Wolf Hall TV series

[goneiri]

Yes well the author Hilary Mantel is a well known anti-Catholic. She talks quite openly about her intense dislike for the church and her own turning away from the Catholic faith she was raised in.

She infamously declared in one interview that the “Catholic Church is not for respectable people”.

telegraph.co.uk/culture/9262955/Hilary-Mantel-Catholic-Church-is-not-for-respectable-people.html

The editor of the Catholic newspaper The Tablet wrote that Wolf Hall is anti-Catholic in intent and it has become the modern, acceptable way of being anti-Catholic. It works as a sort of covert anti-Catholicism.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Yes well the author Hilary Mantel is a well known anti-Catholic. She talks quite openly about her intense dislike for the church and her own turning away from the Catholic faith she was raised in.

She infamously declared in one interview that the “Catholic Church is not for respectable people”.

telegraph.co.uk/culture/9262955/Hilary-Mantel-Catholic-Church-is-not-for-respectable-people.html

The editor of the Catholic newspaper The Tablet wrote that Wolf Hall is anti-Catholic in intent and it has become the modern, acceptable way of being anti-Catholic. It works as a sort of covert anti-Catholicism.

I guess I was naive thinking she might have been anti-Cromwell.
She definitely has no love for the Catholic Church. She was lucky to have had the education she had at the convent school.
If she is an atheist she should have no love for the reformers either.
Seems to be going way off to say the Catholic Church is not for respectable people.

 

[goneiri]

I guess I was naive thinking she might have been anti-Cromwell.
She definitely has no love for the Catholic Church. She was lucky to have had the education she had at the convent school.
If she is an atheist she should have no love for the reformers either.
Seems to be going way off to say the Catholic Church is not for respectable people.

The UK tends to be anti-Catholic and with a fairly commonly held view among the population that this anti-Catholicism is justified. i.e. we’re not anti-Catholic we’re just pointing out the truth that the Catholic church is evil. Check out the Amazon page for Wolf Hall DVD on the UK [and the USA] sites and you can see massive down votes for anyone who even brings up the subject of anti-Catholicism.

The Brits has been feed a steady stream of anti-Catholic bias for hundreds of years and it has only gotten worse in recent years with the BBC hitting the church at every opportunity. .

 

[Cailte]

Personally, I think that as long as you accept it as a fictionalised version of historical events, there isn’t a problem with it historically.

That argument seems to be only made when it is the ‘other’ i.e Catholc point of view that is being denigrated and misrepresented. In other instances there is often public outcry in Britain when the historical fiction being presented is distorted. Recently the BBC drama "Land Girls’ set in WWII came in for public outrage because it was inaccurate in much smaller ways than Wolf Hall. That one hit home for the public - but misrepresenting Catholicism in a bad light seems to get a pass.

 

[gam197]

Yes well the author Hilary Mantel is a well known anti-Catholic. She talks quite openly about her intense dislike for the church and her own turning away from the Catholic faith she was raised in.

She infamously declared in one interview that the “Catholic Church is not for respectable people”.

telegraph.co.uk/culture/9262955/Hilary-Mantel-Catholic-Church-is-not-for-respectable-people.html

The editor of the Catholic newspaper The Tablet wrote that Wolf Hall is anti-Catholic in intent and it has become the modern, acceptable way of being anti-Catholic. It works as a sort of covert anti-Catholicism.

I watched the first episode. Before I read anything, I got the feeling that the lead person is this is was Cromwell. He is faithful to Cardinal Wolsley. He is only trying to do what is right and clashes with More who is more of a partier and a bit beligerent. He is a loving husband and father who loses his wife and two daughters to disease. He had an abusive father but goes to visit him because of the wish of the dead (catholic) wife. So sad.Just seemed off though. Now I know why.

Here is another article on Mandel and how she is distorting the truth

Mantel has made no secret of her desire to overturn the traditional understanding of “the king’s great matter.” One of her stated goals in writing “Wolf Hall” was to take on Robert Bolt’s 1954 stage play, “A Man for All Seasons.”

washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/04/05/how-wolf-hall-will-entertain-millions-and-threaten-to-distort-history-in-the-process/

I would like to watch something more accurate. Any ideas?

 

[HollyDolly]

There is a biography about Thomas Cromwell at Amazon ,.com
When he goes to visit his father the black smith, you see him pick up a hammer and hid it.The impression I got wa that he was going to defend himself if the old man tried to bully him and pay him back for what he experienced as a child.
His father when talking to him mentions the family the Cromwells having at one times some manors but lost them. If the family ever did,they may have lost them during the War of the Roses. They might have been landed gentry or knights at one time, but it would take a professional genealogist to find out. There is a connection to Oliver Cromwell.
Cromwell was a man of his times.Did he always do the right thing no,of course not.
That he was very ambitious there’s no doubt. When Thomas More,George Boleyn and others were executed,everybody and his brother had their hand out to the king for a piece of the pie. My ancestory on my dad’s side is german. His relatives in those days were land holders and as he put it petty court officals. The cousins in the Black Forest are herditary foresters. Some of them probably acted the same way to get where they were. Though they weren’t blacksmiths but were untitled nobility. Most of those in the military were officers including a couple of generals. They just aired the first episode so can’t give my take on Thomas More yet in the series. We can’t judge these people by modern standards,though I can unmderstand why the comments about anti-catholicism due to the author being anti- catholic.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I watched the first episode last night. I have read both books.
It seems events move faster in this show. So far I am finding the show pretty good. Since reading this thread I am trying to be aware of the bias and perhaps motivation of the author.
I was raised in the episcopal church and now am Catholic so I find the history fascinating, but said because of the bloodshed and then the destruction or confiscation of property belonging to the Catholic church.

 

[gam197]

There is a biography about Thomas Cromwell at Amazon ,.com
When he goes to visit his father the black smith, you see him pick up a hammer and hid it.The impression I got wa that he was going to defend himself if the old man tried to bully him and pay him back for what he experienced as a child.
His father when talking to him mentions the family the Cromwells having at one times some manors but lost them. If the family ever did,they may have lost them during the War of the Roses. They might have been landed gentry or knights at one time, but it would take a professional genealogist to find out. There is a connection to Oliver Cromwell.
Cromwell was a man of his times.Did he always do the right thing no,of course not.
That he was very ambitious there’s no doubt. When Thomas More,George Boleyn and others were executed,everybody and his brother had their hand out to the king for a piece of the pie. My ancestory on my dad’s side is german. His relatives in those days were land holders and as he put it petty court officals. The cousins in the Black Forest are herditary foresters. Some of them probably acted the same way to get where they were. Though they weren’t blacksmiths but were untitled nobility. Most of those in the military were officers including a couple of generals. They just aired the first episode so can’t give my take on Thomas More yet in the series. We can’t judge these people by modern standards,though I can unmderstand why the comments about anti-catholicism due to the author being anti- catholic.

I really love this period of history as I try to understand the protestant reformation and why it took place,

A series like this brings it to life and I can see that there were these reforms groups kind of hidden in the shadows trying to make headway for what ever reasons.

What is the significance of Thomas Cromwell. I thought it was related to Oliver Cromwell.

Why is Thomas Cromwell so important. Is it because he favored the reformation, had read Tyndale. We know that Anne, his second wife although a catholic also had books by Tyndale and gave a book or influenced King Henry to read. These books seem to help the King make his break from from the church.

Tyndale is executed by the church.

 

[Cailte]

I really love this period of history as I try to understand the protestant reformation and why it took place,

A series like this brings it to life and I can see that there were these reforms groups kind of hidden in the shadows trying to make headway for what ever reasons.

.

The problem with a series like this is that for people who are uninformed about the era or looking for answers this is not the place to go. This is a biased and largely invented version of events and puts the Catholic Chruch of the time in a bad light, badly in need of reform. It utterly fails to give the point of view of what the church was actually doing and most especially how important the Church was to the local community. The monasteries and monks were good selfless men who served the poor and the sick and were vital to community life - but you will not find this truth in this TV drama.

The English Reformation centered around the issue of the annulment of Henry VIII’s marriage. He applied to Rome for an annulment and when the Pope refused it the result was a break with Rome and an end to Papal authority in England. Bishops in England granted the annulment against the Pope’s directive and the King became the head of the church in place of the Pope.

The series depicts Thomas More in a totally false way. More is scripted to be a self serving, hypocritical man with only self interest to guide him. It’s fiction but using historical figures to pass this fiction off as reality’ Eamon Duffy, a respected historian of the period say this about the use of propaganda in this work:

“For [while] it is perfectly true that as a Crown agent, and then as Lord Chancellor, More did pursue heretics. He never presided at a heresy trial (no layman could) and he never condemned anyone to death for their religious beliefs. In his autobiographical Apology, he refuted the charges of torture and maltreatment of suspects that Wolf Hall reports, accusations that, through John Foxe’s hostile elaboration in his Elizabethan propaganda work, Actes and Monuments, nevertheless persisted down the centuries”.

And Duffy goes on" More was neither blood-soaked nor a hypocrite [as Wolf Hall suggests]… In an age when all but one of the bishops had perjured themselves by signing up to the Royal Supremacy, More died rather than swear an oath he did not believe. We can therefore trust his solemn insistence that no one in his custody for heresy had ever suffered “so much as a flip on the forehead” much less been tortured. "

 

[Cailte]

What is the significance of Thomas Cromwell. I thought it was related to Oliver Cromwell.

There is some family relationship but they lived in two different centuries. Thomas Cromwell was of the Tudor period and oversaw the destruction and dissolution of the monasteries. This gave the Crown much needed revenue as they seized all the assets of the Catholic church in England. This TV series depicts this as a moral decision i.e the monks were corrupt - whereas it was much more of a revenue issue.

Oliver Cromwell was over a century later and was a Puritan who, for one thing, was largely responsible for beheading the King, Charles I because of Charles’ suspected devotion to Catholicism. The puritans then took over England and there was no monarchy for over 10 years. Ultimately they failed in their rule - they were even more corrupt and bloodthirsty than the monarchy - and the monarchy was restored in 1660…

Oliver Cromwell also led a killing expedition into Ireland where he killed thousands of Catholics and boasted in his letters of killing Catholic priests. He considered Catholicism as an agent of evil.

 

[gam197]

There is some family relationship but they lived in two different centuries. Thomas Cromwell was of the Tudor period and oversaw the destruction and dissolution of the monasteries. This gave the Crown much needed revenue as they seized all the assets of the Catholic church in England. This TV series depicts this as a moral decision i.e the monks were corrupt - whereas it was much more of a revenue issue.

Oliver Cromwell was over a century later and was a Puritan who, for one thing, was largely responsible for beheading the King, Charles I because of Charles’ suspected devotion to Catholicism. The puritans then took over England and there was no monarchy for over 10 years. Ultimately they failed in their rule - they were even more corrupt and bloodthirsty than the monarchy - and the monarchy was restored in 1660…

Oliver Cromwell also led a killing expedition into Ireland where he killed thousands of Catholics and boasted in his letters of killing Catholic priests. He considered Catholicism as an agent of evil.

I’d love to see an historical movie on this to put the “bad” actors in place.

It is interesting that there is a possibility that these two characters Thomas and Oliver Cromwell are related. Such a strange family line… I’d like to know about them.

The English Reformation centered around the issue of the annulment of Henry VIII’s marriage. He applied to Rome for an annulment and when the Pope refused it the result was a break with Rome and an end to Papal authority in England. Bishops in England granted the annulment against the Pope’s directive and the King became the head of the church in place of the Pope.

Was it just about this? I know that this was the major issue but conspiring underneath was this reformation going on. We know it happened in Germany and other countries and were there protestants trying to take down the church. We only have to look at today and how many people would like the church to change and how many hate the church. It wouldn’t be surprising if there was this undercurrent taking place 500 years ago to change the church and that they were also playing politics and that is why people like Thomas Cromwell seem important to me. How many others were there and was there an underground. It shows it in the movie.

This period in history has got to be one that needs to fully studied and not lost. The Vatican has original documents from this time period. They showed some of them on the series about Anne Boyleyn. (Again this series makes it into this grand love story when in fact I think that it is way overdone) She and her sister are two very interesting people. According to the series Ann also helps the King to change because of a book by Tyndale.

This call for an English bible that everyone can read is also an issue. People by nature like to read for themselves. It was in Latin or Greek until this time and few would have access to it actually by reading. This change probably had to also do with the printing press. Many upper class people would have been able to purchase items.

For many catholics, this change in reading the bible did not take place until the 1960’s . My parents attended mass but never opened a bible because it was thought that to read a bible was not wrong but that it was better left to priests, so that they can translate and give proper meaning,

Yet in all this, one change that did not take place at least openly until 1930’s was the protestant view of contraception.

 

[gam197]

Caught the special on PBS about Thomas Cromwall.

At the end , they said without Cromwall and Henry the VIII, there would be no United States of America.

There would be no parliament.

What they do get right I think…

1. the undercurent of the reformation
2. King Henry’s desire for a son caused this split.
3. How Cromwall came up with the ideas to take over the monasteries and sold them to make money for Kind Henry and his wars.Even thought there was corruption in the church,the monasteries were seen as central to helping maintain the culture.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Caught the special on PBS about Thomas Cromwall.

At the end , they said without Cromwall and Henry the VIII, there would be no United States of America.

There would be no parliament.

What they do get right I think…

1. the undercurent of the reformation
2. King Henry’s desire for a son caused this split.
3. How Cromwall came up with the ideas to take over the monasteries and sold them to make money for Kind Henry and his wars.Even thought there was corruption in the church,the monasteries were seen as central to helping maintain the culture.

I watched that program also. The sad part is that the Catholic faith was important to the king. Cromwell seemed to have misled the king on a few things. I missed how Cromwell fell out of favor with the king.
I would like to rewatch it because there were too many interruptions
and I couldn’t concentrate on the entire show. Yes having a male heir was very important to the king. I think the king had many regrets in his later years. I can understand the difficult position the king was end hoping for the annullment and also the Pope.

 

[HollyDolly]

Gam197 from what I saw on Wikepedia ,Thomas Cromwell was a protestant though his wife remained catholic as was shown in Wolf Hall. He was very important in regards to the Reformation in England… So was George and Anne Boelyn. If the pope had just given Henry the annulment he wanted, maybe the whole thing ,founding the Church of England wouldn’t have happend. But Pope Clement was stuck between a rock and a hard place with Catherine of Aragon’s nephew Charles the Fifth, King of Spain and head of the Holy Roman Empire. I do think that there may have been true love between Henry and Anne, but because she didn’t give him the son he needed, his love turned to hate perhasp.
Henry himself stuck mainly to the old ceremonies and such of the Catholic Church. His son,EdwardVI, by his third wife Jane Seymour was taught by reformers and started bringing the Church of England in that direction. Mary his half sister of course tried to bring the Catholic church back. Elizabeth seemed to prefer the church as it was under her father, not her half brother Edward.
I don’t know how much bible reading my parents did though we had one. However, my dad when attending Marquette University in Milwaukee studied apologetics with the Jesuits.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Gam197 from what I saw on Wikepedia ,Thomas Cromwell was a protestant though his wife remained catholic as was shown in Wolf Hall. He was very important in regards to the Reformation in England… So was George and Anne Boelyn. If the pope had just given Henry the annulment he wanted, maybe the whole thing ,founding the Church of England wouldn’t have happend. But Pope Clement was stuck between a rock and a hard place with Catherine of Aragon’s nephew Charles the Fifth, King of Spain and head of the Holy Roman Empire. I do think that there may have been true love between Henry and Anne, but because she didn’t give him the son he needed, his love turned to hate perhasp.
Henry himself stuck mainly to the old ceremonies and such of the Catholic Church. His son,EdwardVI, by his third wife Jane Seymour was taught by reformers and started bringing the Church of England in that direction. Mary his half sister of course tried to bring the Catholic church back. Elizabeth seemed to prefer the church as it was under her father, not her half brother Edward.
I don’t know how much bible reading my parents did though we had one. However, my dad when attending Marquette University in Milwaukee studied apologetics with the Jesuits.

Yes the history between Catholics and protestants in England was very sad. I hear Prince Charles is getting acquainted with the orthodox church which was the faith of his father before he married Elizabeth and had to convert to Anglicanism.

 

[gam197]

I watched that program also. The sad part is that the Catholic faith was important to the king. Cromwell seemed to have misled the king on a few things. I missed how Cromwell fell out of favor with the king.
I would like to rewatch it because there were too many interruptions
and I couldn’t concentrate on the entire show. Yes having a male heir was very important to the king. I think the king had many regrets in his later years. I can understand the difficult position the king was end hoping for the annullment and also the Pope.

Thomas Cromwell arranged for marriage between King Henry and German Anne of Cleves. a political marriage . They had only a photograph and the King had never met her.

When the King did finally meet her, her looks repulsed him but he went through with the marriage only to get it annulled.This put Thomas Cromwell out.

Once out and in the tower, others plotted against him.

In stepped the Duke of Norfolk who proposed Catherine Howard, a relative and they did married but she apparently was known to actually be scandalous. Again whether these were true or not no one knows. The shows tells it was so but Catherine Howard had catholic leanings and it was protestant-leaning archbishop Thomas Cranmer who went after her and had her outed so again politics.

The last of his sixth wives begged for her life and the King allowed her to live.

The court was crucial to the times. If a person was banned from court then he could not speak up for himself. They said that there were 1000 men and 200 women allowed at court.

 

[gam197]

Gam197 from what I saw on Wikepedia ,Thomas Cromwell was a protestant though his wife remained catholic as was shown in Wolf Hall. He was very important in regards to the Reformation in England… So was George and Anne Boelyn. If the pope had just given Henry the annulment he wanted, maybe the whole thing ,founding the Church of England wouldn’t have happend. But Pope Clement was stuck between a rock and a hard place with Catherine of Aragon’s nephew Charles the Fifth, King of Spain and head of the Holy Roman Empire. I do think that there may have been true love between Henry and Anne, but because she didn’t give him the son he needed, his love turned to hate perhasp.
Henry himself stuck mainly to the old ceremonies and such of the Catholic Church. His son,EdwardVI, by his third wife Jane Seymour was taught by reformers and started bringing the Church of England in that direction. Mary his half sister of course tried to bring the Catholic church back. Elizabeth seemed to prefer the church as it was under her father, not her half brother Edward.
I don’t know how much bible reading my parents did though we had one. However, my dad when attending Marquette University in Milwaukee studied apologetics with the Jesuits.

Thomas Cromwell did seem to know about the reformation leaders in England. His wife was a catholic and possibly if she had lived, there would have been less meddling.

I had never heard his name before but he seems to have had a major part in coming up with the idea of selling the monasteries to gain cash.

 

[Elizium23]

Thomas Cromwell arranged for marriage between King Henry and German Anne of Cleves. a political marriage . They had only a photograph and the King had never met her.

When the King did finally meet her, her looks repulsed him but he went through with the marriage only to get it annulled.This put Thomas Cromwell out.

That must have been quite a high-tech photograph!

 

[gam197]

The aristocracy ruled England and there was no switching between classes , seldom done.

Most of the ladies in waiting were related. The Howard family, Duke of Norfolk who was uncle to both Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard was catholic and the family is still in power today.

 

[gam197]

That must have been quite a high-tech photograph!

Sorry, it couldn’t been a photograph but must have been a drawing or painting.

I’m glad someone brought up Cromwell’s ambition. I thought about that when Cromwell put on Cardinal Wolsey’s ring.

I wonder about this court. It seems that people just showed up. I am confused by this as wouldn’t the king be highly guarded but the series makes it look like people just walked into this great hall and the king just strolled in and talk to those he chose.