Wolf Hall TV series

[Gallifreyan7]

What an excellent idea for your English project. Did you only read Wolf Hall or did you also read the second book of the trilogy Bring Up the Bodies? The last book of the trilogy will come out the end of this year or the beginning of 2016. I need to get The Man for All Seasons on DVD because I think that is a movie I would watch more than once.
Thanks for the quote by St. Thomas More.
So More did not torture, but Cromwell did?

The final scene in the tv production of Wolf Hall where the king welcomes Cromwell with a smile and a hug and the look on Cromwell’s face says it all. Very haunting. That scene will stay with me for a long time.

Thanks! St Thomas was accused of torture, but strongly denied it. Cromwell, however, is accepted by historians to have used torture to extract confessions. I haven’t read BUTB yet, but it’s on my to do list.

I though the last scene was brilliant too. It gave me chills.

 

[GEddie]

I don’t think the miniseries was anti Catholic, really almost the reverse.

Catholics are shown as mown down by a system that has no more use for them, but hold to their principles in spite of everything. Meanwhile, those who take over from the Church are shown for what they are.

STM for example, faces his death with courage and dignity, whatever his past might have been (and despite H8’s doing everything to shame him – having someone play a flute at his beheading, can you imagine??).

By contrast, Anne Boleyn is allowed as much dignity as is possible in a death by beheading, yet is subjected to whispered comments about being “handled by men.”

Really, WH depicts the period for what it is.

I’ll read Bring Up The Bodies when I get the chance.

ICXC NIKA

 

[7_Sorrows]

I don’t think the miniseries was anti Catholic, really almost the reverse.

Catholics are shown as mown down by a system that has no more use for them, but hold to their principles in spite of everything. Meanwhile, those who take over from the Church are shown for what they are.

STM for example, faces his death with courage and dignity, whatever his past might have been (and despite H8’s doing everything to shame him – having someone play a flute at his beheading, can you imagine??).

By contrast, Anne Boleyn is allowed as much dignity as is possible in a death by beheading, yet is subjected to whispered comments about being “handled by men.”

Really, WH depicts the period for what it is.

I’ll read Bring Up The Bodies when I get the chance.

ICXC NIKA

I agree! Thank you for your post. Well said.

 

[schaeffer]

I didn’t feel like this show/book is anti Catholic.

More was shown as faithful unto death, even though he was urged to “just sign the paper” he held fast, and died with dignity…while Cromwell, repeatedly shows himself to do whatever it takes to get ahead and keep his head attached to his shoulders.

What’s more is that repeatedly in the book and series people say as much to Cromwell, and he never denies it. Never claims to be better than, more faithful than…etc. He is for himself to get ahead, and does just that.

His household knows it as well, when they fear the king has died, they are ready to pack up and get out of the country before the new regime kills them. It was a dirty game and Cromwell played it. Yes, he is human and has his good points and loves and gentle moments, but there is never any attempt made to downplay his dealings or ruthlessness.

Wolf Hall is not about Thomas More, so it’s not going to go out of it’s way to make a hero of him, but it did him justice in depicting him as a man who loved his king, his God, his family and died for what he believed in.

Wolf Hall IS about Thomas Cromwell, and shows a man who has beliefs but will compromise them when it suits another purpose.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I didn’t feel like this show/book is anti Catholic.

More was shown as faithful unto death, even though he was urged to “just sign the paper” he held fast, and died with dignity…while Cromwell, repeatedly shows himself to do whatever it takes to get ahead and keep his head attached to his shoulders.

What’s more is that repeatedly in the book and series people say as much to Cromwell, and he never denies it. Never claims to be better than, more faithful than…etc. He is for himself to get ahead, and does just that.

His household knows it as well, when they fear the king has died, they are ready to pack up and get out of the country before the new regime kills them. It was a dirty game and Cromwell played it. Yes, he is human and has his good points and loves and gentle moments, but there is never any attempt made to downplay his dealings or ruthlessness.

Wolf Hall is not about Thomas More, so it’s not going to go out of it’s way to make a hero of him, but it did him justice in depicting him as a man who loved his king, his God, his family and died for what he believed in.

Wolf Hall IS about Thomas Cromwell, and shows a man who has beliefs but will compromise them when it suits another purpose.

Very true! Good analysis.

Even though this show was only called Wolf Hall it was based on both Wolf Hall and Bring Up the Bodies I believe.
I am looking forward to the final book of the trilogy to be released this winter or next spring.

 

[Cailte]

I didn’t feel like this show/book is anti Catholic.

More was shown as faithful unto death, even though he was urged to “just sign the paper” he held fast, and died with dignity…while Cromwell, repeatedly shows himself to do whatever it takes to get ahead and keep his head attached to his shoulders.

.

I think you missed the point. The anti-Catholicism is written cleverly into the script which repeatedly claims that being Catholic and being English are not compatible. That is the theme that runs throughout. Just to give one example the scene where More is confronted by Cromwell and the other councilors to ‘just’ sign the oath of allegiance and go along with the Act of Supremacy, More refused. This was no small matter. Cromwell accuses him of ‘giving comfort to the enemies of England’ - and when More leaves the room Cromwell elaborates on this idea and states that More wants a ‘foreign’ agent, i.e. Rome to rule England. The message throughout the series is that Rome is corrupt and Papal ‘control’ must go in order for England to develop into a great nation. It’s the old Whig historic nonsense that justified anti-Catholic laws and Wolf Hall has it in abundance.

The depiction of More as being driven by his ego is also egregious - and while More does indeed hold on it’s not shown to be noble, just misguided, egotistical and most importantly against the interests of the English state. England is portrayed as about to become a great nation - a conquering nation - once Roman influence is removed. That’s where the ant-Catholicism comes in. This old historic lie that Catholics would not be full and faithful citizens [because they would always obey the Pope first] was carried over to future anti-Catholic laws where Catholics were even refused the right to vote and sit in the Westminster parliament until the 19th century. It also carried over to the New World where Catholics were treated as second class citizens for hundreds of years.

From a Catholic perspective I found the series to be disgusting frankly.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I think you missed the point. The anti-Catholicism is written cleverly into the script which repeatedly claims that being Catholic and being English are not compatible. That is the theme that runs throughout. Just to give one example the scene where More is confronted by Cromwell and the other councilors to ‘just’ sign the oath of allegiance and go along with the Act of Supremacy, More refused. This was no small matter. Cromwell accuses him of ‘giving comfort to the enemies of England’ - and when More leaves the room Cromwell elaborates on this idea and states that More wants a ‘foreign’ agent, i.e. Rome to rule England. The message throughout the series is that Rome is corrupt and Papal ‘control’ must go in order for England to develop into a great nation. It’s the old Whig historic nonsense that justified anti-Catholic laws and Wolf Hall has it in abundance.

The depiction of More as being driven by his ego is also egregious - and while More does indeed hold on it’s not shown to be noble, just misguided, egotistical and most importantly against the interests of the English state. England is portrayed as about to become a great nation - a conquering nation - once Roman influence is removed. That’s where the ant-Catholicism comes in. This old historic lie that Catholics would not be full and faithful citizens [because they would always obey the Pope first] was carried over to future anti-Catholic laws where Catholics were even refused the right to vote and sit in the Westminster parliament until the 19th century. It also carried over to the New World where Catholics were treated as second class citizens for hundreds of years.

From a Catholic perspective I found the series to be disgusting frankly.

But we cannot deny the Church was not corrupt leading up to the Reformation (not saying I agree with the Reformation). The Church was very powerful back then. It played a somewhat different role than it does today. And you had the 3 big empires of France, Spain and England - forunately, France and Spain remained Catholic - but Henry wanted England to be number one and countries were becoming nationalistic. That was history. It shows what was happening in England and Germany. You can’t compare to how they lived then to how we live in today’s world. It showed Cromwell pushing More to sign the paper because England was moving forward. Things were happening quickly and I think the Church, unfortunately, was caught offguard and failed to see what the corruption of selling indulgences,
and some of the personal lives of Popes, bishops and priests might bring. Yes, I wish the Reformation had never happened. I wish the monasteries and convents had not been destroyed and Catholic churches stripped of what made them Catholic. I wish England had remained Catholic and Henry had not started his own church. You can’t deny what was happening and the movement taking hold and how quickly things were changing. The dialogue showed why the changes took place. I am sure More was shocked at what was happening, but he defended the faith and showed what courage he had not to sign the oathe of allegiance.

 

[GEddie]

I think you missed the point. The anti-Catholicism is written cleverly into the script which repeatedly claims that being Catholic and being English are not compatible. That is the theme that runs throughout. Just to give one example the scene where More is confronted by Cromwell and the other councilors to ‘just’ sign the oath of allegiance and go along with the Act of Supremacy, More refused. This was no small matter. Cromwell accuses him of ‘giving comfort to the enemies of England’ - and when More leaves the room Cromwell elaborates on this idea and states that More wants a ‘foreign’ agent, i.e. Rome to rule England. The message throughout the series is that Rome is corrupt and Papal ‘control’ must go in order for England to develop into a great nation. It’s the old Whig historic nonsense that justified anti-Catholic laws and Wolf Hall has it in abundance.

The depiction of More as being driven by his ego is also egregious - and while More does indeed hold on it’s not shown to be noble, just misguided, egotistical and most importantly against the interests of the English state. England is portrayed as about to become a great nation - a conquering nation - once Roman influence is removed. That’s where the ant-Catholicism comes in. This old historic lie that Catholics would not be full and faithful citizens [because they would always obey the Pope first] was carried over to future anti-Catholic laws where Catholics were even refused the right to vote and sit in the Westminster parliament until the 19th century. It also carried over to the New World where Catholics were treated as second class citizens for hundreds of years.

From a Catholic perspective I found the series to be disgusting frankly.

I disagree. It shows the times for what they were.

It was an anti-Catholic period in England. There was fear of (geographically larger) neighboring Catholic powers and a desire to get out from under their shadows. (Which was probably why the discriminatory laws were not rescinded until 1829, when both France and Spain were in decline and, despite the North American setback, Britain was unstoppably on the rise).

In an age of playboy princes, “noble” is almost impossible to distinguish from egotism. I don’t fault the series for failing to do so.

It portrayed an ugly time in a viewable manner.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Cailte]

I disagree. It shows the times for what they were.

It was an anti-Catholic period in England. There was fear of (geographically larger) neighboring Catholic powers and a desire to get out from under their shadows. (Which was probably why the discriminatory laws were not rescinded until 1829, when both France and Spain were in decline and, despite the North American setback, Britain was unstoppably on the rise).

In an age of playboy princes, “noble” is almost impossible to distinguish from egotism. I don’t fault the series for failing to do so.

It portrayed an ugly time in a viewable manner.

ICXC NIKA

It was the fault of the series for using anti-Catholic, biased and invented sources for script - in fact for downright depicting the times incorrectly as has been pointed out by numerous historians. It was a period of change - but the vast majority of people wished to remain faithful to the Papacy. The Catholic Church played a honoured role in their lives. The church supported the poor and the sick. Henry had supported the church and wrote tracts against Luther. It was only because of the reign of terror by Henry - and his marriage problems- that the councilors and bishops caved in and signed the oath. The series is purposely historically incorrect. Wolf Hall has an agenda - to depict the Catholic Church in a bad light and to depict Catholics as bad citizens. More holds on - but he is ‘unEnglish’ for doing so. The myth is that the English Empire can/will only go forward if it is freed from the Papacy. That is the faux message and the faux history that is not new by any means. It’s the old Whig propaganda.

And if you read the English parliamentary records of the 18th and early 19th centuries you can see the prejudice against Catholics was simply that. The arguments given for why the anti-Catholic penal laws were held onto were not because of any foreign threat, but because Catholics were regarded as not worthy of citizenship. George III described Catholics as ‘human cockroaches’ and Wellington felt the same. He only caved when the real threat of civil unrest in Ireland became a reality. And then he disenfranchised thousands of Catholic voters in order to ‘allow’ Catholic representation in Westminster in 1829.

Anti-Catholicism amongst the English was still alive and well when the Irish Famine occurred in the 1840s. Parliamentary records show Trevelyan writing that it was the fault of the Irish for holding onto to Catholicism that brought the wrath of God onto them. And Westminster did little on this account to relieve the suffering.

 

[Cailte]

. It showed Cromwell pushing More to sign the paper because England was moving forward. Things were happening quickly and I think the Church, unfortunately, was caught offguard and failed to see what the corruption of selling indulgences,
.

The selling of indulgences had NOTHING to do with the English Reformation. Henry had actually written against Luther and defended the Church’s position. The English Catholic church was flourishing at the time of Henry’s marriage problems. Wolf Hall is historically incorrect in its depiction of it being otherwise.

Protestant propaganda has succeeded very well in the English speaking world of depicting the Catholic church as being vastly corrupt but historically this is not the case. Without Henry’s rule of terror England would have remained happily Catholic. Later propagandists set about slaying the reputation of Queen Mary as ‘Bloody Mary’ and Elizabeth as a sort of saint who through Protestantism sets England on the road to greatness. None of this is historically accurate either.

 

[7_Sorrows]

The selling of indulgences had NOTHING to do with the English Reformation. Henry had actually written against Luther and defended the Church’s position. The English Catholic church was flourishing at the time of Henry’s marriage problems. Wolf Hall is historically incorrect in its depiction of it being otherwise.

Protestant propaganda has succeeded very well in the English speaking world of depicting the Catholic church as being vastly corrupt but historically this is not the case. Without Henry’s rule of terror England would have remained happily Catholic. Later propagandists set about slaying the reputation of Queen Mary as ‘Bloody Mary’ and Elizabeth as a sort of saint who through Protestantism sets England on the road to greatness. None of this is historically accurate either.

Yes, I am aware that Henry was given the title of Defender of the Faith by the Pope. He was Catholic and married to a very Catholic queen from Catholic Spain.
I didn’t say the selling of indulgences pertained strictly to the English Reformation, but it was one of the reasons cited for why the Protestant Reformation came about in the first place.
I don’t know the exact date of when Henry asked the Pope to have his marriage to Catherine nullified. He did try to follow the proper procedure and was fairly patient. Queen Mary definitely has not been portrayed favorably historically like Elizabeth I, but Wolf Hall was all about the reign of Henry VIII.

 

[Cailte]

Yes, I am aware that Henry was given the title of Defender of the Faith by the Pope. He was Catholic and married to a very Catholic queen from Catholic Spain.
I didn’t say the selling of indulgences pertained strictly to the English Reformation, but it was one of the reasons cited for why the Protestant Reformation came about in the first place.
I don’t know the exact date of when Henry asked the Pope to have his marriage to Catherine nullified. He did try to follow the proper procedure and was fairly patient. Queen Mary definitely has not been portrayed favorably historically like Elizabeth I, but Wolf Hall was all about the reign of Henry VIII.

English Reformation history has been biased and propagandized for a long time. It began quite soon after the break with Rome in order to justify the break and justify future persecution of Catholics by the English parliament and monarchy. John Foxe’s invented ‘history’ became reality for those wishing to demonize the Papacy and Catholicism.

Here is Eamon Duffy on some of the ‘myths’ that got created in order to achieve the goal of defaming Catholics and banishing them from all levels of power and influence. Wolf Hall in every episode reflects this ‘myth’ of ‘greater’ Englisheness emerging after the destruction of Catholic influence.

At the height of the hysteria, Protestant mythology achieved definitive form in a book that would shape the writing of Tudor history down to our own day. In 1679 Gilbert Burnet, a Scottish cleric, published the first volume of a massive History of the Reformation, an anti-Catholic narrative given scholarly credibility by the inclusion of dozens of documents gathered from public and private archives. Burnet would be the chief propagandist for the “Glorious Revolution” which deposed James II and set the Protestant William of Orange on the throne. His history rammed home the message that Catholicism and Englishness were utterly incompatible: Catholicism was tyranny, Protestantism liberation. “They hate us,” he wrote, “because we dare to be freemen and Protestants.”

It was a message the nation [England] wanted to hear: Burnet was thanked by a special vote of Parliament. His work was supplemented by John Strype, another ardent “Orange” cleric, in a stream of biographies and collections of Reformation documents, many of them gathered from Foxe’s archives. Till well into the 20th century, historians of the English Reformation would rely on Burnet and Strype for their source materials, in the process perpetuating their late-Stuart take on the Tudor age.

Historians no longer take that venerable Protestant version for granted, but it is still alive and well in the wider culture.

Wolf Hall is damaging to truth and bad history because it perpetuates this old ‘myth’ of Catholic tyranny and Protestant liberation.

 

[7_Sorrows]

English Reformation history has been biased and propagandized for a long time. It began quite soon after the break with Rome in order to justify the break and justify future persecution of Catholics by the English parliament and monarchy. John Foxe’s invented ‘history’ became reality for those wishing to demonize the Papacy and Catholicism.

Here is Eamon Duffy on some of the ‘myths’ that got created in order to achieve the goal of defaming Catholics and banishing them from all levels of power and influence. Wolf Hall in every episode reflects this ‘myth’ of ‘greater’ Englisheness emerging after the destruction of Catholic influence.

Wolf Hall is damaging to truth and bad history because it perpetuates this old ‘myth’ of Catholic tyranny and Protestant liberation.

Many people would not see that as a myth.
England was a great empire and the English language has been very important in the world the last 500 years. Times were changing and countries were becoming nationalistic. The printing press had been invented. Next would come the age of enlightenment. Even if Henry had been granted an annullment to his marriage and remained Catholic. That does not mean England would have been unaffected by the Protestant Reformation. England had great influence and it would continue through its language, literature and government. Rome was losing its influence.

 

[Cailte]

Many people would not see that as a myth.
England was a great empire and the English language has been very important in the world the last 500 years. Times were changing and countries were becoming nationalistic. The printing press had been invented. Next would come the age of enlightenment. Even if Henry had been granted an annullment to his marriage and remained Catholic. That does not mean England would have been unaffected by the Protestant Reformation. England had great influence and it would continue through its language, literature and government. Rome was losing its influence.

I am not concerned with what ‘many people’ might say, or hearsay and speculation. I am pointing out the historic record to you and what respected historians are saying about the myths that were deliberately created and why. Your mind seems to be made up without addressing any of what this actual record shows or dealing with what is actually validly documented. Never mind wild speculation of what might have been or ‘what if’ history.

Wolf Hall reflects an inaccurate historic record. And Hilary Mantel has been called out on this many times by historians who know what the actual record actually is - and what propaganda is. There is no dispute amongst academically informed historians about what the series is. It’s rubbish history with an obvious bias. Fiction is the word used even by its defenders But if some have an emotional attachment to its ‘charm’ then no amount of historic proofs can change that. And I have no interest in going down that road.

I must add that I find it amazing that on a Catholic forum that the anti-Catholicism in this series that is so apparent to many historians who work in this field, Catholic and otherwise - including Catholic Bishops who raised serious objections - is getting defended here and fobbed off as well ‘England was a great Empire’. Read up on the English atrocities around the world. The bias, the racism, the violence that they spread in this ‘great’ empire. in order to maintain control and economic superiority over those they ‘conquered’. The anti-Catholicism that was a by-product of all this was real and is still there today in their news media. The BBC has been called out a number of times over this especially in the past few decades.

Wolf Hall is not history. That is a fact not even disputed by its defenders. What damage its biased fiction might be doing is the issue.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I am not concerned with what ‘many people’ might say, or hearsay and speculation. I am pointing out the historic record to you and what respected historians are saying about the myths that were deliberately created and why. Your mind seems to be made up without addressing any of what this actual record shows or dealing with what is actually validly documented. Never mind wild speculation of what might have been or ‘what if’ history.

Wolf Hall reflects an inaccurate historic record. And Hilary Mantel has been called out on this many times by historians who know what the actual record actually is - and what propaganda is. There is no dispute amongst academically informed historians about what the series is. It’s rubbish history with an obvious bias. Fiction is the word used even by its defenders But if some have an emotional attachment to its ‘charm’ then no amount of historic proofs can change that. And I have no interest in going down that road.

I must add that I find it amazing that on a Catholic forum that the anti-Catholicism in this series that is so apparent to many historians who work in this field, Catholic and otherwise - including Catholic Bishops who raised serious objections - is getting defended here and fobbed off as well ‘England was a great Empire’. Read up on the English atrocities around the world. The bias, the racism, the violence that they spread in this ‘great’ empire. in order to maintain control and economic superiority over those they ‘conquered’. The anti-Catholicism that was a by-product of all this was real and is still there today in their news media. The BBC has been called out a number of times over this especially in the past few decades.

Wolf Hall is not history. That is a fact not even disputed by its defenders. What damage its biased fiction might be doing is the issue.

I don’t think anyone ever said Wolf Hall is history. It is a work of fiction with historical characters.
You seem to really have a grudge against the English or the British Empire. We can’t change history nor should we judge them by the standards we live by today.
The people who are criticising the author should all get together and write a book that tells the true story of what happened is what I think.

 

[Cailte]

You seem to really have a grudge against the English or the British Empire. We can’t change history nor should we judge them by the standards we live by today.
The people who are criticising the author should all get together and write a book that tells the true story of what happened is what I think.

Now you are getting personal and I object to that. Also sarcastic. ‘A book’ and ‘getting together’ is not the issue here - there have been many, many, articles expressed about this bad history by trained historians .You ought to read them - apparently you haven’t.

My posts have been on target and with informed references. I have tried to give you informed context as expressed by respected historians but you just get angry at this and now are personally attacking my intent as a ‘grudge’. I suppose all else has failed you.

I might add that you seem to be an ardent anglophile and getting angry at my posts on that account. I’m done discussing this with you.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Now you are getting personal and I object to that. Also sarcastic. ‘A book’ and ‘getting together’ is not the issue here - there have been many, many, articles expressed about this bad history by trained historians .You ought to read them - apparently you haven’t.

My posts have been on target and with informed references. I have tried to give you informed context as expressed by respected historians but you just get angry at this and now are personally attacking my intent as a ‘grudge’. I suppose all else has failed you.

I might add that you seem to be an ardent anglophile and getting angry at my posts on that account. I’m done discussing this with you.

I am not getting personal. Just from what I have gathered from your posts you seem to be angry because someone has a different opinion than you do. I am just giving my opinions and this is a forum. I am not angry with you that you do not agree with what I have to say.
I have read every post you have written, but I just don’t find it anything to get upset about. Hope you have a good rest of your day!

 

[Cailte]

I am not getting personal. Just from what I have gathered from your posts you seem to be angry because someone has a different opinion than you do. I am just giving my opinions and this is a forum. I am not angry with you that you do not agree with what I have to say.
I have read every post you have written, but I just don’t find it anything to get upset about. Hope you have a good rest of your day!

Please don’t try to dismiss me in such a manner and then make a further personal attack on me charging me with reacting only ‘because someone has a different opinion than you’ and end with a smiley face?? Talk about passive aggressive.

It was your anger that raised its head. I have read all your posts too and you do seem to have strong opinions when it comes to certain topics. And this TV series is certainly one of them.

From your posts it seems that you have a certain admiration and emotional attachment to the ‘charm’ and not to very much else. At least not much else got expressed. I thought that I could contribute something of value here [for many reasons] but you were not interested in being open to the actual historic record of propaganda and anti-Catholicism and the very valid objections raised even by informed Catholic Bishops on both sides of the Atlantic.

I hope you too have a very pleasant day.

 

[goneiri]

Just from what I have gathered from your posts you seem to be angry because someone has a different opinion than you do.

Well that was a bit unfair wasn’t it?

And you did seem IMO to become a cheerleader for the series. Just saying.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Well that was a bit unfair wasn’t it?

And you did seem IMO to become a cheerleader for the series. Just saying.

And?