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rusty20
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Precisely. This talk of submission and obedience makes it seem like us men are somehow always superior in our thoughts, actions, and life decisions. That’s bologna.
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Sullibe
Guest
No. But what it all does mean is that when you both find yourself in a situation where you are both of two different minds on one specific topic at some point, one person has to concede. God is asking you to trust that the man that God called you to marry will have YOUR best interests at heart and allow him to make that decision.
For example, after my family spent a year in Detroit, my husband was looking for other jobs. We thought he had a very good lead for one, in an area that I was excited to move to. In fact that job fell through, and while I wanted him to keep looking for a different job, another one came open that would have moved us to a podunk town in the midwest, a lot smaller than what we were used to. I was not happy. Especially when he accepted the job for that town, the morning I was in labor with our third child. He went to talk to the CEO and find us a place to live a week later, and we moved to that podunk town two and half weeks after that. Now I could’ve thrown a fit, and would probably have had every right to (I mean who is on the phone while his wife is in labor, really!!!) But you know what…
It was the best experience of my life. I made some great friends in that town, and I miss the parish, and I wish we hadn’t had to move away from there, because I miss it. But I trust that God and Holy Spirit are helping guide my husband in doing what is best for our family. It bothers me when wives and future wives say that they will “NEVER, EVER submit to their husbands,” as if their husbands are acting as autonomous individuals. Apparently it doesn’t occur to them that the good Catholic husband, faithful to the Church, has the Holy Spirit guiding him and the trust of God as well as his trust in God that he will be able to take care of his family. The ones that follow the Holy Spirit and trust in God, they are the ones that will listen to their wives and allow a “partnership” to grow, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t to be submitted to.
Of course, that doesn’t mean that I never get my way. Are you kidding me? I convinced my husband to take all (now 6 of us) to Atlanta with him while he went to a conference. We went to the Coca Cola Museum, the Cyclorama, and Stone Mountain. The kids and I had a blast! He was stuck in meetings for 15 hours a day. hehehe
And you better believe when he begins spending too much time on the computer, I most certainly disconnected the router until we “discuss” how much time he should be spending with the children.
By the way: Chi Rho made this statement in refuting the idea of submission meaning “under the mission” Furthermore, it comes from the Latin “submittere”. Sub: to place under, mittere: to send. I’m just trying to figure out how these are different. Especially many of the definitions of mission is involves sending. I think I understand what you were trying to get at, but either in Latin or English, it’s the same thing.
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Cristiano
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Can you please post the references because to obey (in Latin obedio,obedire) is quite different from submitto, submittere.I have seen the “submission= under the husband’s mission” idea de-bunked a couple of times here on CAF. I can do a search to find the specific thread(s) if anyone wants to see it.
Also, the idea that wives also should obey their husbands is in the Bible, in the OT and NT. Again…this has been posted about in multiple threads but I’d be happy to pull the info up if anyone wants to see it.
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ac_claire
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I posted it a few posts above yours, post #37…It’s from Titus 2:5. Actually, it’s funny because I pulled it from the same thread you and I were on several months ago about this same subject, and you made the same point about the Latin.
Which is a good point, btw. But I still do think the two worlds are more alike in meaning than they are different.
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Kit15
Guest
I don’t really have an issue with the whole “submit” thing either. DH doesn’t want me to be an obedient doll (how boring). I’m happy to submit to that.
When we were in the process of buying the house, while I was present at all meetings and my opinion was always welcome and seriously considered, I usually deferred to my husband to make the final choice. Not because he demanded it be so…he’s studied the housing market and knows economics better than I do. Our realtor expressed her surprise at my attitude. Many times the less knowledgeable half of the couple (sometimes the man…sometimes the woman) wants more involvement for the sake of more involvement and nothing gets done. But I’m not going to try and push myself into things I’m no expert in. He gives me the same courtesy. He knows that there are some things I’m more of an expert in and in his wisdom he knows to listen.
But that never gave him free reign to choose against me to spite me. If we disagreed and I relented, it was because he always had a reason…a GOOD reason. If he lost his job and we had to move to the other side of the country, I’d follow him. Why? He’s the primary breadwinner, his degree is more valuable in the workforce than mine is, and this is a real solution to get out of a serious problem. If it were the opposite and I was the primary breadwinner, the decision would be the same. As much as I wouldn’t like it, for me to dig my heels in for the sake of digging my heels in won’t solve anything.
He doesn’t lord over me and so I am not afraid to defer to him now and then. If I am REALLY bothered by something, something that even a good reason can’t convince, he will exhaust other options and either find a compromise or go back to his original decision (and by then I’m more amiable to it because other options were exhausted). Usually we’re on the same page or we are able to come to some adequate compromise.
This is completely different from a man that tells you to do a, b, and c simply because he is the man and because of that, his word is law. The stark difference between two Catholic boys I know and their approach to submission is amazing. One is going to take excellent care of my sister when they marry and I know they will have a real partnership in their marriage. The other was emotionally abusing and blackmailing my other sister (using the Paul text as his reasoning) while they were only dating. Fortunately she wasn’t the only person dating an amateur theologian. With some education and the support of her family she was able to snap out of her attachment long enough to dump him.
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ac_claire
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I don’t look at the verses and concept of “a partnership of equals” to be mutually exclusive. Men and women are equal in dignity as human beings…our roles, in general, are just different.
I just wanted to say, too, that it’s interesting that I’m always taking this side on these debates, because IRL it’s one of the things I struggle with the most in my own marriage. I believe that if I learned to submit more, with love, that our marriage would be better. Equally, the more that my husband submits his own will and wants for the good of the family (for example-- taking a shift at work that pays more but cuts into his personal time, etc.), that also helps our marriage and it’s also something that he’s called to do as a husband…to love me as Christ loves the Church. IE: to die (to himself) for me. For the family. At the moment he’s better at his role than I am at mine, but I believe in what the Church says about this 100% so I’m working on it. I also believe that, above all, we are partners.
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Cristiano
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Woman, you are young and I am old. I cannot even remember where I put my car keys. How do you expect that I remember a discussion that we had months ago. On top of that you you force me to overcome my laziness and search CAF for our discussion. The fact that I made the same point about the Latin does not mean that I am right, it simply means that I repeat myself too often.I posted it a few posts above yours, post #37…It’s from Titus 2:5. Actually, it’s funny because I pulled it from the same thread you and I were on several months ago about this same subject, and you made the same point about the Latin.
Which is a good point, btw. But I still do think the two worlds are more alike in meaning than they are different.
Come and visit us here in Texas.
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ac_claire
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Woman, you are young and I am old. I cannot even remember where I put my car keys. How do you expect that I remember a discussion that we had months ago. On top of that you you force me to overcome my laziness and search CAF for our discussion. The fact that I made the same point about the Latin does not mean that I am right, it simply means that I repeat myself too often.
Ok, well for those who are only seeing this thread, I hope you don’t mind but here’s what you said about the root word for the Latin of “obedient” in Titus 2:Aw, I would love to…you have no idea. Aside from the weather (which I prefer in Kansas, even though we still get hot), I do miss Austin. Have a lot of family in Dallas, friends in Austin and my dad is still there languishing in the nursing home down the street from St. Louis King of France church. When I was there I used to take him to Mass when he was able to go. Now, a priest comes to the home and gives communion once a week, and they have a non-denomination service for everyone on Sundays. We’re trying to get the wheels turning to get him moved up here, but it’s hard. He’s on Medicaid and very few nursing homes (or doctors, for that matter) seem to want to take Medicaid anymore. Sigh.Come and visit us here in Texas.
Anyhow, sorry everyone for going so OT.
Carry on!
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severus68
Guest
I would think God/the Holy Spirit would be guiding you also, not just your husband. Isn’t God also asking men to trust in the women they marry? Children need to obey, they are immature and need to be guided to prepare for their lives as adults. Years ago, women were considered like children and yes, wives as chattels. You have the right to choose how you want to live your life. However, with respect, I admire women who are prepared to take responsibility and participate fully in a marriage as an equal.
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Serap
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Thank you! I will not submit to my husband. I may concede if I feel that the argument is just not worth it, but I do not submit if I feel strongly about something. I am not my husband’s employee responsible for cleaning the house and caring for the kids. I assume that role b/c I want to, but it’s not out of submission.
I am now working 8-4, and I take it as my responsiblity to come home and be with my kids (and feed them). If the grass needs mowing, then my husband takes it as his responsibility to cut the grass b4 dinner.
When we are told to submit to our husbands, I see it as I am submitting my life to the good of my family. I try to be the best mom I can be and I try to be the best wife I can be. I try not to spread hostility at home and work on being a positive influence in their lives. I submit to loving my family.
I would be furious if my husband made plans to move to a town without my husband consulting me first.
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ac_claire
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Hi severus…I rememebr being in past threads with you, too! Man, how long have I been at CAF?! The threads are starting to repeat themselves and run together now lol. But anyhow, can you see that what you’re saying above isn’t necessarily incompatible with what the Bible and the Church says about the way marriages are structured and the different roles of men and women? I’ve already said that in my own marriage, above all, we are partners. But if you are Christian, you can’t just dismiss out of hand all the teachings about this. You can find your own ways of living it in your marriage that work for you (& your husband) but I don’t understand outright contradicting it.
Also nobody has said that the marriage relationship should be ANYTHING like a parent-child relationship, except a couple of y’all who are insisting (I guess?) that the Bible verses are just wrong? My husband and I sure as heck don’t relate like that.
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Serap
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Pope JP II explains it all in this Letter to Women. He does’t ask women to submit to their husbands like a father/daughter relationship either.
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ac_claire
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…neither has any other pope in any other writing. Neither does the Bible. I don’t get why some of y’all are stuck on this. (I have read the Letter to Women, btw, it’s great.)
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Serap
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I can read that letter over and over again and it inspires me every time.
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tafan
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I am pretty sure that any husband who manages to “love their wife as Christ so loved his Church” would not be too worried about the submission clause. I suppose any wife, whose husbands manages that level of love would not be too worried of the submission clause.
Me thinks, the focus is on the wrong verse.
Christ not only loved the Church so much that he gave up His life forit, He loved it so much he gave it real authority.
Me thinks, the focus is on the wrong verse.
Christ not only loved the Church so much that he gave up His life forit, He loved it so much he gave it real authority.
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Serap
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Unfortunately a great many husbands think that submits means a father/daughter type relationship in marriage.
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severus68
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Hello claire, yes I remember too.
As I see it, there is only one role that is exclusve to a woman - being a mother. The world has changed. Women are now as highly educated as men and many have financial security, Being Christian/Catholic does not require that a person must conform to an inflexible, uncompromising structure of a marriage. Many married women work outside the home and help with the finances, often equally, at times earning more. What are these different roles that husbands and wives have in a marriage exactly? Its a great thing that fathers also spend much time with their children and bond with them If a couple decide that the husband will stay at home while the wife works, what is wrong with that?
In law there are partnerships where all the partners have equal interests/shares, equal voting rights. Then there are partnerships with one partner with the majority interest/share and thus the majority vote. Yes claire, you say a Christian marriage is a partnership but not an equal partnership.
I have posted here about verses in another of Paul’s letters and I have in other similar threads also referred to Pope John Paul II and what he wrote about marriage and the mutual submission of husband and wife. Why refer to what Popes said in the 19th and early 20th centuries and even earlier? As someone posted, we are not Muslims or fundamentalists.
Children are expected to obey and defer to their parents. How is a wife submitting to and defering to her husband so very different please?
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ChiRho
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Because newer isn’t always better. If St. Paul’s 2000 year old words are still relevant, you can bet a 19th century pope still has some relevancy.
Acting as if women and men are equal except in the fact that one can give birth treats the only difference as one in genitalia. This completely ignores that men and women have different tendencies and aptitudes, and thus different strengths, weaknesses, faults and advantages. It is obvious why it is better for a woman to stay home with her children than the father, if both cant — because she’s the woman! Women have a biologically different relationship with their children, and no amount of social “progress” can negate this fact.
Well, if you won’t accept the words of St. Paul, why should you accept that children should obey their parents? Maybe that is also old fashioned, since it was written in the desert several thousand years ago. Maybe the husband also shouldn’t have to love his wife as Christ loved the Church.
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tafan
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I think this is more an issue in the US with its protestant/puritan heritage than in historically catholic countries. That’s my experience. It seems much more a protestant mentality in the day-to-day life of a marriage. Like many of those protestant cultural norms in the US, most of us Catholics have been affected by them to some extent.
Maybe I am wrong, but that is my impression.
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trinichiqn
Guest
Remember also that Ephesians 5:21 calls for husbands and wives to submit themselves to one another, which most people tend to forget. Both are called to do what is best for each other and the family so if it is best that the woman goes to work or the man stays home to tend the family that is what is to be done. A man may not be able to breastfeed his kids but he is able to nurture and take care of them.
As someone here already said that if a husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church, he would not be concerned about whether his wife submits to him or not, I think he would be too busy ensuring he is doing everything he can for the good of his wife and family even if it means staying home with the kids while his wife works.
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