Women and Islam

[ahollars]

The reason there is no “Palestine” on a map is because Israel is on top of it. That whole strip there is Palestine, and has been known as such for centuries.

Fair enough. But what about Egypt and Jordan? Didn’t they once claim ownership of the land in question? Weren’t the people caught in the war once considered Egyptian and Jordanian? Regardless of what you think of the situation today, do those nations bear any responsibility for sealing their own borders and stopping the Palestinians from fleeing when they tried in the past, especially the peaceful ones who were not interested in “wiping Israel off the map”?

Just thinking out loud…

 

[jakasaki]

The reason there is no “Palestine” on a map is because Israel is on top of it. That whole strip there is Palestine, and has been known as such for centuries.

ahollars Re: Women and Islam

Fair enough. But what about Egypt and Jordan? Didn’t they once claim ownership of the land in question? Weren’t the people caught in the war once considered Egyptian and Jordanian? Regardless of what you think of the situation today, do those nations bear any responsibility for sealing their own borders and stopping the Palestinians from fleeing when they tried in the past, especially the peaceful ones who were not interested in “wiping Israel off the map”?

Just thinking out loud…

Hello… we are drifting off into another topic now… thread is “women & islam”

If you wish to discuss Palestine, please move on to a new topic…

Thanks!

 

[jakasaki]

I speak from my own experience as a former soldier who spent a year in the Persian Gulf nations.

.

Dear member Ahollars, I know I’m off topic, but I for one would like to send you my personal **Thank You ** sir/ma’am for serving our great nation.

May God Bless America Always… and Keep Her Safe !!!

Best regards,
Pam
New York

 

[dzheremi]

I speak from my own experience as a former soldier who spent a year in the Persian Gulf nations.

Islam has a brotherhood because of the hajj. It is the one thing that every Muslim must do or has done. That is what unites them in a worldwide sense. It transcends all else. As Catholics, we have the Pope. Whenever he speaks we are united.

At the same time, the two are not comparable. Catholics do not suffer the pain of other Catholics simply because they are Catholic. An attack on one is not an attack on all, unless the reason for the attack was Catholicism itself. That is why there is a fallout now between Christianity and Islam. Islam will rally to the defense of Muslims who are attacked, even if the attack has nothing to do with religion. The prime example of that was Iraq.

With regard to the portion I have bolded: I think this is relative. To WESTERN Christians, it may be so, because our societies are by and large individualistic, but among the Eastern Christians I have known it has been the opposite. My Armenian Orthodox friends are always very happy to discuss the Christian history of their people, and this bonds us more than even the common language we share (both as non-native speakers of Russian), and my Palestinian, Lebanese, Iraqi, and Tanzanian Christian friends (ACOE, EO, and Catholic) all became much closer when we discovered we all share a religion. This is also even the case with the Latinos I grew up with in my own family and community. I think maybe Anglo-Catholics might feel differently, and certainly Catholics from non-Anglo backgrounds might not express their solidarity in ways similar to the Muslims, but that doesn’t mean the bond is any less real.

It is like in another thread a while ago when I got into an argument about the Palestinian Christians with a poster who insisted that they were not good people because they leave Palestine rather than fight for it. My point was then that the means of “fighting” vary according to religion because the religions themselves have different views on what is appropriate to do to help a brother or sister of faith. THAT is the reason for the “fallout” between Christianity and Islam, not because Christians do not have a sense of common brotherhood! I believe in a free Assyria for Assyrians, and a free Palestine for all the worshipers of Palestine (Christian, Jewish, or Muslim…just not one above the other). Call me an idealist…

The reason there is no “Palestine” on a map is because Israel is on top of it. That whole strip there is Palestine, and has been known as such for centuries.

And the reason there is no Assyria on a map is because Kurdistan is on top of it, and the reason why there is no Kurdistan is because Iraq is on top of it, and the reason why there is no independent Southern Sudanese People’s Republic is because it is forcibly yoked to the Islamic Sudanese state, and the reason why there is no independent Assam is because it is forcibly yoked to India, and…and, and, and…! We could do this all day. I understand and to an extent agree with your point (in light of everything I wrote above), but everything that is rightly said of the Palestinian Muslims with regard to their claim to the land can be also said of the Christians and Jews of the entire Middle East, too.

So whose claim is “objectively” right? I guess if we could ever determine that to any degree of mutual satisfaction, there wouldn’t be any “Israel-Palestine” issue to fight over to begin with! Maybe “right” ought to be replaced with “fair”, though that just leads to the question of who gets to decide what’s fair…

 

[Cluny]

Honor killings are forbidden in Islam. I would like to see you provide proof that it’s only done by Muslims (I don’t think that’s a true statement, so prove me wrong.) Either way, though, it’s still absolutely forbidden in Islam.

Then why do Moslem men do it in the name of Islam?

Female Genital Mutilation is also not Islamic. And as a matter of fact it occurs in African nations, regardless of religion. It happens to Christians too, and people of various tribal religions. But in Muslim countries all over the rest of the world, it practically never happens. So it’s a cultural thing in Africa, and not related to Islam.*

Christian leaders, including His Holiness Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Church, have spoken out repeatedly against it.

Where are the Moslem voices raised against either practice?

And you never have YET explained honor killings among Moslems in the West. “You too” is not a rebuttal.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Honor killings are forbidden in Islam. I would like to see you provide proof that it’s only done by Muslims (I don’t think that’s a true statement, so prove me wrong.) Either way, though, it’s still absolutely forbidden in Islam.

Then why do Moslem men do it in the name of Islam?

You haven’t proven that to be the case. It is something seen in men hailing from certain cultures–you will not find any notion of “honor killings” in Islamic law, you won’t find it in the Qur’an, you won’t find it in the hadith. It’s not something that has ever been a practice in Islam. It is without a doubt murder, cold-blooded murder, often murder without guilt being proven. There is nothing honorable about it. I say this again and again.

Female Genital Mutilation is also not Islamic. And as a matter of fact it occurs in African nations, regardless of religion. It happens to Christians too, and people of various tribal religions. But in Muslim countries all over the rest of the world, it practically never happens. So it’s a cultural thing in Africa, and not related to Islam.*

Christian leaders, including His Holiness Pope Shenouda of the Coptic Church, have spoken out repeatedly against it.

Where are the Moslem voices raised against either practice?

And you never have YET explained honor killings among Moslems in the West. “You too” is not a rebuttal.

Where are the Muslim voices? They’re probably being choked to death with the smoke of bombs dropping on their towns. Muslims constantly speak out about it, whenever it’s brought up, deploring it as condemnable injustice against women.

And I NEVER said “you too” about honor killings. Never once. You didn’t prove it is “only” among Muslims–I challenge the claim and I’m asking for proof, since you made such a bold claim in the first place. However, I don’t need to know if Muslims or non-Muslims are doing it, either way it is totally forbidden and a HUGE sin.

 

[chrisse]

Honor killings are forbidden in Islam. I would like to see you provide proof that it’s only done by Muslims (I don’t think that’s a true statement, so prove me wrong.) Either way, though, it’s still absolutely forbidden in Islam.

Female Genital Mutilation is also not Islamic. And as a matter of fact it occurs in African nations, regardless of religion. It happens to Christians too, and people of various tribal religions. But in Muslim countries all over the rest of the world, it practically never happens. So it’s a cultural thing in Africa, and not related to Islam.

Honor killings : specifically mentioned in the qur’an. No punishment under shariah for a parent/grandparent who kills a child/grandchild. We can assume here that a husband takes the place of the father under shariah. I’ve posted the sources for this 3 times on CAF.

Female circumcision - not mandated, considered preferable. This is what has caused so many problems and abuses. There is a hadith where Mohammed warns a woman performing circumcision on a child, not to cut off too much.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Honor killings : specifically mentioned in the qur’an. No punishment under shariah for a parent/grandparent who kills a child/grandchild. We can assume here that a husband takes the place of the father under shariah. I’ve posted the sources for this 3 times on CAF.

Female circumcision - not mandated, considered preferable. This is what has caused so many problems and abuses. There is a hadith where Mohammed warns a woman performing circumcision on a child, not to cut off too much.

What are you talking about? Unless you bring proof for these statements, I’m going to consider you to be an outright liar.

First of all, it is absolutely not allowed for a parent to kill his child! The Qur’an forbids it! At least twice! And a grandparent? Equally forbidden.

Secondly, female circumcision has no basis in Islamic Law. It was a cultural practice before Islam, and is better to be avoided entirely. (That hadith is talking about women who were doing it anyway, and the hadith is actually to keep them from doing too much since they wouldn’t stop it.)

Bring your sources, I dare you.

 

[Booklover]

What are you talking about? Unless you bring proof for these statements, I’m going to consider you to be an outright liar.

First of all, it is absolutely not allowed for a parent to kill his child! The Qur’an forbids it! At least twice! And a grandparent? Equally forbidden.

Secondly, female circumcision has no basis in Islamic Law. It was a cultural practice before Islam, and is better to be avoided entirely. (That hadith is talking about women who were doing it anyway, and the hadith is actually to keep them from doing too much since they wouldn’t stop it.)

Bring your sources, I dare you.

Of course, it’s never Islam! I wonder where the elusive “real” Islam is. Muslims claim that Islam is so easy and it seems that most Muslims misinterpret its teachings. And yet when you look at Muhammad’s life and what’s in the Quran you find justification for all those heinous things, but Muslims in their “indoctrination” cannot see the truth anymore!

Vickie

 

[Sister_Amy]

Of course, it’s never Islam! I wonder where the elusive “real” Islam is. Muslims claim that Islam is so easy and it seems that most Muslims misinterpret its teachings. And yet when you look at Muhammad’s life and what’s in the Quran you find justification for all those heinous things, but Muslims in their “indoctrination” cannot see the truth anymore!

Vickie

I just finished taking a class almost 30 hours long on the biography of Muhammad. I’ve read the Qur’an in its entirety and I read it often.

And I’m the only telling you that this nonsense you’re preaching ain’t there. I never find it in my books, I never hear it from my teachers. If Muslims aren’t teaching it, then the obvious answer is that you’re just making it up.

 

[Booklover]

What are you talking about? Unless you bring proof for these statements, I’m going to consider you to be an outright liar.

First of all, it is absolutely not allowed for a parent to kill his child! The Qur’an forbids it! At least twice! And a grandparent? Equally forbidden.

Secondly, female circumcision has no basis in Islamic Law. It was a cultural practice before Islam, and is better to be avoided entirely. (That hadith is talking about women who were doing it anyway, and the hadith is actually to keep them from doing too much since they wouldn’t stop it.)

Bring your sources, I dare you.

How would you like as a woman to be referred to as:

2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilt as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad)

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

I just finished taking a class almost 30 hours long on the biography of Muhammad. I’ve read the Qur’an in its entirety and I read it often.

And I’m the only telling you that this nonsense you’re preaching ain’t there. I never find it in my books, I never hear it from my teachers. If Muslims aren’t teaching it, then the obvious answer is that you’re just making it up.

Really! Wake up, you’re being conned by fairytales and you’re taking it hook, line and sinker.

Vickie

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Thanks. I just wanted to clarify the point–I think you know my view but maybe not everyone else does, and I’d hate to be misunderstood on something like that.

Goof-balls? Hmm.

Actually, I think this is a fair criticism, their world-view involves religion with politics, but let me explain how I see it. Muslims are a single nation–they are a nation, regardless of their location, of their ethnicity, or even their language. And when one part of that nation is suffering, the rest of the nation feels it. They are one brotherhood, and when some of the brothers are hurting, the rest of the brothers hurt for them and try to help. That’s a major reason why some men living in caves in one part of the world are willing to risk their lives for their brothers who are being oppressed in another part of the world.

Now, that oppression is political, not religious. Specifically, the oppression of the Palestinian people at the hands of Israel. It is oppression, and it is political (at least, more so than religious.) The Palestinians aren’t really being oppressed for being Muslim, obviously, as the Christian Palestinians are going through pretty much the same thing.

But all the Muslims in the world are pained over the suffering of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank–even if they live in caves in south/central Asia, even if they live on the other side of the world and speak another language, they still hurt. Because of the bond through the religion.

So yeah there is politics and religion at play, that’s true. The religion is the bond with other Muslims. The goal (this is just one of many that’s easy to explain) is to establish justice for the Palestinians. There are political and religious manifestations of that goal. Politically one can say solidly enough that what is happening to the Palestinians is not just. It violates international law. The USA is sometimes assisting Israel in the oppression of Palestinians so it could also be violating international law. The religious implication is that Muslims are supposed to strive for justice in all cases, and this specifically is an injustice against Muslims.

So yeah there are political and religious aspects to the overall ideology, but in that way.

Unfortunately, the way things are actually framed is to say that Muslims want to take over the world or something and force everyone into islam or cut of their heads–meaning Muslims are trying to establish political power and religious domination. But neither of those are true. So I typed a lot here but I hope it made sense.

I don’t think it’s really fair to blame the US at first–it reacted pretty much naturally given the circumstances. It was brutally and unjustly attacked.

However, that was almost 8 years ago, and the bloodshed continues, and I don’t think that is right. I think the US at some point (like in 2003) transgressed and started becoming an aggressor and causing more problems in the world. It wasn’t immediate. So at first the USA was more or less justified–that’s why people were so supportive of the war in Afghanistan, especially at first. But the Iraq War for instance has always been much more contentious–there is far less justification for it. And I think that’s where we see the US becoming more and more blameworthy for its actions in the world.

Why don’t other Muslim nations offer the Palestinians a place to live & they’ll no longer be oppressed?

 

[planten]

Of course, it’s never Islam! I wonder where the elusive “real” Islam is. Muslims claim that Islam is so easy and it seems that most Muslims misinterpret its teachings. And yet when you look at Muhammad’s life and what’s in the Quran you find justification for all those heinous things, but Muslims in their “indoctrination” cannot see the truth anymore!

Vickie

**B L, There is nothing wrong or bad in the Quran or in the life of our prophet. We have yet to scrutinise the 30 years of the life your god almighty (Jesus). Why that is hidden completely from the public? After that, another 1900 years of hidden life of Jesus some where is also a mystery. There are no heineous things in the life of Muslims. The life of Muslims is much more careful and divine-like (real clean) compared to the utter sinful drinking gambling life of the christians today.

There may be mistakes in the life of the present day Muslims because they follow the bad habits of the christians. But there is nothing written in our books to do those bad things. We have a complete good code to guide us to heavenly life. But you people have got nothing in your bible to help or guide you. There is absolutely nothing in your bible except a few good words from Jesus (which could have been uttered by any good man)…**

 

[Booklover]

B L, There is nothing wrong or bad in the Quran or in the life of our prophet. We have yet to scrutinise the 30 years of the life your god almighty (Jesus). Why that is hidden completely from the public? After that, another 1900 years of hidden life of Jesus some where is also a mystery. There are no heineous things in the life of Muslims. The life of Muslims is much more careful and divine-like (real clean) compared to the utter sinful drinking gambling life of the christians today.

There may be mistakes in the life of the present day Muslims because they follow the bad habits of the christians. But there is nothing written in our books to do those bad things. We have a complete good code to guide us to heavenly life. But you people have got nothing in your bible to help or guide you. There is absolutely nothing in your bible except a few good words from Jesus (which could have been uttered by any good man)…

For thirty years of his life, Jesus lived an ordinary life just like the rest of us!

Excuse me, but your books are full of the most unspeakable cruelty and immoral behaviour as exemplified by your prophet Muhammad!

Vickie

Vickie

 

[ralphinal]

Why don’t other Muslim nations offer the Palestinians a place to live & they’ll no longer be oppressed?

AS a rule, the displaced people of Palestine are uneducated and without any form of wealth or resources. In other words, they do not get a place because they can contribute nothing

 

[chrisse]

What are you talking about? Unless you bring proof for these statements, I’m going to consider you to be an outright liar.

First of all, it is absolutely not allowed for a parent to kill his child! The Qur’an forbids it! At least twice! And a grandparent? Equally forbidden.

Secondly, female circumcision has no basis in Islamic Law. It was a cultural practice before Islam, and is better to be avoided entirely. (That hadith is talking about women who were doing it anyway, and the hadith is actually to keep them from doing too much since they wouldn’t stop it.)

Bring your sources, I dare you.

No Sister Amy, you have proved yourself a lazy and incompetent debater with your unsubstantiated claims and throwaway insults. You link to sources you don’t even read or authenticate. Any replies from me to you now, will not have sources, do you do not deserve such until you lift your debating game here.

Honor Killing is explicitly in the qur’an and under shariah law there is no death penalty for it. I HAVE provided the sources for that 3 times on this board. And in threads you were active in. They were in reply to Muslim Woman.

Sister Amy being called a liar by a muslim has no impact on me. Hysterical, an adherent of the ideology of Islam wherein lying is prescribed for them calling someone else a liar. Also hypocritical of them. I am not lying, so it’s just empty name calling on your part.

On circumcision, the hadith in question doesn’t stop it. Mohammed just said don’t cut too much as it’s better for the husband and for the woman. Thereby, as a result, female circumcision has remained in the Islamic world, infecting the societies where it holds a majority, and leading to abuses of FGM with devastating results. They cannot ban it in Islam, because the most perfect man of hate and decadence that muslims must try to imitate, Mohammed, DID NOT ban it, he condoned it.

 

[chrisse]

AS a rule, the displaced people of Palestine are uneducated and without any form of wealth or resources. In other words, they do not get a place because they can contribute nothing

The Palestinian people are given so much money from foreign aid they do not have to work nor produce anything. They are producing babies though, all on foreign aid $, and these same babies are being indoctrinated into savage suicide killers. Disgusting, both on our part, in encouraging and ignoring this by continuing with foreign aid, and on the part of the Islamic ideology on which it is based.

 

[ferdie]

The Palestinian people are given so much money from foreign aid they do not have to work nor produce anything. They are producing babies though, all on foreign aid $, and these same babies are being indoctrinated into savage suicide killers. Disgusting, both on our part, in encouraging and ignoring this by continuing with foreign aid, and on the part of the Islamic ideology on which it is based.

It seems that this Israeli -Palestinian conflict is about money. The foreign aid that they receive doesn’t really go to the Palestinian people but to the politicians pocket and to the indoctrination of the terrorists.

 

[chrisse]

It seems that this Israeli -Palestinian conflict is about money. The foreign aid that they receive doesn’t really go to the Palestinian people but to the politicians pocket and to the indoctrination of the terrorists.

Yes, I know that, which ensures that they can keep demanding more money for the “suffering” Palestinians. Of course, they blame the Israeli’s and the Western useful idiots ignore the enormous aid being provided by the Israeli’s - aid that is often hijacked by Hamas et al and then on-sold at exhorbitant prices.