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7_Sorrows
Guest
I thought the Tudors was very good.
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HollyDolly
Guest
I did a little digging around .It appears they got that part right.Ralph de Cromwell,3rd Baron Cromwell fell afoul of the king at the time,and apparently the family lost their manors,so I was hearing things right.
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gam197
Guest
So Thomas Cromwell wasn’t from a poor family. That makes sense. It was rich and poor, very little middle class. The rich stay within their own class and keep their families within their own class by marriage.
Have only watched a few episodes, but I like how Catherine was played in the Tudors. She was from noble stock and acted like a saintly lady. Women had little say and they were told to keep out of affairs which sometimes can be a good thing.
I’d still like to know more about these monasteries. In a land of 2+ million, closing all their religious institutes and taking over the churches, their books, relics had to be very painful.
This lead to the “Pilgrimage of Grace” where up to 40 thousand citizens rebelled only to be sent back home with the thought that they would get their abbeys back. It goes on with all the leaders being deceitfully tricked by the king and then tortured and murdered. Then to have their heads put on stakes to place fear in anyone who disobeyed the king is too much. The printing presses with their ability to spread propaganda was new but so effective.
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Augustine
Guest
I thought that it was laughably shallow and mean. Did Cromwall really need Tyndale’s translation to resent the Church since he was teaching his daughter Latin and Greek?
In the end, superb production, fine photography, stilted acting, shallow characters. IOW, all the ingredients of propaganda piece.
Christus resurrexit!
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Augustine
Guest
I made the mistake of visiting the Tower of London last Sunday. In its chapel are buried over 1500 political prisoners who were tortured and killed and burried in a mass grave. Of course, the beefeaters described them as traitors and criminals of lèse majesté deserving death.
My heart sank to its deepest point at the end of tour in the chapel, when it was pointed that the bodies of the victims of that police state were in the crypt, including Sts. Thomas More and John Fischer. I wanted to pray before their relics, but I was told that access to the crypt is forbidden. IOW, even the Church Triumphant is still persecuted in England.
According to one of the beefeaters, as he commented to me, the Tower is civilization. If so, then the USSR’s Lubyanka, Cuba’s paredón, America’s Guantanamo, Apartheid’s Robben Island, etc, are the epitome of civilization.
Christus resurrexit!
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Augustine
Guest
It’s pretty amusing to watch such educated men who speak Latin fluently feign scandal for the Church hiding the truth of the Bible behind Latin…
Christus resurrexit!
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gam197
Guest
Good point. Why would he need an English version of the bible. Is it about ego? We are entering the new world. Why was he teaching his daughters Greek and Latin? Remember the bible was forbidden to be read by most churches. . The understanding was that it was the priests and theologians who could give us the true meaning, not just the literal one.If this was a falsehood, then it was very prevalent in the culture.
Catholics accepted that up until the 1960’s when it seem the church realized that we would not all become heretics because we read the bible. My parents would have never read the bible and I remember being told this.
I was told that the reasons priests were not allowed to marry is because it didn’t work -, their wives meddled in church affairs.
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Elizium23
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gam197
Guest
I don’t get this about the martyred either. It seems we do not know the correct figures because traitors could have just been catholics.
I am totally puzzled. We have about this northern part of England(40,000) which is leading a “grace pilgrimage” so it would seem they are pretty strong in their faith. Then they just fold, no resentment, no anger passed done generation to generation, they just disappear.
In Germany today, we see a northern protestant and a southern catholic state.
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gam197
Guest
As a child, I was told we should not read it as as we would not get correct teaching. There is some truth in that so it didn’t make me want to read it. I was attending mass regularly with my parents. As I matured and went to church, I saw there were bible study groups so I knew differently. I am not sure how many of these groups existed during the 1940’s and 1950’s. Maybe they were there and my parents didn’t seek them out.
It certainly would make sense that the priest and monks like Luther would have been required to read so that they could teach the regular church goer.
It certainly would make sense that the English versions were translations and a great deal can be lost in translation so it was understandable that is why they would be opposed to Tynsdale.
So maybe the issue is that they were allowed to read the Latin and Greek version but there would have been few that would be able to do that and even fewer that would have been able to read the English (mostly aristocrats).Literacy was an issue. The public schools did not start until 1655 in Medfield. I have seen a number of this markers in Massachusetts - dating when each town had their first public school. Little red schools houses have also been preserved and we can see even then that they were pretty small.
I can somewhat understand the anger that if I am an aristocrat,(educated) and I can read, I would want to be able to read it The printing press is shown in these series so that factors in. I am guessing that the readings at mass would be in Latin?
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gam197
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"
Watched only a few episodes. Episode 24 “The Death of a Queen” was pretty effective when it showed an endless screen shot of all the catholics hanged…
youtube.com/watch?v=1Oo-c5p0osY
Kings and Queens of England - Episode 3: The Tudors (History Documentary)
Saw this on the dynasty line.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
I maybe missed the episode you are referring to. I don’t remember a wide screen shot showing the scene you describe. I am sure there are a few episodes I missed."
Watched only a few episodes. Episode 24 “The Death of a Queen” was pretty effective when it showed an endless screen shot of all the catholics hanged…
youtube.com/watch?v=1Oo-c5p0osY
Kings and Queens of England - Episode 3: The Tudors (History Documentary)
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gam197
Guest
“Pilgrimage of Grace”
It was a very emotional seen where Lord Sheldon sees the hangings of catholics after seeing many deaths on the ground, At first it was a close up scene showing a young boy child hanged and then it widens.
Here is a screen shot of the scene.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
No. I definitely did not see that episode. How sad!!!
Were there more Catholics killed in England do you think than Protestants? Was there as much bloodshed in other European countries between Catholics and protestants?
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gam197
Guest
Not sure. We know there was a major battle during the Pilgrimage of Grace and many died but were these viewed as casualties or not. in the UK, we also know many priests and monks were killed during the reformation and later made saints so their names are actually listed.
We also know that under Mary I and from Foxe’s book that when she tried to stop the reformation, many protestant leaders were killed.
During these years of repression, at least in England, we can see there were penal code laws and though they did not necessarily kill outright, their policies certainly could have.
There is a scene in The Tudors during the" Seige of Boulogne" in France where the King and his noble or military leaders are eating lavishly while 2000 of his men are dieing from scurvy because of lack of food.
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gam197
Guest
Watched the 3rd episode but this Wolf Hall(named for Jane Seymour’s home) is useless. It is more of a supposedly biography of Thomas Cromwell’s life which makes up wonder about his life… Just a propaganda piece and not even a good story, boring.
I am glad The Tudors was mentioned. I had not originally watched because it is soft porn… It really does tell us a great deal about this period and the repression and intermingling of the reformation leaders and there a few web sites that give more accuracy to the truth of the characters and dates, King Henry was the first protestant ruler.
From our own history, we know of King David and how rulers were entwined with God so they were very powerful.
From our modern history in the church, we can see how abuse of power and suppression in the sexual cases have wreaked havoc but we also know there are ten of thousands of good priests.
We have history as was pointed in a prior post by Augustine where people actually visit these places - the Tower of London with its 1500 traitors. We have history book by William Carroll and Belloc. We have a history of seeing or avoiding the trash in movies such as "Doubt’(some catholics loved it and have discussed why ) and in books and putting them in its proper place. Because of their popularity most of us know about them. Think 50 Shades of Grey.
flavorwire.com/409714/40-trashy-books-that-are-actually-worth-reading/view-all
Peyton Place
Valley of Dolls
The Thornbirds
The Carpetbaggers
Go Ask Alice
With the internet, we often now have the ability to discuss the writers, actors point of view.
We need a clean version of “The Tudors” for discussion. The money that was spent on this series in costumes and sets makes it very watchable. I am now looking into series Henry VIII on Amazon which only has 3 stars and is also controversial…
This period is so entwined in our own culture. I read that “Three Blind Mice” is about the killing of Cramer,Hugh Latimer and Ridley.
I am glad The Tudors was mentioned. I had not originally watched because it is soft porn… It really does tell us a great deal about this period and the repression and intermingling of the reformation leaders and there a few web sites that give more accuracy to the truth of the characters and dates, King Henry was the first protestant ruler.
From our own history, we know of King David and how rulers were entwined with God so they were very powerful.
From our modern history in the church, we can see how abuse of power and suppression in the sexual cases have wreaked havoc but we also know there are ten of thousands of good priests.
We have history as was pointed in a prior post by Augustine where people actually visit these places - the Tower of London with its 1500 traitors. We have history book by William Carroll and Belloc. We have a history of seeing or avoiding the trash in movies such as "Doubt’(some catholics loved it and have discussed why ) and in books and putting them in its proper place. Because of their popularity most of us know about them. Think 50 Shades of Grey.
flavorwire.com/409714/40-trashy-books-that-are-actually-worth-reading/view-all
Peyton Place
Valley of Dolls
The Thornbirds
The Carpetbaggers
Go Ask Alice
With the internet, we often now have the ability to discuss the writers, actors point of view.
We need a clean version of “The Tudors” for discussion. The money that was spent on this series in costumes and sets makes it very watchable. I am now looking into series Henry VIII on Amazon which only has 3 stars and is also controversial…
This period is so entwined in our own culture. I read that “Three Blind Mice” is about the killing of Cramer,Hugh Latimer and Ridley.
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gam197
Guest
Were the women of this period as promiscuous as shown?
What were the penal laws?
What were all the laws signed into place by parliament to repress catholics?
How many people were in parliament and how was it run? France had a parliament. The Romans had a Senate. What are the differences?
We know that the modern England, the northern part (Liverpool) still has a large catholic population.
There is one scene in “The Tudors” where Cromwell tries to bring a group together to discuss the rebels or whomever are killing people. The King is in mourning for the lost of Jane and hasn’t been available for some time. He is with his fool.
They meet and then all walk out on Cromwell.
In a scene in “The Tudors” we see how the King later uses Mary bring her North(where the rebellion took place) to all the churches then having feasts and events.
What were the penal laws?
What were all the laws signed into place by parliament to repress catholics?
How many people were in parliament and how was it run? France had a parliament. The Romans had a Senate. What are the differences?
We know that the modern England, the northern part (Liverpool) still has a large catholic population.
There is one scene in “The Tudors” where Cromwell tries to bring a group together to discuss the rebels or whomever are killing people. The King is in mourning for the lost of Jane and hasn’t been available for some time. He is with his fool.
They meet and then all walk out on Cromwell.
In a scene in “The Tudors” we see how the King later uses Mary bring her North(where the rebellion took place) to all the churches then having feasts and events.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
I know one of the people Three Blind Mice is about - Cranmer, but I am not familiar with the other 2 you mentioned.
I love the costumes in this show Wolf Hall. I think the actor playing Cromwell is excellent. He is sexy to begin with (from a female point of view) which I seriously doubt the original Cromwell was. I watch the show with my neighbor. We compare him to a rooster prancing around the hen house! He portrays Cromwell at being in the middle of everything and knowing everything to survive in the king’s court.
Was it part of history that Cromwell had a post at the Jewel House?
I don’t remember this in the book.
Last night’s show was a little boring. I like the actor who plays the king also. Is Lord Chancellor the title for Thomas Moore?
This show is entertaining and full of intrigue. I thought the Coronation of Anne seemed very Catholic. Perhaps they have not set the Church of England up yet. Cromwell needed Anne because she was impressed by the protestant reformation and he needed Anne to help push the protestant agenda on to Henry. Elizabeth and Edward were more protestant rulers than King Henry VIII.
I love the costumes in this show Wolf Hall. I think the actor playing Cromwell is excellent. He is sexy to begin with (from a female point of view) which I seriously doubt the original Cromwell was. I watch the show with my neighbor. We compare him to a rooster prancing around the hen house! He portrays Cromwell at being in the middle of everything and knowing everything to survive in the king’s court.
Was it part of history that Cromwell had a post at the Jewel House?
I don’t remember this in the book.
Last night’s show was a little boring. I like the actor who plays the king also. Is Lord Chancellor the title for Thomas Moore?
This show is entertaining and full of intrigue. I thought the Coronation of Anne seemed very Catholic. Perhaps they have not set the Church of England up yet. Cromwell needed Anne because she was impressed by the protestant reformation and he needed Anne to help push the protestant agenda on to Henry. Elizabeth and Edward were more protestant rulers than King Henry VIII.
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gam197
Guest
I too love the costumes and sets.He is like a rooster but I am not sure about this in real life if the picture posted on wikipedia is accurate… He did serve as Master of the Jewel Office from 1532-1533 according to wikipedia. I see your point how he needs Anne to push forth the protestant agenda. Their kindred spirits are portrayed when he hold hands wiht Anne during the resignation of Thomas More.
King Henry purposely held all official coronation/feasts in line with the catholic church. He is not trying to alienate his citizens.
Watched the last episode of The Tudors on Netflix. The King’s voice sounded like Don Corleone.
I wondered about Catherine Parr. This get a little confusing because she is brought up on charges against the faith but what faith? She is a protestant reading what kind of books? According to wikipedia, it is the Catholics who want her out. Yet the archbishop Cramner is a protestant. We see the politics of Cramner in this episode.You asked about whether the church was repressed in Germany. I would think so if the Royal family was protestant. Anne of Cleves was protestant. There is no such thing as alimony checks so she stays in England. She floats between Mary and Catherine. At the end. the shows touts Elizabeth’s long reign.Just propaganda.I can’t see how you can view King Henry as not a strong Protestant leader. I like the scene where the King prays over his dying friend Brandon as if he were the Christ and tells him he will get well.
There is another factor that is brought up, humanism and Erasmus. This ideology was very prominent during this time.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
It makes you wonder how someone with such a poor and abusive childhood could have risen so far and earned the trust of the King. I wondered why he wanted the post at the Jewel House so badly. Is he wanting to have access to the jewels? To sell for income? I guess he was ambitious!
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