Woman in Islam.

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i was trying to to descripe the difference between the relation in marriage and the relation out of marriage (regardless of the concept " marriage" )

the relation is the same in christianity , the marriage means responsibility , but adultery means no more than sexual satisfaction and have a fun

anyway , you didn’t comment about this verse which revealed later in madinah

4-25 - If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: and God hath full knowledge about your faith. ye are one from another:** wed them with the leave of their owners**, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: they should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. this (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self restraint. and God is oft forgiving, most merciful.
I’m not sure what you want me to comment on with regard to this verse. :confused: You and I discussed this concept in the other thread and I took your word for it that the master/slave relationship with regard to marriage and right hand possessions was only that Muslim men could marry slave girls (believing ones), but that Muslim men could not just have sexual intercourse with slave girls they had not first legally married.

My entrance into this discussion was the point you made:
Originally Posted by elwill
But as it aimed at putting an end to such issue, Islam laid down rules which would eventually lead to eradicating the practice. So it allowed Muslims to have intercourse with slave women taken as captives of just and legitimate wars. In so doing, the woman would automatically become free if she got pregnant. What’s more, her child would also become free
Your statements here indicate that Muslim men could indeed have intercourse with slave women without the benefit of marriage - marriage as a holy union in the eyes of God. It doesn’t matter what man-made rights/responsibilities you give to a woman, having sex with a woman who is not your wife is adultery. Your statement above also indicates that the woman becomes free if she gets pregnant - she is not free otherwise, but seems to be able to engage in sexual intercourse with her “master”. I just get the impression you are trying to excuse or dress up adultery under the guise of man-made/earthly rights/responsibilities that are given to the woman. What about love/honor/giving glory to God through this union?
 
it is prefered to have one wife instead of doing polygamy

wasalam
Preferred by whom? The prophet Muhammad?
Osama bin Laden has 27 wives and he thinks he has something to say about how women should cover them selves. He is a beast, yet he thinks he is the model of Islam, how does it fit together.

I know I know… the rule is four. But its still just as repulsive.
As a woman I can’t see how you can defend such practices and even advocate a man who had sex with a child of nine and who married his own daughter in law and made up a divine law to justify his own lust in that regard… that law today means that adoption is forbidden in Islam, why many children suffer as orphanages…

The line of sicknesses in Islam is so long there is no end.
 
I know I know… the rule is four. But its still just as repulsive.
As a woman I can’t see how you can defend such practices and even advocate a man who had sex with a child of nine and who married his own daughter in law and made up a divine law to justify his own lust in that regard… that law today means that adoption is forbidden in Islam, why many children suffer as orphanages…

The line of sicknesses in Islam is so long there is no end.
there is a video which i have given the link to you numerous times that explains all this but you never click on it.
here it is: revver.com/video/149925/first-round-ko-islam-vs-christianity-debate/

wasalam
 
okay then-who was the best muslim after Muhammed (pbuh)'s death? also name me the ten who were promised paradise? sorry for questioning u but ur the first so called ex muslim who has calls islam a terrorist religion-and ive seen heaps of ******** ex-muslim vids made by christians
wasalam
i’m sorry right now
you try to change the subject to a personal dialogue and i’m not going to change the subject
anyway i told you his importance in Islam … etc and he was the most man followed mohamed
and muhamed was his idol from his childhood
and what he does to buy women
and you muslim men you may follow him and learn how can you buy women
I think Paul is sincere…I guess he is probably from North Africa (no??)…he has the right to choose whatever he believes
HADI thank’s for your great reply yes i’m from notth africa non-arabic ex sunni muslim
but this sentence shocked me :eek:
i have the right to choose whatever i believe :eek:
now you oppose your prophet mohamed when he said
‏من بدل دينه فاقتلوه‏ = who change his religion kill him :confused:
  • the muslim can take women as slaves
[3] If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess. That will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.
4.3
my comment : of course those poor women are just for sex … how can muhamed a prophet and he commond on war and slaving ? where’s women right when ye capture a woman a free woman and transform her to a slave just like an animal or less
and note this : all non muslim women are legalized ti be captured and be slaves for muslim men . you too CA women
  • how the muslim can buy the slave woman ?
عن ابن عمر أنه كان إذا اشترى جارية كشف عن ساقها ووضع يده بين ثدييها وعلى عجزها وكأنه كان يضعها عليها من وراء الثياب “.
الراوي: نافع مولى ابن عمر
خلاصة الدرجة: إسناده صحيح
المحدث: الألباني
المصدر: إرواء الغليل
الصفحة أو الرقم: 6/201
the traduction ( by myself)
Omar’s son when he went buy the slave woman he uncorvred her leg and put his hands among her breasts and on her Butt like he put his hands under her clothes
Shame shame shame !!!
and they says that the islam the alone religion glory the woman
so elwill you stay in your opinion or not !!
now you don’t feel shame from your religion ?
  • Islam legalise PEDOPHELIA believe or not
4] Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy
65.4
my comment : of course i have no comment i lat the commonts for you
 
I’m not sure what you want me to comment on with regard to this verse. :confused: You and I discussed this concept in the other thread and I took your word for it that the master/slave relationship with regard to marriage and right hand possessions was only that Muslim men could marry slave girls (believing ones), but that Muslim men could not just have sexual intercourse with slave girls they had not first legally married.

My entrance into this discussion was the point you made:

Your statements here indicate that Muslim men could indeed have intercourse with slave women without the benefit of marriage - marriage as a holy union in the eyes of God. It doesn’t matter what man-made rights/responsibilities you give to a woman, having sex with a woman who is not your wife is adultery. Your statement above also indicates that the woman becomes free if she gets pregnant - she is not free otherwise, but seems to be able to engage in sexual intercourse with her “master”. I just get the impression you are trying to excuse or dress up adultery under the guise of man-made/earthly rights/responsibilities that are given to the woman. What about love/honor/giving glory to God through this union?
what i wanted to say entirely that it is a wrong notion that Islam holds no bar on free sex with the enslaved women taken as war captives. The verses 70:29-30 and the verses occurred in 23:5-6. Both these Surahs (23&70) were revealed in Makkah.
Later, in Madina, the law concerning sex with captive women was completed vide 4:25. Which specifically mentions Nikah with them after the payment of Mehr.

It is like the order concerning drinks which were not strictly banned in the beginning but were later declared unlawful. All the three orders related to drinks should be read together for a complete understanding of the law, which now states: 1. There are some benefits of drinks but its evil surpasses its benefits. 2. Salat is not valid if offered while under influence of intoxicants. 3. Intoxicants are unlawful.

Similarly the law regarding captive women can only be comprehended when all the verses concerning them are put together.

After the revelation of Surah Nisa (No-4) in Madina, the comprehensive law can be read as under:
  1. (The believers) who guard their chastity except with their wives or (The captives) whom their right hands possess, for them they are not blame worthy.
    (23:5,6 & 70:29:30)
  2. And whosoever is not able to afford to marry free believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess instead of availing free sex with them. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. You proceed from one another (so the racialism is not behind the wisdom of this order). Wed them by permission of their folk and give unto them, their dowers (Mehrs) according to what is reasonable. They should be chaste, not fornicators (who submit to sex without marriage), nor of loose conduct… this (leave of marrying captives) is for him among you who fear sin.
 
After the revelation of Surah Nisa (No-4) in Madina, the comprehensive law can be read as under:
  1. (The believers) who guard their chastity except with their wives or (The captives) whom their right hands possess, for them they are not blame worthy.
    (23:5,6 & 70:29:30)
  2. And whosoever is not able to afford to marry free believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess instead of availing free sex with them. Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. You proceed from one another (so the racialism is not behind the wisdom of this order). Wed them by permission of their folk and give unto them, their dowers (Mehrs) according to what is reasonable. They should be chaste, not fornicators (who submit to sex without marriage), nor of loose conduct… this (leave of marrying captives) is for him among you who fear sin.
#1 above is exactly what I have a problem with - it says “guard their chastity except with their wives or (the captives) whom their right hands possess”

That word “or” makes a big difference - that says that adultery is OK. I don’t care what rights/responsibilities you give to the captive women or to the man, having sex with someone who is not your wife is adultery. If this verse you posted is from the Quran, then God is seemingly going back on His commandment “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” I honestly don’t know how one cannot see that or can interpret that any other way.

#2 seems to be in contradiction of #1, so I’m not sure if you are showing the progression of the laws or if this is just a contradiction. :confused: Although, even if it is a progression, then God said “Thou shalt not commit adultery”, then made it OK with slave women and then said it was not OK and one had to marry the captive woman. As if God couldn’t make up His mind - (which we all know is not the way of God. :))
 
#1 above is exactly what I have a problem with - it says “guard their chastity except with their wives or (the captives) whom their right hands possess”

That word “or” makes a big difference - that says that adultery is OK. I don’t care what rights/responsibilities you give to the captive women or to the man, having sex with someone who is not your wife is adultery. If this verse you posted is from the Quran, then God is seemingly going back on His commandment “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” I honestly don’t know how one cannot see that or can interpret that any other way.
if you insist to consider it adultery , so it’s okey , i do my best to mention you that quran was deal with behaviour deeply rooted in the society , it was rooted in the time of mose and it was rooted in the time of jesus , it’s not the islam which generate or encouraged it , these verses revealed to limit such behaviour which allready exist as a step toward elimination of it gradualy
and that happened later by the verse which revealed in madinah

anyway , you can consider it adultery as you want , i have no problem if you not convinced , i just tell you the wisdom from using these verses as a step for somthing good to those captives , the captives didn’t find the freedom by any other relegion before islam , islam did a big favor to those slaves , but unfortunatly you concentrate your thoughts that prophet did that for sexual desire to himself and to the muslims

i have nothing to say more about this issue , and you don’t have to change your openion , it’s enough for me that i showed you the other face of the coin

just wanna to say to you that i appreciate your listening

salam 🙂
 
if you insist to consider it adultery , so it’s okey , i do my best to mention you that quran was deal with behaviour deeply rooted in the society , it was rooted in the time of mose and it was rooted in the time of jesus , it’s not the islam which generate or encouraged it , these verses revealed to limit such behaviour which allready exist as a step toward elimination of it gradualy
and that happened later by the verse which revealed in madinah

anyway , you can consider it adultery as you want , i have no problem if you not convinced , i just tell you the wisdom from using these verses as a step for somthing good to those captives , the captives didn’t find the freedom by any other relegion before islam , islam did a big favor to those slaves , but unfortunatly you concentrate your thoughts that prophet did that for sexual desire to himself and to the muslims

i have nothing to say more about this issue , and you don’t have to change your openion , it’s enough for me that i showed you the other face of the coin

just wanna to say to you that i appreciate your listening

salam 🙂
No problem - I enjoy our dialogues. 🙂

I just don’t understand how you don’t consider it adultery. I understand your view that it is a progression of “betterment” for captive women - and my focus is not on Muhammad per se, but on the verses in the Quran that seem to make it ok at one time (the Meccan verses) to have sex with the captive women without benefit of marriage moving to the verses that say that you cannot have sex with them without marriage first. (the Medina verses.) If this is the progression as you say it is, then that puts the truth of the Quran being from God in question, because God clearly and unequivocally states in the Ten Commandments “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. Unless Islam has another definition for adultery. ??? or unless Islam does not recognize the Ten Commandments as being from God. ??? Perhaps I’m missing something there.
 
Preferred by whom? The prophet Muhammad?
Osama bin Laden has 27 wives and he thinks he has something to say about how women should cover them selves. He is a beast, yet he thinks he is the model of Islam, how does it fit together.
**Grace be kind. Do not slip into what the muslims (osama etc) are doing. Otherwise we Muslims will ask you what your christians are doind in Paris and Hamburg.

Perhaps you have never seen teh quran. the verse which says four wives is like this: “Marry two or three or four… But One is the best.” so you now undertand that it is God/Allah who has advised the muslims and preferred one wife for them. It is not the prophet, nor it is Osama**.
I know I know… the rule is four. But its still just as repulsive.
As a woman I can’t see how you can defend such practices and even advocate a man who had sex with a child of nine and who married his own daughter in law and made up a divine law to justify his own lust in that regard… that law today means that adoption is forbidden in Islam, why many children suffer as orphanages…
The line of sicknesses in Islam is so long there is no end.
Sorry, you said too mny things in that paras. i have seen that you people produce too many illegitimate children. they finally end up in an orphanage. That has been happening in Europe for a very long time. In the orphanage, they are brought up under the priests care and become preachers.

** I say that you christians have no law about the age of the wife. How come you are trying to discuss and defame the best of all men who lived on earth. Far better than your man-god. Can you show me any verse from the bible which might fix the good (minimum) age of a wife? i am sure there is no such word in the bible. So why are you discussing. you are masters (or slaves) of your own desires.

So, as usual your bible is incomplete and you are making your own laws and ideas. You have nothing in your scripture. Your words were very bad and abusive. But you have nothing good in your own book. So you can only abuse others.**
 
No BS with us, Jharek. We know all about the beating of the wives in your countries. When a husband comes home drunk, full of booze, he does not recognise his wife. he beats her on the slightest excuse. the poor soul (of the lady) suffers much and finally there is a divorce. Do you know why you have so many (maximum) divorce cases in your places when divorce was not allowed to you. It means your religion has failed to deliver the goods. do you see your own BS?
 
**** I say that you christians have no law about the age of the wife. How come you are trying to discuss and defame the best of all men who lived on earth. Far better than your man-god.**** Can you show me any verse from the bible which might fix the good (minimum) age of a wife? i am sure there is no such word in the bible. So why are you discussing. you are masters (or slaves) of your own desires.

So, as usual your bible is incomplete and you are making your own laws and ideas. You have nothing in your scripture. Your words were very bad and abusive. But you have nothing good in your own book. So you can only abuse others.

You would actually dare to say that Muhammad is “far better” than Jesus?!?!? :eek: I expect you to provide proof of that or apologize. You are waaaaaaaaaay out of line on that one!!! :mad:
 
:rotfl:
Thank you for this! I was all irritated about part of his post that I forgot to laugh at the funny stuff. Maybe they’re robot priests living in caves running the “school for preachers orphanage”. 😃

(Hopefully everyone will remember the post I’m referring to so that I don’t get lumped into the same category of posting nonsense! 😃 )
 
** I say that you christians have *no law about the age of the wife. ***How come you are trying to discuss and defame the best of all men who lived on earth. Far better than your man-god. Can you show me any verse from the bible which might fix the good (minimum) age of a wife? i am sure there is no such word in the bible. So why are you discussing. you are masters (or slaves) of your own desires.

So, as usual your bible is incomplete and you are making your own laws and ideas. You have nothing in your scripture. Your words were very bad and abusive. But you have nothing good in your own book. So you can only abuse others.
Hey ya planten…elwill have mentioned that in Islam there’s no mention about age too, even girls before menstruation can be taken as wives. Why ask such questions about age in Christianity? We have clearly repeatedly said here that Marriage in Christianity is a Holy Matrimony, with the purpose to sanctify each other in the marriage. Many verses in the Bible state that. While elwill said that marriage should be made as simple as Islam views…c’mon read the other posts too, don’t just indulge your self in trying to defend your religion by pointing something that you and your religion have problems!!!

As for you saying that Mohammad is better than Jesus, then you’re saying that Mohammad is better than God. That’s a real insult…!!!How could a man with uncontrolled lust be compared to Jesus, the God incarnated! You’re really making a real big mistake…!!!:bigyikes::bigyikes::bigyikes:
 
No problem - I enjoy our dialogues. 🙂

I just don’t understand how you don’t consider it adultery. I understand your view that it is a progression of “betterment” for captive women - and my focus is not on Muhammad per se, but on the verses in the Quran that seem to make it ok at one time (the Meccan verses) to have sex with the captive women without benefit of marriage moving to the verses that say that you cannot have sex with them without marriage first. (the Medina verses.) If this is the progression as you say it is, then that puts the truth of the Quran being from God in question, because God clearly and unequivocally states in the Ten Commandments “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. Unless Islam has another definition for adultery. ??? or unless Islam does not recognize the Ten Commandments as being from God. ??? Perhaps I’m missing something there.
you view the situation in mekkah as to be **permission ** from islam to intercourse with slaves , but i don’t see the situation like that
i just think it wasn’t suitable time to prohibit it .
exactly as was happend with drinking alcohol , it was norm in this era to drink alcohol , and it wasn’t the suitable time to prohibit it so quran just refered to it’s harming , then after awhile he prohibit muslims to pray under the influences of alchohol then after awhile he prohibited it completly
 
you view the situation in mekkah as to be **permission ** from islam to intercourse with slaves , but i don’t see the situation like that
**i just think it wasn’t suitable time to prohibit it . **
exactly as was happend with drinking alcohol , it was norm in this era to drink alcohol , and it wasn’t the suitable time to prohibit it so quran just refered to it’s harming , then after awhile he prohibit muslims to pray under the influences of alchohol then after awhile he prohibited it completly
That’s my point! God DID prohibit it already - in the Ten Commandments. If the Quran was truly from God it should have been a clear reiteration of His previous command. This isn’t even similar to the situation with divorce, where Jesus said that God permitted divorce during the time of Moses “by reason of the hardness of your heart”, but “it was not so from the beginning”. (Matthew 19:7-9) because God did not explicitly say in the Ten Commandments “Thou shalt not divorce” and then permit it. Do you see what I mean?

(BTW, the divorce issue is another of Muhammad’s contradictions with previous scriptures (the Bible) 😉 )

And this is not the same as the situation with alcohol (which I also don’t believe is a directive from God. ;)). God didn’t at one time say “Thou shalt not drink alcohol”, then make it OK for awhile because everyone was doing it anyway and then prohibit it again.
 
You would actually dare to say that Muhammad is “far better” than Jesus?!?!? :eek: I expect you to provide proof of that or apologize. You are waaaaaaaaaay out of line on that one!!! :mad:
Perhaps it’s time again to start a new thread comparing Jesus Christ and mohamad and we’ll who comes on top!!!
 
Jay - here is another one for you - if the muslim members have a problem with this, they can write to islam-qa.com.

Fatwa: 10382

Principles of Fiqh » Jurisprudence and Islamic Rulings » Transactions » Slavery

**Ruling on having intercourse with a slave woman when one has a wife **

Could you please clarify for me something that has been troubling me for a while. This concerns the right of a man to have sexual relations with slave girls. Is this so?

If it is then is the man allowed to have relations with her as well his wife/wives.

Also, is it true that a man can have sexual relations with any number of slave girls and with their own wife/wives also?

I have read that Hazrat Ali had 17 slave girls and Hazrat Umar also had many.

Surely if a man were allowed this freedom then this could lead to neglecting the wife’s needs. Could you also tell clarify wether the wife has got any say in this matter.

Praise be to Allaah.

**Islam allows a man to have intercourse with his slave woman, whether he has a wife or wives or he is not married. **

A slave woman with whom a man has intercourse is known as a sariyyah (concubine) from the word sirr, which means marriage.

This is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah, and this was done by the Prophets. Ibraaheem (peace be upon him) took Haajar as a concubine and she bore him Ismaa’eel (may peace be upon them all).

Our Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also did that, as did the Sahaabah, the righteous and the scholars. The scholars are unanimously agreed on that and it is not permissible for anyone to regard it as haraam or to forbid it. Whoever regards that as haraam is a sinner who is going against the consensus of the scholars.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”

[al-Nisa’ 4:3]

What is meant by “or (slaves) that your right hands possess” is slave women whom you own.

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), and those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses — whom Allaah has given to you, and the daughters of your ‘Amm (paternal uncles) and the daughters of your ‘Ammaat (paternal aunts) and the daughters of your Khaal (maternal uncles) and the daughters of your Khaalaat (maternal aunts) who migrated (from Makkah) with you, and a believing woman if she offers herself to the Prophet, and the Prophet wishes to marry her a privilege for you only, not for the (rest of) the believers. Indeed We know what We have enjoined upon them about their wives and those (slaves) whom their right hands possess, in order that there should be no difficulty on you. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Ahzaab 33:50]

“And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts from illegal sexual acts).

Except from their wives or the (women slaves) whom their right hands possess for (then) they are not blameworthy.

But whosoever seeks beyond that, then it is those who are trespassers”
[al-Ma’aarij 70:29-31]

** continued **
 
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