"Wives submit to your husbands" and Catechism?

[JaneGrey]

you’re absolutely correct. I am just still in the thick of raising a high maintenance son. It’s hard to see the forest through the trees until you find a meadow. I’m hoping his last 3 teeth will come in sooner than later

My nanny is wonderful and she’s a blessing. She doens’t work long hours or do any cleaning b/c I believe that having her do that is wrong. She focuses on my babies and I come home, cook dinner and clean up. My kids get home about 45 minutes after I do (from the park, etc.).

May think that b/c I have a live-in nanny, that all my cooking and cleaning is being done, but it’s not the case in my family. Jesus would not treat her that way, so I will not either.

My husband is a good man, yes and he’s made plenty of sacrifices for us too.

I don’t think I’m complaining per se, I’m just saying that I feel exhausted most of the time and I’m still in the thick of it all. It’s really hard and exhausting and when I see my husband doing a lot less (in the home), it seems a little unfair (regardless of whether or not he is a wonderful husband). It’s human nature.

And no, I’m not easy to live with

I dont think you are complaining. Everyone needs to vent sometimes. We d go crazy if we kept it all in. Im sure you re husband sacrifices alot, but it does sound like you like many women do take on extra responsibilites. It happens. I think in cases where both parents work outside the home, both should as much as possible, equally help out with household/childcare duties.

I know this is all easier said than done, but I just think that we should all work towards that attitude. Mutual self-giving, which is perfectly in line with Catholicism anyway.

 

[mellowcalico]

I always figured the whole “submit to your husband” was good if the husband keeps up his end and loved his wife more than himself. And vice versa too BTW. If both spouces aren’t on board with their proper roles, it won’t work.

The story that was mentioned earlier, “The Gift of the Magi” is a good example. It works because each submits/loves the other more than herself/himself. But if one of them didn’t follow thought, the story would be broken. (Imagine if the woman didn’t cut and sell her hair or the man didn’t sell his watch).

I think often, for what ever reason, too much emphasis is placed on the woman and not enough follow up on the man’s role in this relationship directive. It’s like getting half a story or half a guide.

 

[Serap]

Been there done that! First son was on heart monitors until 14 months old… I never slept more than an hour at a time… second son, lost his twin and he was born premature. He is my adhd kid and was very difficult to raise. DD was next, a pure joy but of course after having 2 boys she was a tough little girl… In the midst of all that, I had a husband that had mental issues and decided he was a pagan high priest and left, stole all the money on his way out the door and left me all the bills.

I am glad you got the gist of what I was saying about gratitude and looking for the ways he does contribute. It really isn’t about who does more work, it isn’t even about your perception and how you feel about it based on those perceptions. It is about God in your marriage, If you thank God for the things you do have, you tend to view them more favorably. It is that whole attitude of gratitude thing I mentioned.

I’m sorry you went through that. That must have been awful. I’m glad you are happy now.

 

[Serap]

I always figured the whole “submit to your husband” was good if the husband keeps up his end and loved his wife more than himself. And vice versa too BTW. If both spouces aren’t on board with their proper roles, it won’t work.

The story that was mentioned earlier, “The Gift of the Magi” is a good example. It works because each submits/loves the other more than herself/himself. But if one of them didn’t follow thought, the story would be broken. (Imagine if the woman didn’t cut and sell her hair or the man didn’t sell his watch).

I think often, for what ever reason, too much emphasis is placed on the woman and not enough follow up on the man’s role in this relationship directive. It’s like getting half a story or half a guide.

Men often have a hard time giving themselves to marriage. They are afraid of losing control. Women often take the brunt of the load and it’s difficult.

 

[ac_claire]

With respect Claire, I do understand. I have read up a lot on the subject. What I stated in the last line is what I believe, mutual submission and submission to God.

BTW I just read your next post. You have a lovely family and I pray things ease up on your husband.

Thank you so much for that.

I can’t tell you what you think, obviously. But the reason I believe you don’t understand it is because of several things you’ve said, including this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7963173&postcount=83 (post #83). You are talking about the mutual dignity of men and women as though the traditional interpretation of Ephesians 5 is contrary to that. Is that what you believe? You’re setting it up like you can have it one way or another, you know? If I believed that, I’d want to choose the “women have equal dignity” option, too. But it’s a false either/or scenario. Please don’t take that as condescending, I’m not intending to be that way at all.

 

[severus68]

obviously… you missed the entire point… fwiw, I do the car and home repairs in my house, I work 65-70 hours a week except during harvest… then I work about 80 hrs. Of course we love until death, of course men can be just as difficult to love… I was getting at being grateful for what you do have and looking at your own flaws too…

My apologies. After reading your 2nd response to Serap above, I understand why you posted in such a manner. I agree, we all should be grateful for what we have and see our own flaws.

Condolences and sympathies for the loss of your child. I pray life gets easier for you and your family. God bless.

 

[severus68]

I dont think you are complaining. Everyone needs to vent sometimes. We d go crazy if we kept it all in. Im sure you re husband sacrifices alot, but it does sound like you like many women do take on extra responsibilites. It happens. I think in cases where both parents work outside the home, both should as much as possible, equally help out with household/childcare duties.

I know this is all easier said than done, but I just think that we should all work towards that attitude. Mutual self-giving, which is perfectly in line with Catholicism anyway.

Agreed.

 

[severus68]

Thank you so much for that.

I can’t tell you what you think, obviously. But the reason I believe you don’t understand it is because of several things you’ve said, including this post: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7963173&postcount=83 (post #83). You are talking about the mutual dignity of men and women as though the traditional interpretation of Ephesians 5 is contrary to that. Is that what you believe? You’re setting it up like you can have it one way or another, you know? If I believed that, I’d want to choose the “women have equal dignity” option, too. But it’s a false either/or scenario. Please don’t take that as condescending, I’m not intending to be that way at all.

Its alrighy Claire. I wont take it as you being codescending. However I am not too sure as to what you are saying. Anyway there are Catholics who disagree with my view obviously. However I have read notes and commentaries to Bible verses on this saying that Paul was talking about the submission of wives/women in the context of his culture then and the then situations. That is why I have referred to 1 Corinthians 11 and 12. I will try to postsome notes/commentaries.

Claire, I believe strongly in social justice. Christ was about love and social justice is about love. That is why I will die a Christian. To me saying God requires an adult human with full faculties to defer to anyone in the personal arena is wrong. That is a position many Muslims and some Evangicals take.
We do of course have to defer to our bosses and submit to the law and the jurisdiction of authorities we accept.

 

[Serap]

My apologies. After reading your 2nd response to Serap above, I understand why you posted in such a manner. I agree, we all should be grateful for what we have and see our own flaws.

Condolences and sympathies for the loss of your child. I pray life gets easier for you and your family. God bless.

group hug !!! :grouphug:

 

[ac_claire]

Its alrighy Claire. I wont take it as you being codescending. However I am not too sure as to what you are saying. Anyway there are Catholics who disagree with my view obviously. However I have read notes and commentaries to Bible verses on this saying that Paul was talking about the submission of wives/women in the context of his culture then and the then situations. That is why I have referred to 1 Corinthians 11 and 12. I will try to postsome notes/commentaries.

Claire, I believe strongly in social justice. Christ was about love and social justice is about love. That is why I will die a Christian. To me saying God requires an adult human with full faculties to defer to anyone in the personal arena is wrong. That is a position many Muslims and some Evangicals take.
We do of course have to defer to our bosses and submit to the law and the jurisdiction of authorities we accept.

Severus, I will say it’s much nicer posting with you now than a year or so ago. Maybe we’ve both changed a bit.

To answer the bolded in your quote, I’m just wondering if you’re posting things about equal dignity, etc., as though you feel that Ephesians 5 contradicts that sentiment? Here’s the whole verse:

Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body. As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her, cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. So (also) husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body.
“For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband.

He starts out by saying that husbands and wives need to be subordinate to eachother out of reverence to Christ, then he goes on to say in more detail, and more practically, how husbands and wives can achieve this. He also says that it’s a great mystery-- meaning in part, I don’t think we can sit here discussing it on a forum and totally understand it that way.

I’ve read the commentaries that espouse your view on it, too. Not sure if they’re the same commentaries or not. It might be useful to see when those commentaries were written? The ones I read all date from the 1960s and forward.

My own instinctual feeling is that they aren’t organic commentaries; that they are born out of an outside agenda (ie: feminism). I don’t think that some neutral-thinking theologians found some contextual evidence one day and thought “hey, maybe this one verse here was ONLY applicable to the time and place where St. Paul preached it?” Doesn’t make sense to my rational mind. If I could find any evidence to the contrary I’d certainly accept it.

 

[severus68]

Severus, I will say it’s much nicer posting with you now than a year or so ago. Maybe we’ve both changed a bit.

To answer the bolded in your quote, I’m just wondering if you’re posting things about equal dignity, etc., as though you feel that Ephesians 5 contradicts that sentiment? Here’s the whole verse:

He starts out by saying that husbands and wives need to be subordinate to eachother out of reverence to Christ, then he goes on to say in more detail, and more practically, how husbands and wives can achieve this. He also says that it’s a great mystery-- meaning in part, I don’t think we can sit here discussing it on a forum and totally understand it that way.

I’ve read the commentaries that espouse your view on it, too. Not sure if they’re the same commentaries or not. It might be useful to see when those commentaries were written? The ones I read all date from the 1960s and forward.

My own instinctual feeling is that they aren’t organic commentaries; that they are born out of an outside agenda (ie: feminism). I don’t think that some neutral-thinking theologians found some contextual evidence one day and thought “hey, maybe this one verse here was ONLY applicable to the time and place where St. Paul preached it?” Doesn’t make sense to my rational mind. If I could find any evidence to the contrary I’d certainly accept it.

Well Claire, I have never been rude for the sake of being rude and I will not be intimidated. I will also not back down from an important issue. I have at times misunderstood or jumped in without thinking and have apologised. However, speaking generally, there are some on CAF who think its ok to be rude and down right nasty to those who disagree with them or who they disagree with. These are bullies. You find people like this everywhere but I was rather shocked to find them Catholics on a Catholic forum. I know of some who do not join threads because of these people as they end up responding in a less than charitable manner. To be honest, I forget how we discussed though I remember we disagreed. What’s new,? lol.

On the matter at hand, I do not think St Paul was being anything but honest and he was trying to teach what Christ taught. He did relate to that time and the then culture but he did say that with Christ, all are equal, men and women. It is also about the interpretation of what he said.

I am not sure what commentaries you are referring to but the basis of feminism is equality and equal rights for women and such commentaries are necessarily are wrong. Well I believe Paul sent a slave back to his master for example.

These are two extracts from St Thomas Aquinas’ lectures on Ephesians.

“This is as to a lord since the relation of a husband to his wife is, in a certain way, like that of a master to his servant, insofar as the latter ought to be governed by the commands of his master. The difference between these two relationships is that the master employs his servants in whatever is profitable to himself; but a husband treats his wife and children in reference to the common good. Thus he mentions as to a lord; the husband is not really a lord, but is as a lord”
“It is evident that a desire exists in all higher agents that they administer to, and communicate with, lower agents. Thus a natural love for the lower is present in them. Now a man is an inferior in relation to his father and mother, he is not higher than they; hence he is naturally more drawn towards his wife and children, to whom he is superior, than to his parents”.

God’s Truth is immutable but it is about learning, growing and getting a better understanding of such Truth over the years.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

QA reading from 1st peter Chapter 3

1 Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see your reverent and chaste behavior. 3 Let not yours be the outward adorning with braiding of hair, decoration of gold, and wearing of fine clothing, 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable jewel of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. 5 So once the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves and were submissive to their husbands, 6* as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord!

The Word of the Lord!
Praise be to God:thumbsup:

Sorry ladies I just couldn’t help myself

 

[rdscheirer]

It’s supposed to be a Sacrament of the Church. Marriage is the union of two into one. Paul tells us that the husband should sacrifice himself for the family as Christ sacrificed himself for the Church.The wife is to sacrifice herself to the family as the Church sacrifices to God.

If you want a better marriage and a more faithful fullfillment of the above seek out a “Living in Love” weekend- truly Catholic, truly meant to bring out the best in both of you.

 

[ChiRho]

To the popular response to this verse, which is “If I could find a man who would love me as Christ loved the Church, I’d definitely submit!”, I ask, “are you sure?” Christ was despised and executed by his own people, despite His love for them. Christ was constantly rejected because He said things people did not want to hear, and because He challenged those who thought they were holiest. Even those who experienced Christ first-hand did not submit to Him, despite the fact that He loved more and sacrificed more than any husband ever will.

Don’t act like submission to a Christ figure would be easy. Good, but not easy. Saying “I would x if y” seems like a cop out.

Also, this basically presents an impossible situation, a keeping of scores that would breed resentment among the two spouses. Each asking themselves “did they do the same for me? why should I sacrifice for them?”

 

[severus68]

To the popular response to this verse, which is “If I could find a man who would love me as Christ loved the Church, I’d definitely submit!”, I ask, “are you sure?” Christ was despised and executed by his own people, despite His love for them. Christ was constantly rejected because He said things people did not want to hear, and because He challenged those who thought they were holiest. Even those who experienced Christ first-hand did not submit to Him, despite the fact that He loved more and sacrificed more than any husband ever will.

Don’t act like submission to a Christ figure would be easy. Good, but not easy. Saying “I would x if y” seems like a cop out.

Also, this basically presents an impossible situation, a keeping of scores that would breed resentment among the two spouses. Each asking themselves “did they do the same for me? why should I sacrifice for them?”

Not sure what you are saying. Is a husband supposed to be a Christ figure? What an impossible burden on any man. All, men and women should try to be Christ like.

I agree that a marriage should not be about keeping scores, it should be a give and take partnership based on love.

 

[ChiRho]

Not sure what you are saying. Is a husband supposed to be a Christ figure?

Are you familiar with the passage this thread is discussing? “As the Church is subordinate to Christ” and “As Christ loved the Church…” are pretty clear. Furthermore, I’m also responding to what other people have said (both in this thread and in others) who also think this passage demands a Christ figure.

 

[happymommy]

To the popular response to this verse, which is “If I could find a man who would love me as Christ loved the Church, I’d definitely submit!”, I ask, “are you sure?” Christ was despised and executed by his own people, despite His love for them. Christ was constantly rejected because He said things people did not want to hear, and because He challenged those who thought they were holiest. Even those who experienced Christ first-hand did not submit to Him, despite the fact that He loved more and sacrificed more than any husband ever will.

Don’t act like submission to a Christ figure would be easy. Good, but not easy. Saying “I would x if y” seems like a cop out.

Also, this basically presents an impossible situation, a keeping of scores that would breed resentment among the two spouses. Each asking themselves “did they do the same for me? why should I sacrifice for them?”

Yes, that’s what a lot are saying! Well, my husband doesn’t do as much as me, so I don’t have to submit to him and I’ll only do it if it’s something I don’t feel strongly about. I don’t think that’s how it is suppose to work! Really, we are called to love our husbands like that even if they are not holding up there end of the deal. Some husbands don’t put their wives and family first, but the wife is still to love him as Christ commanded, not keep score and wait for the husband to change.

 

[severus68]

Are you familiar with the passage this thread is discussing? “As the Church is subordinate to Christ” and “As Christ loved the Church…” are pretty clear. Furthermore, I’m also responding to what other people have said (both in this thread and in others) who also think this passage demands a Christ figure.

I am actually as well as with other passages and commentaries as well bible notes on them. This view of yours and others is the same old same old exaltation of men and negation of the equality of women. A man is not a God figure, neither is a woman.

 

[Serap]

I am actually as well as with other passages and commentaries as well bible notes on them. This view of yours and others is the same old same old exaltation of men and negation of the equality of women. A man is not a God figure, neither is a woman.

you guys are still going at it??? LOL!

 

[severus68]

you guys are still going at it??? LOL!

The battle rages, lol.