Woman as property

[Burdensome1]

You guys gave me a lot to think about. Im going to do some research. I don’t know what i believe. As a child i grew up in a really bitter catholic church who taught me i was essentially worthless as a female and everything i did was a sin.

So, I’m guessing you grew up in Poland in the 1930’s? Otherwise, I’m sort of at a loss, since it would be pretty darn difficult, like to the point of near impossibililty, to find that sort of theology being preached form the pulpit in a diocesan Church in the USA in the last 40 or 50 years.

Oh well, stranger things have happened.

 

[Mm64]

Okay. Seriously. I wish you guys would be a little nicer. I grew up in California, i was born in 1990. I was told a lot of awful things that i just couldn’t live with.

 

[Burdensome1]

I don’t believe you. California? Give me a break.

Like any priest in any diocese would be teaching hateful stuff about women in California in the last 20 years.

How stupid do you think we are?

 

[Mm64]

Fine don’t believe me u__u; It is very difficult to understand this world. That is all.

 

[Burdensome1]

It’s too bad you have to make stuff up.

It’s like the non-Catholic comedians who still make jokes about being taught by nuns in parochial schools. Thing of the past.

 

[Allegra]

Fine don’t believe me u__u; It is very difficult to understand this world. That is all.

You ask how to understand teachings that don’t exist. The Catholic Church has never taught that women were property. The quotes you posted are out of context and remember, Catholics do not take one sentenece from the Bible and try to interpret it. We look at scripture through a lense of thousands of years of tradition. Thats why other posters have recommended that you look for answers in the Catechism, rather than trying to interpret the Bible yourself. It is very difficult to believe that you were taught this stuff in a Catholic Church. Are you sure that these teachings weren’t the fabrication of your parents or family members? I was given a very negative view of the Church during my childhood, though it was not taught to me by the Church, but by members of the Church in my family who were poorly catechized. (or just didn’t care.)

 

[Allegra]

It’s too bad you have to make stuff up.

It’s like the non-Catholic comedians who still make jokes about being taught by nuns in parochial schools. Thing of the past.

It is highly possible that it isn’t the OP who made stuff up. She could be repeating stuff she heard from others. You are right though. If half the people I’ve heard claim they were beaten by nuns in our parish school actually were, those two senior ladies would have died of exhaustion years ago!

 

[Burdensome1]

It is highly possible that it isn’t the OP who made stuff up

Yep, that’s why I posted:

Like any priest in any diocese would be teaching hateful stuff about women in California in the last 20 years.

If half the people I’ve heard claim they were beaten by nuns in our parish school actually were, those two senior ladies would have died of exhaustion years ago!

HA! It’s the same here!

 

[XRU]

Okay. Seriously. I wish you guys would be a little nicer. I grew up in California, i was born in 1990. I was told a lot of awful things that i just couldn’t live with.

Well Mm64 . . . if you really want to learn you will have to show your good faith but taking some **** from this bunch 'cause they see trolls coming in here all the time asking really fake questions and wasting their time.

Keep asking questions in good faith and you will learn something. Like ask why you shouldn’t look to the Old Testament to guide your life.

It’s just this bunch find it hard to believe that anyone could be half as ignorant as some of the Trolls that come here to give the Church ****.

Sorry about the ****. Didn’t know it was a forbidden word.

 

[robwar]

Also. Yes it is a misogynistic world, its almost enough to kill me you know. My husband keeps me from going over the edge with these things. As a man who loves me unconditionally and takes care of me just as much as i take care of him. A marriage is a partnership, not submission. I know it has been a division of property for the longest time. Ah i am depressing myself, this world is hard to live in. I wish i was born with no sex as an undecernable XXY

I think that you need to reread the OT. there are women mentioned in major roles. Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Ruth, Naomi, Deborah ruled during the Judges time. Rahab etc.
In the OT, one man had 7 daughters who upon request were able to inherit their father’s land to keep it in the family per Moses. I think you just want to focus on a few things which are taken out of context and the culture of the time. Jesus spoke to women, lets them touch him, and had them as followers. Women had rights under the Torah. Now you contrast all of this with Islam and the Koran where women are just sex objects and property of men. Men can beat their wives and have no voice.

 

[lerapt78]

Also. Yes it is a misogynistic world, its almost enough to kill me you know. My husband keeps me from going over the edge with these things. As a man who loves me unconditionally and takes care of me just as much as i take care of him. A marriage is a partnership, not submission. I know it has been a division of property for the longest time. Ah i am depressing myself, this world is hard to live in. I wish i was born with no sex as an undecernable XXY

Mm64, pardon me for saying so, but. . . . . this seems a bit dramatic, no? uch: I can’t speak for the world, because I haven’t experienced every single culture and religion in existence; but to say as a 22 year-old American woman that you are surrounded by misogyny to such a point that it gets you depressed really concerns me and makes me question the type of environment you live in. Because that certainly has not been my experience, on average, nor would I say this is the experience of most women today:shrug:

I’m curious as to why you would hold up verses of scripture (*Old *Testament scripture, none the less), which addressed a certain people at a certain point in time regarding certain circumstances, as some sort of evidence of a generalized and deeply held hatred of women? As another poster pointed out, if you were to scroll through some of the scriptural commandments and advice given to men, I’m sure you would realize that they too were often held to uphold certain behaviors that many modern men today would balk at. Then again, you could look at *any *document from *any *ancient time and find something unappealing to modern sensibilities.

I guess I’m just not understanding what you’re afraid of.

Some of the coolest people I met happened to be nuns. Their love for God made me look at them as “rockstars” and they helped energize my faith.

 

[bri89]

Also. Yes it is a misogynistic world, its almost enough to kill me you know. My husband keeps me from going over the edge with these things. As a man who loves me unconditionally and takes care of me just as much as i take care of him. A marriage is a partnership, not submission. I know it has been a division of property for the longest time. Ah i am depressing myself, this world is hard to live in. I wish i was born with no sex as an undecernable XXY

I think I understand. Theologically and non-theologically, It does seem like women are secondary, an appendage of man, and an afterthought of God. It seems she was made as a helpmate to cure man’s loneliness and not a thing in and of herself. Man defined woman, and most women don’t feel like worthy human beings unless a man loves them. I’ve always suspected that aside from love and sex man has no interest in woman, her intellectual qualities and character, and so I worry what I’ll be worth once my youthful appeal is gone. Youth and beauty are what make women relevant to men and society in general; that’s pretty obvious, no? Older women are treated as invisible. I most definitely would not want to be a man though. I instinctively regard women as superior, but it is depressing as you say.

 

[Truthstalker]

Hmmmm. Let me say a few things here.

I have a hard time seeing it as misogyny when the Israelites were told to kill all men but spare some of the women. Seems to me that is harder on the lads than the lasses, and can hardly be called misogyny.

Early on in Genesis God created man in His image, “male and female created He them.” Man and woman both reflect parts of God in different ways. To downgrade either, or to value one over the other, is a way of disrespecting God’s image. Both are valuable.

Women were last at the cross and first at the tomb, the first to see the Risen Savior. They believed, and they made the men look pretty bad in regards to faithfulness to Christ. The boys fled, the women watched.

There was a group of women who funded Christ’s ministry. That meant they had money and the discretion to use it. If they had not done that, no one could have taken the time off to be with Jesus.

We see a business woman in Proverbs 31, with the power to consider the value of land and purchase it, and we see Lydia a seller of purple in the book of Acts. We see courageous female judges and godly mothers who raised godly kings.

Paul said somewhere that in Christ there is neither male nor female. There is no preferential treatment, only some innate differences. I reject egalitarianism and will until I see men giving birth as much as women do. We are different, and we hurt each other when we try to make each other conform to each other’s roles.

I would take the Biblical, Christian model of womanhood any day over today’s culture, where girls are sexualized from preadolescence on up, female fetuses suffer from sex selective abortions worldwide, and no one really has any innate dignity. It is not the Church that has stripped women of dignity and honor. It is a secular culture that is out to debase everyone, regardless of gender.

 

[PRmerger]

Hmmmm. Let me say a few things here.

I have a hard time seeing it as misogyny when the Israelites were told to kill all men but spare some of the women. Seems to me that is harder on the lads than the lasses, and can hardly be called misogyny.

Early on in Genesis God created man in His image, “male and female created He them.” Man and woman both reflect parts of God in different ways. To downgrade either, or to value one over the other, is a way of disrespecting God’s image. Both are valuable.

Women were last at the cross and first at the tomb, the first to see the Risen Savior. They believed, and they made the men look pretty bad in regards to faithfulness to Christ. The boys fled, the women watched.

There was a group of women who funded Christ’s ministry. That meant they had money and the discretion to use it. If they had not done that, no one could have taken the time off to be with Jesus.

We see a business woman in Proverbs 31, with the power to consider the value of land and purchase it, and we see Lydia a seller of purple in the book of Acts. We see courageous female judges and godly mothers who raised godly kings.

Paul said somewhere that in Christ there is neither male nor female. There is no preferential treatment, only some innate differences. I reject egalitarianism and will until I see men giving birth as much as women do. We are different, and we hurt each other when we try to make each other conform to each other’s roles.

I would take the Biblical, Christian model of womanhood any day over today’s culture, where girls are sexualized from preadolescence on up, female fetuses suffer from sex selective abortions worldwide, and no one really has any innate dignity. It is not the Church that has stripped women of dignity and honor. It is a secular culture that is out to debase everyone, regardless of gender.

And, I would add: the greatest Christian to ever live was…

wait for it…

wait for it…

a woman.

A woman named Mary.

 

[PRmerger]

I wonder if that is why women were left out of being ordained back then…because it was “cultural phenomenon” to not give women any important roles.

No. Women were never ordained (and I am happy to see a non-Catholic acknowledge this fact! Typically we will hear the argument that there were indeed Catholic women priests but the later misogynistic church covered this up) because…

women can’t be fathers. Nuh-uh. No way. Can’t be done. :nope:

 

[Truthstalker]

You guys gave me a lot to think about. Im going to do some research. I don’t know what i believe. As a child i grew up in a really bitter catholic church who taught me i was essentially worthless as a female and everything i did was a sin. The only freedom i got was from renouncing everything. I’m just trying to find some answers right now and reconsider my beliefs.

I really think that’s great. I am always discovering things I already knew as if for the first time. Look! The sun! Amazing! God! Wow! I’m a girl! Wow! God loves me! Wow! Pancakes! Wow!

Drives my husband absolutely up the wall. I discovered it does. Wow!

 

[Truthstalker]

Do some people argue that the reason women were treated badly back then–as expressed in the canon writings you quote-- was because it was the “cultural phenomenon” of the times?

I wonder if that is why women were left out of being ordained back then…because it was “cultural phenomenon” to not give women any important roles.

I read this and realized you are really begging the question. Who determines what “an important role” is? I think you are falling into a trap. Something is important why? Because men do it, and because they won’t let women do it? So it is only important and meaningful if it is something men are doing, and women aren’t? So anything women are doing is intrinsically unimportant? So little things like giving birth and comforting the sick and raising children and basically living life and instilling character and hope are meaningless? I don’t think so. That is as negative a depiction of the importance of women as I have seen, yet it seems to be fairly common.

God is the one who defines what is important. Things like visiting the sick and giving water to the thirsty, healing the sick and comforting those who mourn. Usually in the Bible the kings are in trouble, big trouble with God, and so are women like Jezebel who try to take power like a man does when he is misusing it.

We cannot define what is important in a human way, and we need to be careful of listening to those who insist that importance equals political power.

 

[Truthstalker]

I smellz a troll in our midst.

I don’t think she is a troll. I think she is sincere and we should treat her with love, courtesy and dignity.

 

[anthrogirl]

I am sure you guys are all familiar with the questions about the bible regarding woman being treated as property. That is all fine and good, I am aware of the many arguments “it was a cultural phenomenon” and such or that “god corrected mankind’s faults slowly”. But really, saying is a cultural phenomena, do you think such cultures will arise again? If so, I am not really sure i want to be involved in Christianity any longer.

It doesn’t seem like god is love, it seems more like god wants woman to be property if you read the bible through.
Thoughts?

There is no chance that our church today will return to the times of the OT where women were treated as property. Now that I’ve said that, I have to also say that there are Catholic women living in countries where women are treated that way. It’s not the church; it’s the societies in which women live. The UN keeps great stats on women throughout the world.

The sad part is that we hear so much about the abuse of women, we become numb. It’s too much we have to tune it out and pretend it’s not there. I think NCR just ran an article on that. Anyway… here are some scary stats. 33% of all women worldwide have been victims of violent attacks with some countries reaching as high as 70%. Between 100 and 140 million girls in the world today are victims of genital mutilation. More than a half a million girls and women are trafficked across borders each year. Most are sexually exploited. First sexual encounters were forced for 30% of women. About 50% of all rapes are committed against girls under the age of 16.

There’s a lot of work to be done, no doubt. But I wouldn’t worry about the Catholic Church. While many women in the church today wish for women to take on greater leaderhip roles within the church, those concerns pale in comparison to the horrible abuses women face every day all over the world. We have many sisters in our ranks whose mission it is to help and empower victims of abuse. It would be nice though if our Church did more to call out the atrocties against women, especially since many of these victims are Catholics. The vatican giving it front page status for a while would be very helpful to the cause.

 

[Truthstalker]

And, I would add: the greatest Christian to ever live was…

wait for it…

wait for it…

a woman.

A woman named Mary.

Yes, indeed.

The Catholic Church’s respect for the Virgin Mary, as well as doctrines, feasts, etc., concerning her, hardly indicate ANYTHING in the way of misogyny. It would rather exclude misogyny.