woman at all, I would ask loudly enough to be heard by all present “Do you need help?” If she says yes, well that’s a 911. If she hesitates, well that gets the question repeated. If she says no, then that gets a “Are you sure?” If she sneers at me, then I get in my car and shake the dust.
vern humphrey:

He could try to personally intervene – and wind up fighting both of them. And when the cops come, guess who gets arrested? (Hint: It won’t be the husband-and-wife tag team who claim they were attacked.)

I completely agree with you that generally there is a kind of complicity in these public brawls and that prying a woman lose from a man who redesigns the side of her face is not going to happen any time soon and in fact is going to be met with vigorous resistance – read violence.

However there are exceptions to the rule of complicity.

By the way, even where women are kept virtually hostage in conditions where they are deprived of food, water, sleep, money, are forbidden contact with relatives, doctors, lawyers (of course), and are forcibly confined, locked up, subject to the usual things which I will not elucidate here, if a woman is determined to get free she will find a way.

Some of them die in the process, but some of them die for the lack of trying. Home torture is a terminal disease. Treat it as such.

I knew a woman who lived on a farm way out in the country. As often as she could, she would squirrel away a few dollars here, a few there, in different places. She hid her ID. She kept silent for years. Then she took all seven children and left. She’s OK now, working, kids grown up.

I think the most important thing for a witness to do is to go-zero and allow the situation to describe itself to you clearly. And then to calm one’s emotions and act rationally. Public brawls involve at least one party – most likely two parties if not more – who is(are) irrational. Adding your own irrational projections, fears, bitterness is not safe.

:tiphat:

 

[Pug]

People who were abused as a child often react in ways that you would not expect to being abused as an adult. Just because a hypothetical woman got back in the car is meaningless. As a child, she would have had to get back in the car, so she could be trained to do it, even when in shock (which she most likely was). This staying by the car is maybe learned, but not necessarily from this guy.

About a hypothetical woman in the apartment yelling until hit. It seems obvious to me that the man could have been doing something to “provoke” the yelling. The assumption that she is just yelling at him to exercise her lungs until he responds predictably by hitting her is inexplicable. What if all the time she was yelling he is silently ripping up all her pictures of her children or what if he was systematically putting her clothing in the bathtub and urinating on them? You have no idea what was going on while she yelled.

I am not justifying yelling, but I am puzzled by an assumption that it was unprovoked. This could be a pattern where the husband wants an excuse to hit her, so he makes her yell long enough so he feels justified in doing it. After he hits her, he leaves her alone (and so she shuts up) because he got what he wanted. Abusers try to make people do things or create situations that “justify” whatever the abuser wants. And if you don’t play along, it is often the worse for you. This hypothetical woman could need help to escape this dumb pattern. So could he.

Offering assistance must be done judiciously, lest she (or he, depending on who is the abusee) pay for it. Also, the authorities could be unhelpful to the situation. You have to decide based on what you know.

There is no reason to drag a woman by her hair unless she was in a fire and it is the only sound thing you can use to drag her away from flames or some such.

 

[burnside]

Sometimes.people,who.are.not.abusers,can.lash.out.because.of
stress.Perhaps.i’m.a.chauvinist,but.it.seems.like.that.reason.is
acceptable.in.Court.more.easily.when.the.aggressor.is.a.woman.
Once.i.got.myself.in.a.physical.confrontation.with.a.troublesome
youth.and.a.policeman.told.me.that.some.of.these.people.can.get
someone.to.lie.in.Court,saying.that.i.started.the.fracas.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

burnside:

Sometimes.people,who.are.not.abusers,can.lash.out.because.of
stress.

More often than not, people choose to lash out as a way to manage their stress because nobody in their lives have called them on it. By not calling them on it, we enable the lashing out. Calling them on it can look like various things, including simply getting up and leaving. Actions often speak louder than words.

 

[BibleReader]

Karin:

In any of this examples did anyone hearing the abuse at any time call the authorities???

In both cases, the police had been to the residence a dozen or so times, before they gave up seeking to untie the Gordian Knot.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I was called one night because a sergeant who worked for me had been picked up by the Military Police for abusing his wife. The fight got so loud the neigbors called the MPs. His story was that the wife was attacking the children, and he was only trying to restrain her.

That morning, when he was allowed to return home, he cound both children dead.

 

[Mom_of_one]

vern humphrey:

I was called one night because a sergeant who worked for me had been picked up by the Military Police for abusing his wife. The fight got so loud the neigbors called the MPs. His story was that the wife was attacking the children, and he was only trying to restrain her.

That morning, when he was allowed to return home, he cound both children dead.

And nobody listened to him? That is horrible. I know that it was too late after the fact to save his children, but was there anything else that he was able to do, like sue? At the very least, CPS should have been called.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

I was called one night because a sergeant who worked for me had been picked up by the Military Police for abusing his wife. The fight got so loud the neigbors called the MPs. His story was that the wife was attacking the children, and he was only trying to restrain her.

That morning, when he was allowed to return home, he cound both children dead.

Vern, I am aware that some women are violent toward men and toward children. I used the usual ‘she’ and ‘he’ example because my fingers got tired from typing. I did not mean to accuse only men of being abusers. And I apologize for any slight.

I knew a fella down the street whose girlfriend used to pound him silly. We tried to get him to see that this was no way to live, but…

Some people make it out. Some people don’t.

I’m sorry you had to witness so closely the deaths of children. I very very closely know what that feels like.

 

[vern_humphrey]

The house was a wreck, and the wife was sobbing hysterically. Of course the husband was at fault!

This is one reason why I say, when discussing real events, judge not.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

vern humphrey:

The house was a wreck, and the wife was sobbing hysterically. Of course the husband was at fault!

This is one reason why I say, when discussing real events, judge not.

I understand. I think there is some information which can be shared however. What actually goes down in a parking lot episode like this can be anything.

If I am in the parking lot and my sense is that a public brawl is worthy of clarification then I will respond. That is not judgment. It’s the red flag mechanism doing what it is supposed to be doing.

Admittedly my red flag mechanism has some experience behind it. And if a general rule is to be set forth for those with little experience it would be safety first.

Judgment belongs to the jury and to God.