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agapewolf
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This is metaphorical in most cases…
The idea is “dying to self”…meaning letting things that we want die away for the sake of the other. Living a life of sacrifice for the other person.
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The idea is “dying to self”…meaning letting things that we want die away for the sake of the other. Living a life of sacrifice for the other person.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
The story about the young couple who sold their best possession to buy a gift for their spouse is a nice example.
The husband sold his pocket watch to by hair combs for his wife, she sold her hair to buy a chain for his watch.
The husband sold his pocket watch to by hair combs for his wife, she sold her hair to buy a chain for his watch.
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Serap
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Yes, it deosn’t seem fair does it. I have definitely made way more sacrifices than my husband in this marriage. Women (i.e., mothers) tend to sacrifice a great deal for their families and it is often unequal.I’ve heard that little boys are a handful. That is one gender difference I can understand
Anyway, people here say that wives should submit, because the husband is meant to give up his life for his family. However do wives especially mothers not do this for their family as a whole anyway? Through pregnancy and possibly early childhood mothers seem to have an unequal share as it is. I m not complaining of anything in particular, but for people to say that women have it easier because it is the men who are called to sacrifice, just does not hold water with me. Most wives would probably give up their lives for their husbands if necessary out of love anyway, and I think it is needless to say they would do it for the children.
BUT…I think this is short sighted b/c as the journey evolves, ebbs and goes along, the tables may turn, time to time. I think in the end, it balances out for most marriages.
At least, I keep telling myself this while I take the lion’s share of the parenting responsibilities. Thank God for my live-in nanny. She is an amazing caregiver.
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severus68
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What about 1 Corinthians 12 and 13? Mark 9:35 please? What about commmentaries and notes on all these passages? I am not going to do this all over again. I did it all in other similar threads. I recall being called a child of he devil, told I was going to hell.Why NOT refer to what Popes said in the 19th century? As well as what JPII has said? And what our current HF has said (if he’s said anything on the subject-- I’m not sure if he has). That’s why the Church has preserved those past writings. They have value. JPII didn’t contradict them. If you think he did, I’d like to understand more what you mean (examples of when he did this, or an example of where he said that his intention was to **change **the Church’s traditional teaching on marriage.)
There is nothing in the Bible or in any of the previous teachings fo the church about “mutual submission”. The Catholic Church does hold that the Sacred Scriptions are without error. So JPII used mutual submission as a way to interpret and explain how the dynamic of Ephesians 5 can work. And (IMO) he did this because so many people had started to get up in arms about the concept of wives submitting. (Just like in this thread! lol) The Holy Father just emphasized the partnership of marriage and pointed out that by the wife submitting to her husband, and the husband in turn giving up his life for the wife, then they are both mutually submitting (and sacrificing) themselves to eachother out of love.
I believe St. Paul also writes, just after the “controversial” part, that husband and wives should submit to eachother out of love. That’s all JPII was saying. It’s all part of the same teaching, the same idea. Some of y’all are trying to pull it out IMO and say that as a stand-alone idea it cancels out the first part of Ephesians 5.
Thanks lol. This is a saying in our family, too. So true.
So JPII felt he had to refer to mutual submission to placate some people? I have always thought he said what he believed in with great charity.?
Yes Paul did say that. In 1 Corinthians, after going on about the culture then, he went on to say that that under Christ it is different, that men and women are equal.
Claire, I am sure you are a good person and I do not want to get into any arguement with you or speak uncharitably. Christianity is Christ. Christ taught love as the greatest commandment. He pointed out and respected the dignity of every person whether man or woman. There are man made institutions, constitutions which prohibit discrimination on the basis of gender. Why reduce Christian marriage to something less?
I strongly believe that under Christ all are equal in dignity and rights. Each married couple has the right to find their own balance in the marriage with mutual respect and love…
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happymommy
Guest
Yes, that’s a great example! It’s about giving out of love. When you do that, it doesn’t feel like you are giving anything up; you are gaining. You stop wanting to do everything for yourself and start thinking about others needs first.
When people hear the word submit, they think I walk behind my husband, call him sir and that I can’t think for myself. What it really means is that I put his needs ahead of my own. But since he loves me as Christ loves his church, he puts my needs ahead of his own! He is the head of the house, but because of his great love for me he wouldn’t do something that would upset me or go against what is best for the family.
It’s not about who does more. There is no keeping score. We are a team. Our goal as husband and wife is getting our entire team to Heaven!
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severus68
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“The Gift of the Magi”. Yes, a beautiful story of sacrifice for love. Very touching.
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severus68
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Agreed. However I am sure that most husbands and wivs would literally die for each other and certainly for their children. I know they would in my family.
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happymommy
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Yes I would! Without giving it a second thought!Agreed. However I am sure that most husbands and wivs would literally die for each other and certainly for their children. I know they would in my family.
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severus68
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I have no doubt you would.
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HolyInnocent
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Really Serap? This is a shame that you feel this way. Look at it this way, your husband has been tasked with loving you even unto death and all you have to do is submit, and yet you complain? There is something wrong with that picture isn’t there? Admit it to yourself… Are you easy to love? everyday? I know most of us aren’t… If your husband has your best interests at heart and loves you as God commands, then submitting would be easy don’t ya think? Face it, we are all human and given to human failings… but truly, submitting to my husband has been quite a freeing experience. I know I am not an easy person to love sometimes… I admit it, but thankfully, that is exactly what my dh does. When you feel like the burden is all or mostly yours, maybe you should look at how demanding, selfish, stubborn, or what ever you feel is your worst flaw… Mothers do take on the majority of the parenting, so what? You have a nanny, be thankful! What does he take on the lion’s share of? Is it yard work, car repairs? Financial? This is his way of showing his love… God didn’t promise equal or even “alike” did he? You complain that women and mothers tend to get the child rearing responsibilities… yes they do, but then you say it isn’t fair or equal. Men and women were made for different purposes we are “wired” differently so to speak. When it comes time for little league you will probably see your dh take a more active role with your son… but until then, try using the “attitude of gratitude” and thank God you have a husband, children AND a nanny… not to mention a roof over your heads, food on the table, and modern conveniences that you enjoy.
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ac_claire
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ac_claire
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I don’t understand it perfectly for sure, but for example…my husband and I met initially online and then got to know each other in person. He is from England and I’m in the States. When we were talking about getting married, and even a little bit after we were married, we talked a little bit about living in the US or in England. He was willing to move to the States, (leaving his family, his whole life, his hometown, etc.) just so I could stay where I was comfortable and where my own family was.
Now, he’s working and we’re having some money issues. He’s been taking some really, really awful shifts at his job which cut into his personal time and sleep time because he’ll make a little more money on those shifts to help support me and our daughter. He knows that staying home with the baby is important to me and it’s important to him too, so he’s promised that he’ll do whatever he has to so I won’t have to work outside the home while we have small children. Even though that means for the time being he’s working looong, weird hours at a grueling job that he hates. I think that kind of thing is what St. Paul was talking about.
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LittleDeb
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It’s the Energizer thread!! It keeps going and going and going.
I hope the OP has gotten her question answered. There have been some wonderful posts on what it actually means, but as always, interpretation is often our downfall.
So, I recommend reading the Shakespeare play, “The Taming of the Shrew,” (or watching a good production). While it is a Protestant interpretation, it is one from early enough in, that their understanding of men and women was still very Catholic, much more so than it is now.
beafedor: Your husband got it wrong. Yes. With that attitude he will have a shrew for a wife if he is not careful. But in his defense, my own husband has said some equally dumb things on other topics, so I am guessing you still have a good man there.
Eph 5 can take years to really begin to understand. But I found that “Shrew” did a pretty good job. For those who have not read it, spoiler alert!! In the end she shows she has submitted, and it is proven that they are the happier couple than the ones who either have a husband who isn’t worth submitting to, or a wife who won’t (both are illustrated).
My personal illustration of Eph 5 has to do with size differences between men and women. “When the whole world comes crashing in, it is my husband who takes the first blow as the roof caves in. And we wouldn’t have it any other way.”
Eph 5 doesn’t mean the husband is always right. It means the husband must bear the brunt of it when everything goes wrong.
(And that understanding is from a total Theology of the Body junkie.)
I hope that helps!!
I hope the OP has gotten her question answered. There have been some wonderful posts on what it actually means, but as always, interpretation is often our downfall.
So, I recommend reading the Shakespeare play, “The Taming of the Shrew,” (or watching a good production). While it is a Protestant interpretation, it is one from early enough in, that their understanding of men and women was still very Catholic, much more so than it is now.
beafedor: Your husband got it wrong. Yes. With that attitude he will have a shrew for a wife if he is not careful. But in his defense, my own husband has said some equally dumb things on other topics, so I am guessing you still have a good man there.
Eph 5 can take years to really begin to understand. But I found that “Shrew” did a pretty good job. For those who have not read it, spoiler alert!! In the end she shows she has submitted, and it is proven that they are the happier couple than the ones who either have a husband who isn’t worth submitting to, or a wife who won’t (both are illustrated).
My personal illustration of Eph 5 has to do with size differences between men and women. “When the whole world comes crashing in, it is my husband who takes the first blow as the roof caves in. And we wouldn’t have it any other way.”
Eph 5 doesn’t mean the husband is always right. It means the husband must bear the brunt of it when everything goes wrong.
(And that understanding is from a total Theology of the Body junkie.)
I hope that helps!!
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severus68
Guest
Its a shame really that you are so judgemental and have avery odd logic.
So a wife does not have to love her husband until death. BTW there are marriages, even Christian marriages where neither husband nor wife still love each other but stay together for the sake of their children, because of their vows.
So only women/wives are not easy to love? So only women/wives are demanding, selfish, stubborn etc?
I am not from the US so I wont comment on your Little League statement but yard (garden) work, car repairs and finances? In the rest of the world, women mow their gardens, paint their houses, contribute to family finances and surely it is the same in the US. If someone wants to drive a car, he/she should know how to change a tyre, change the oil.
A couple can choose how to divide work etc.
Sorry but God made us equal, Christ confirmed that.
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severus68
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With respect Claire, I do understand. I have read up a lot on the subject. What I stated in the last line is what I believe, mutual submission and submission to God.
BTW I just read your next post. You have a lovely family and I pray things ease up on your husband.
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severus68
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I do not think Shakespeare was making any religious point, whether Protestrant or Catholic. "The Taming of the Shrew’ is considered misogynistic or just a farce. I opt for it being a farce. Shakespeare was forwarding thinking as shown by what some of his characters say and think.
Size differences? Isn’t that a bit simplistic? I have seen even in my church how some wives tower above their husbands.
In real life, it is not always the husbands who bear the brunt. Problems, tragerdies are best shared - and they should.
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Serap
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you’re absolutely correct. I am just still in the thick of raising a high maintenance son. It’s hard to see the forest through the trees until you find a meadow. I’m hoping his last 3 teeth will come in sooner than later
My nanny is wonderful and she’s a blessing. She doens’t work long hours or do any cleaning b/c I believe that having her do that is wrong. She focuses on my babies and I come home, cook dinner and clean up. My kids get home about 45 minutes after I do (from the park, etc.).
May think that b/c I have a live-in nanny, that all my cooking and cleaning is being done, but it’s not the case in my family. Jesus would not treat her that way, so I will not either.
My husband is a good man, yes and he’s made plenty of sacrifices for us too.
I don’t think I’m complaining per se, I’m just saying that I feel exhausted most of the time and I’m still in the thick of it all. It’s really hard and exhausting and when I see my husband doing a lot less (in the home), it seems a little unfair (regardless of whether or not he is a wonderful husband). It’s human nature.
And no, I’m not easy to live with
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Serap
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I like your reasoning.
I make as much money as my husband and I pay a lot of bills.
Lately, my husband has been getting better at helping out with my son and this is a God send
My son is very clingy and emotional…God bless his beautiful soul. As a parent, this can be very difficult to deal with and my husband doesn’t have the patience that I have and so, I end up doing 90% of the work looking after our son. It’s very hard for me b/c I don’t have endless patience either.When I was on MAT leave, DH never wanted me to go anywhere b/c he couldn’t handle looking after our son. I became very tired and resentful. I got depressed and began to really resent DH. I didn’t even want to look at him I resented him so much. I also had PPD b/c of my son’s colic.
Going back to work saved me! Now I can get my hair cut, go to the gym and have some “me” time. This is a much better arrangement for me b/c quite honestly, when I was at home, our marriage deteriorated. My mothering skills deteriorated b/c I was so angry and tired. My husband treats me with more respect when I’m working.
I couldn’t be a SAHM and have a traditional relationship. I just couldn’t.
I may get slammed for my post, but I’m glad that I have choices.
As for submitting, I will submit if I feel that it’s not a big deal. I will defer to my husband. If it’s something I 100% believe in…heck no! I won’t submit. I’ll also tell my husband that he’s being disrespectful, etc and I will leave the room if I feel disrespected.
Jesus doesn’t want me to be treated with disrespect.
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HolyInnocent
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Been there done that! First son was on heart monitors until 14 months old… I never slept more than an hour at a time… second son, lost his twin and he was born premature. He is my adhd kid and was very difficult to raise. DD was next, a pure joy but of course after having 2 boys she was a tough little girl… In the midst of all that, I had a husband that had mental issues and decided he was a pagan high priest and left, stole all the money on his way out the door and left me all the bills.you’re absolutely correct. I am just still in the thick of raising a high maintenance son. It’s hard to see the forest through the trees until you find a meadow. I’m hoping his last 3 teeth will come in sooner than later
My nanny is wonderful and she’s a blessing. She doens’t work long hours or do any cleaning b/c I believe that having her do that is wrong. She focuses on my babies and I come home, cook dinner and clean up. My kids get home about 45 minutes after I do (from the park, etc.).
May think that b/c I have a live-in nanny, that all my cooking and cleaning is being done, but it’s not the case in my family. Jesus would not treat her that way, so I will not either.
My husband is a good man, yes and he’s made plenty of sacrifices for us too.
I don’t think I’m complaining per se, I’m just saying that I feel exhausted most of the time and I’m still in the thick of it all. It’s really hard and exhausting and when I see my husband doing a lot less (in the home), it seems a little unfair (regardless of whether or not he is a wonderful husband). It’s human nature.
And no, I’m not easy to live with
I am glad you got the gist of what I was saying about gratitude and looking for the ways he does contribute. It really isn’t about who does more work, it isn’t even about your perception and how you feel about it based on those perceptions. It is about God in your marriage, If you thank God for the things you do have, you tend to view them more favorably. It is that whole attitude of gratitude thing I mentioned.
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HolyInnocent
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obviously… you missed the entire point… fwiw, I do the car and home repairs in my house, I work 65-70 hours a week except during harvest… then I work about 80 hrs. Of course we love until death, of course men can be just as difficult to love… I was getting at being grateful for what you do have and looking at your own flaws too…
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