Woman as property

[PRmerger]

Yes, indeed.

The Catholic Church’s respect for the Virgin Mary, as well as doctrines, feasts, etc., concerning her, hardly indicate ANYTHING in the way of misogyny. It would rather exclude misogyny.

Indeed.

And one must understand the Church’s teachings on Mary, which absolutely highlight the dignity of all women, serve primarily to magnify the Lord.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I am sure you guys are all familiar with the questions about the bible regarding woman being treated as property. That is all fine and good, I am aware of the many arguments “it was a cultural phenomenon” and such or that “god corrected mankind’s faults slowly”. But really, saying is a cultural phenomena, do you think such cultures will arise again? If so, I am not really sure i want to be involved in Christianity any longer.

It doesn’t seem like god is love, it seems more like god wants woman to be property if you read the bible through.
Thoughts?

If a woman were considered property then there wouldn’t be a commandment to covet thy neighbour’s wife in addition to his property.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

I really think that’s great. I am always discovering things I already knew as if for the first time. Look! The sun! Amazing! God! Wow! I’m a girl! Wow! God loves me! Wow! Pancakes! Wow!

Drives my husband absolutely up the wall. I discovered it does. Wow!

Don’t drive him to far up the wall, past the façade of strength men are actually quite fragile emotionally.

There is no chance that our church today will return to the times of the OT where women were treated as property. Now that I’ve said that, I have to also say that there are Catholic women living in countries where women are treated that way. It’s not the church; it’s the societies in which women live. The UN keeps great stats on women throughout the world.

The sad part is that we hear so much about the abuse of women, we become numb. It’s too much we have to tune it out and pretend it’s not there. I think NCR just ran an article on that. Anyway… here are some scary stats. 33% of all women worldwide have been victims of violent attacks with some countries reaching as high as 70%. Between 100 and 140 million girls in the world today are victims of genital mutilation. More than a half a million girls and women are trafficked across borders each year. Most are sexually exploited. First sexual encounters were forced for 30% of women. About 50% of all rapes are committed against girls under the age of 16.

There’s a lot of work to be done, no doubt. But I wouldn’t worry about the Catholic Church. While many women in the church today wish for women to take on greater leaderhip roles within the church, those concerns pale in comparison to the horrible abuses women face every day all over the world. We have many sisters in our ranks whose mission it is to help and empower victims of abuse. It would be nice though if our Church did more to call out the atrocties against women, especially since many of these victims are Catholics. The vatican giving it front page status for a while would be very helpful to the cause.

Males don’t exactly have a terribly easy life either: 1/6 of males are sexually assaulted/ raped by the time they are 16; women are just as violent towards significant others as men are; men who are victimised especially by a female are not allowed to talk about or they get victimised by society and degraded.

 

[Qwestions]

Hi, Mm64. Attempting to figure out what information you seek is frustrating. Although cultures and religious beliefs–or lack of them–are closely intertwined, cultures are condoned by governments that are in place in particular locales. Religions influence the thinking and behavior of individuals, but government systems permit or limit the ways in which people treat others in their societies.

I can’t imagine a Catholic Church like the one you experienced, especially one with an emphasis on Bible quotes that you’ve mentioned (that part really sounds more Protestant than Catholic). However, tyrants tend to thrive unless someone has the guts to limit their influence, and, sadly, that doesn’t always happen. Since it clearly is not representative of what we posters recognize as being legitimately Catholic, and since you are “trying to find some answers right now and reconsider my beliefs,” and are concerned about the value placed upon women by the Church, I ask that you suspend these negative experiences and start evaluating the Church anew by taking action:

1. Talk to one or more priests at different Catholic Churches to find one with whom you feel comfortable in discussing your concerns from time to time as you learn more about what our faith actually means–not what you’ve heard to date, since those understandings are so far off-base.
2. Study the catechism. You can find one to study online or purchase a print copy.
3. Attend RCIA classes to learn more about the Catholic faith.
4. Seek other reading material suggestions from CAF posters and a priest.
5. Use the CAF search feature to find threads that pertain to questions that concern you, keeping in mind that you get a cross-section of answers from different faiths, not just Catholic answers, and that the answers are not official, but the viewpoints of the posters, which are sometimes not in sync with what the Church actually teaches, However, even in such cases, you’ll learn from the ensuing discussions, and can ask a priest for further clarification.
6. Pray. Just pray (maybe I should have listed prayer as #1), and trust in Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Ask Him to help you sort out your beliefs. Talk to Him throughout each day. The more you learn, the more you’ll realize you’ll never totally stop learning! Faith is an ongoing process, throughout your lifetime, but it’s the glue that will hold you together and the roadmap for your life’s journey!

I’m very sorry that you’ve had such a kinky experience with anyone connected with the Catholic Church. Regardless of what you may have been told, the Church does place value upon your worth as a woman. Please find it in your heart to forgive those poorly informed people who told you otherwise. I’m sorry for your anguish.

Your husband sounds as though he’s a steadying balance for you; treasure him! Many blessings to you on your quest for truth and faith.

 

[LightBound]

Hi, Mm64. Attempting to figure out what information you seek is frustrating. Although cultures and religious beliefs–or lack of them–are closely intertwined, cultures are condoned by governments that are in place in particular locales. Religions influence the thinking and behavior of individuals, but government systems permit or limit the ways in which people treat others in their societies.

I can’t imagine a Catholic Church like the one you experienced, especially one with an emphasis on Bible quotes that you’ve mentioned (that part really sounds more Protestant than Catholic). However, tyrants tend to thrive unless someone has the guts to limit their influence, and, sadly, that doesn’t always happen. Since it clearly is not representative of what we posters recognize as being legitimately Catholic, and since you are “trying to find some answers right now and reconsider my beliefs,” and are concerned about the value placed upon women by the Church, I ask that you suspend these negative experiences and start evaluating the Church anew by taking action:

1. Talk to one or more priests at different Catholic Churches to find one with whom you feel comfortable in discussing your concerns from time to time as you learn more about what our faith actually means–not what you’ve heard to date, since those understandings are so far off-base.
2. Study the catechism. You can find one to study online or purchase a print copy.
3. Attend RCIA classes to learn more about the Catholic faith.
4. Seek other reading material suggestions from CAF posters and a priest.
5. Use the CAF search feature to find threads that pertain to questions that concern you, keeping in mind that you get a cross-section of answers from different faiths, not just Catholic answers, and that the answers are not official, but the viewpoints of the posters, which are sometimes not in sync with what the Church actually teaches, However, even in such cases, you’ll learn from the ensuing discussions, and can ask a priest for further clarification.
6. Pray. Just pray (maybe I should have listed prayer as #1), and trust in Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Ask Him to help you sort out your beliefs. Talk to Him throughout each day. The more you learn, the more you’ll realize you’ll never totally stop learning! Faith is an ongoing process, throughout your lifetime, but it’s the glue that will hold you together and the roadmap for your life’s journey!

I’m very sorry that you’ve had such a kinky experience with anyone connected with the Catholic Church. Regardless of what you may have been told, the Church does place value upon your worth as a woman. Please find it in your heart to forgive those poorly informed people who told you otherwise. I’m sorry for your anguish.

Your husband sounds as though he’s a steadying balance for you; treasure him! Many blessings to you on your quest for truth and faith.

The Catholic Church she heard these things in sounds more like one that is in schism or with an “irregular” status in the Church (not in full communion) rather than your local diocesan parish. Consider what the majority of these radical Traditionalist churches teach and it’s no wonder she feels this way.

 

[Sarcelle]

I am honestly not trying to troll, i just having a hard time coming back to Christianity, i am just trying to get some help. I am sorry if i have harmed anyone.

I believe you. I once was an atheist and I also had a hard time coming to Christianity. What brought me back was the idea that my worth as a human being is rooted in God. No creature, human or angelic can ever take that away from me. Likewise with you. People who think they can see their own fellow humans as property are deluded.

I read that you grew up in a church that taught you that women were worthless. Was it preached from the pulpit or was it more of the fellow parishioners?

 

[Sarcelle]

It is highly possible that it isn’t the OP who made stuff up. She could be repeating stuff she heard from others. You are right though. If half the people I’ve heard claim they were beaten by nuns in our parish school actually were, those two senior ladies would have died of exhaustion years ago!

I don’t think she did. You don’t have to look far to see examples of people who think of women basically as wombs on legs. Some of them are here in this forum.

Now are these people in line with the teaching of the Catholic church? I don’t think so. This does not stop them from thinking the way they do, just like Catholics who contracept.

 

[Sarcelle]

I am sure you guys are all familiar with the questions about the bible regarding woman being treated as property. That is all fine and good, I am aware of the many arguments “it was a cultural phenomenon” and such or that “god corrected mankind’s faults slowly”. But really, saying is a cultural phenomena, do you think such cultures will arise again? If so, I am not really sure i want to be involved in Christianity any longer.

It doesn’t seem like god is love, it seems more like god wants woman to be property if you read the bible through.
Thoughts?

These cultures that regard women as property are still here. Look at China and India and their missing female population.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t think she did. You don’t have to look far to see examples of people who think of women basically as wombs on legs. Some of them are here in this forum.

Now are these people in line with the teaching of the Catholic church? I don’t think so. This does not stop them from thinking the way they do, just like Catholics who contracept.

Right, exactly. When God created Eve, He did not say to Adam, “Here - a punching bag.” No. He said, “I have given you a helper.”

She was created to be the mother of all the living, and to be a helper for Adam in caring for the whole world.

After the Fall, both men and women became broken. Human beings of every race and either sex continue to be treated like property - it’s not right and it’s not fair. It’s not what God intended for us, but it is what we chose for ourselves, against His explicit commandments.

 

[Truthstalker]

Mm64,

Are you still here?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I am sure you guys are all familiar with the questions about the bible regarding woman being treated as property. That is all fine and good, I am aware of the many arguments “it was a cultural phenomenon” and such or that “god corrected mankind’s faults slowly”. But really, saying is a cultural phenomena, do you think such cultures will arise again? If so, I am not really sure i want to be involved in Christianity any longer.

It doesn’t seem like god is love, it seems more like god wants woman to be property if you read the bible through.
Thoughts?

Have you seen how people treat their dogs, cats, cars, houses, home theater systems, etc. today? How much money they spent on those? I can’t see why anyone wouldn’t want to be treated as someone’s proeprty today given we spend so much on non-people.

 

[Holly3278]

I don’t see how anyone could consider Christianity as being misogynistic when Catholicism, which is original Christianity, has Mary, the Mother of God, in such a high place. Also, there is Saint Mary Magdalene who was the first to witness the resurrection of Jesus and there are tons of other female saints as well.

 

[Sarcelle]

I don’t see how anyone could consider Christianity as being misogynistic when Catholicism, which is original Christianity, has Mary, the Mother of God, in such a high place. Also, there is Saint Mary Magdalene who was the first to witness the resurrection of Jesus and there are tons of other female saints as well.

There are some Christian denominations that do consider women to have the status of minors. A woman must always have an authority in which to defer to, much like children had parents or guardians. You can search the web using the terms “Christian Reconstructionism” or “Dominionism”. I do not think however that they consider women as property.

 

[Truthstalker]

There are some Christian denominations that do consider women to have the status of minors. A woman must always have an authority in which to defer to, much like children had parents or guardians. You can search the web using the terms “Christian Reconstructionism” or “Dominionism”. I do not think however that they consider women as property.

I’ve run into a few men who insist a woman must always have a covering, meaning husband or father or someone, over her.

For women to be considered property, wouldn’t there have to be a market and taxes? I don’t see churches buying, trading and selling women. My husband did not get a tax bill for me this year, lower than last year’s because I am older and therefore depreciated in value.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’ve run into a few men who insist a woman must always have a covering, meaning husband or father or someone, over her.

For women to be considered property, wouldn’t there have to be a market and taxes? I don’t see churches buying, trading and selling women. My husband did not get a tax bill for me this year, lower than last year’s because I am older and therefore depreciated in value.

I suggest to the OP and to anyone who’s interested the apostolic letter of the Blessed Pope John Paul II Mulieris dignitatem. It states the following

The woman cannot become the “object” of “domination” and male “possession”.

 

[Sarcelle]

I’ve run into a few men who insist a woman must always have a covering, meaning husband or father or someone, over her.

For women to be considered property, wouldn’t there have to be a market and taxes? I don’t see churches buying, trading and selling women. My husband did not get a tax bill for me this year, lower than last year’s because I am older and therefore depreciated in value.

There is the sexual trafficking of women and children and I haven’t seen any Christian denomination come out in approval of this abomination.

 

[Interestingg]

Funny back then women were demanded to be respected. Now women are treated as sex objects, who if they get knocked-up the guy doesn’t have to marry her and she’s stuck with the kid…but I guess it’s all perception.

Christianity is a patriarchal religion… and no, women weren’t treated very grand back then. (They couldn’t even VOTE in the US until the 20’s! Less than 100 years ago. They were more or less forced to be housewives until the 50’s and 60’s.)

And yes, I guess it is based on perception. Some could say most of the women in porn are “in control”, they cash in on the weakness of men! Men think they are so hot, and they get to go buy a new car. Perception. You could say anything about anything, really…

 

[anthrogirl]

Don’t drive him to far up the wall, past the façade of strength men are actually quite fragile emotionally.

Males don’t exactly have a terribly easy life either: 1/6 of males are sexually assaulted/ raped by the time they are 16; women are just as violent towards significant others as men are; men who are victimised especially by a female are not allowed to talk about or they get victimised by society and degraded.

You should consider beginning a thread that discusses men as property or a thread that discusses the issues of discrimination and abuse of men by women in positions of dominiation over them (like wives over husbands,employers over employees, crimes targeting men because of their gender, how men are targeted unfairly in terms of jobs and salary/compensation, how women dominate men in socio-political realms, etc ).It would interesting to see what would happen if you flipped the perspective and talked about how men are victims of women in society today. It would be enlightening.

 

[lerapt78]

You should consider beginning a thread that discusses men as property or a thread that discusses the issues of discrimination and abuse of men by women in positions of dominiation over them (like wives over husbands,employers over employees, crimes targeting men because of their gender, how men are targeted unfairly in terms of jobs and salary/compensation, how women dominate men in socio-political realms, etc ).It would interesting to see what would happen if you flipped the perspective and talked about how men are victims of women in society today. It would be enlightening.

I’m all ready for that thread! It would certainly be a wake-up call for women who claim to see “misogyny” everywhere.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

You should consider beginning a thread that discusses men as property or a thread that discusses the issues of discrimination and abuse of men by women in positions of dominiation over them (like wives over husbands,employers over employees, crimes targeting men because of their gender, how men are targeted unfairly in terms of jobs and salary/compensation, how women dominate men in socio-political realms, etc ).It would interesting to see what would happen if you flipped the perspective and talked about how men are victims of women in society today. It would be enlightening.

The issues are somewhat different, for example in Afghanisistan both males and females get treated as property with teenage males treated as disposable weapons and women as only wombs.

The problem is that it is a rather uncomfortable topic to discuss and would probably cause a flamefest.