Women as Deacons?

[Catholic2003]

FrRobSST:

… and I would have some issues with women ‘officiating’ at marriages (though, admittedly, since Western Christain theology teaches that the man and woman are the ministers of the Sacrament, not the clergy, I suppose a woman could be deputed to be the representative of the Church… I still would prefer to avoid that!).

This can already happen under current canon law:

Canon 1112 §1 Where there are no priests and deacons, the diocesan Bishop can delegate lay persons to assist at marriages, if the Episcopal Conference has given its prior approval and the permission of the Holy See has been obtained.

Canon 1108 §2 Only that person who, being present, asks the contracting parties to manifest their consent and in the name of the Church receives it, is understood to assist at a marriage.

Note that canon 1112 refers to “lay persons”, not “lay men”.

 

[Catholic2003]

Lurch104:

From my reading of the CCC, this is not possible. The CCC makes no difference between any of the three levels of Holy Orders. To receive this sacrament, the recipient must be male.

This is true under current canon law:

Canon 1024 Only a baptised man can validly receive sacred ordination.

However, I believe the poll is asking whether the canon law should be changed to allow women deacons.

Lurch104:

I believe that PJPII’s letter on the issue then applies to deacons as well.

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis reaffirms Inter Insigniores, which explicitly states that it does not address the issue of female permanent deacons.

 

[fix]

FrRobSST:

In the pontificals of the Pre-Schism Eastern Churches, the term ORDINATION was used with regard to Deaconesses.

They were in something of a gray zone. They were not in Minor Orders, as they were permitted to wear the stole in the manner of a deacon.

They were not in Major Orders, for they were not permitted to officiate at anything that was not directly involving women.

Nevertheless, in the Byzantine, Syriac, Coptic, and Malabarese writings, the term Ordination is used to describe the Deaconess.

The strongest one is a Byzantine pontifical which states that all things done for the ordination of a deacon shall be done, changing the name to Deaconess, omitting the call to instruct men and substituting it with an instruction of women, and then the bishop handing the deaconess the chalice to hold while the bishop administered communion by Intinction. It seems this form for the ordination of a deaconess was conducted after the Bishop and clergy had recieved communion.

Thus, there is a history, and the Vatican has not ruled it totally out… but I wouldn’t hold your breath for it. Only a few Byzantine Churches still make use of the Deaconess, though the rites remained in their pontificals for some time.

For more, you may wish to pick up a wonderful book by Paul F. Bradshaw, “Ordination Rites of the Ancient Churches of East and West”.

Rob+

Join Date: May 3, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 910

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: Have there been female deacons?
There were women in the early Church who assisted the clergy, such as Phoebe who was called a “deaconess” by Paul and aided the local church in Cenchreae (cf. Rom. 16:1). Such women usually assisted in the baptism of women, made necessary by early use of immersion baptism.

Although there is some historical evidence that deaconesses were specially charged with their ministry in a manner resembling the ordination of deacons, it is certain that there was a fundamental difference in the rites. By their ordination deacons receive the sacrament of holy orders, although in a lesser degree than priests and bishops, a sacrament that women cannot validly receive. If there indeed was a special liturgical rite for deaconesses, it likely resembled the non-sacramental “investiture” ceremonies held in conjunction with a Mass that charge extraordinary ministers of holy Communion with their responsibilities.

Recommended reading:

Deaconesses
Bishop, Priest, and Deacon
Women and the Priesthood

Michelle Arnold http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/statusicon_cad/user_online.gif vbmenu_register(“postmenu_331779”, true);
Catholic Answers Apologist

 

[fix]

FrRobSST:

In the western tradition, this seems to have been the only role for a deaconess, but the eastern tradition provided a bit more in the way of duties, and did use the term ordination in their pontifical rites.

Rob+

Father,

There seems to be some confusion as to whether in ancient times females were authentically ordained as we use the term today. The New Advent sites has some citations that say females were not ordained as we understand the term today. What do you say?

 

[dranzal]

Hello.

In response to the earlier post that many parents would love to see one or more of their sons become priests to help the “shortage”…

It confounds my eight year old daughter that she has 3 younger siblings, none of whom are girls. I just tell people that God is using my family to single-handedly reverse the shortage. My boys are 6, 5, and 1 so expect a turnaround in about 20 years. :clapping:

I would definitely support any or all of them (the boys) if they wanted to become priests.

 

[LoneRanger]

Not Historical

Not Scriptural

Not Logical

Imho

 

[FrRobSST]

fix:

Father,

There seems to be some confusion as to whether in ancient times females were authentically ordained as we use the term today. The New Advent sites has some citations that say females were not ordained as we understand the term today. What do you say?

Well, from early Byzantine Pontificals:
PRAYER FOR THE ORDINATION OF A DEACONESS

After the holy oblation has been made and the doors are open, before the deacon says, “All the saints…”, she who is to be ordained is brought to the bishop.

There is a series of prayers and the deacon laying his hand upon the deaconess-candidate and then this:

The archbishop holds his hand in the same way on the head of the ordinand, praying:
Lord, Lord, you who do not reject women offering themselves and wishing to minister in your holy houses in accordance with what is fitting, but recieve them in an order of ministers; bestow the grace of your Holy Spirit also on this your servant who wishes to offer herself to you, and fill her with the grace of the diaconate, as you gave the grace of your diaconate to Phoebe whom you called to the work of ministry…

After the AMEN, he places the diaconal orarion (stole) around her neck under the maphorion (cincture, I believe) bringing forward the two ends. And then after she has recieved the holy body and precious blood, the archbishop gives her the holy cup which she recieves and places on the holy table (which seems to be a reference to the table used to set the chalice on for intinction - since the Byzantine Rite of this era refers to the altar exclusively as the Altar).

In the west, deaconesses don’t appear in much literature, with more attention paid to the widows. Nevertheless, in the eastern traditions, there is ample evidence for ordination of women as deaconesses. That being said, one must keep in mind that the phrase ordination was also used to refer to the various minor orders in the west, so take it for what it is worth.

Rob+

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

FrRobSST:

Well, from early Byzantine Pontificals:
PRAYER FOR THE ORDINATION OF A DEACONESS

After the holy oblation has been made and the doors are open, before the deacon says, “All the saints…”, she who is to be ordained is brought to the bishop.

There is a series of prayers and the deacon laying his hand upon the deaconess-candidate and then this:

The archbishop holds his hand in the same way on the head of the ordinand, praying:
Lord, Lord, you who do not reject women offering themselves and wishing to minister in your holy houses in accordance with what is fitting, but recieve them in an order of ministers; bestow the grace of your Holy Spirit also on this your servant who wishes to offer herself to you, and fill her with the grace of the diaconate, as you gave the grace of your diaconate to Phoebe whom you called to the work of ministry…

After the AMEN, he places the diaconal orarion (stole) around her neck under the maphorion (cincture, I believe) bringing forward the two ends. And then after she has recieved the holy body and precious blood, the archbishop gives her the holy cup which she recieves and places on the holy table (which seems to be a reference to the table used to set the chalice on for intinction - since the Byzantine Rite of this era refers to the altar exclusively as the Altar).

In the west, deaconesses don’t appear in much literature, with more attention paid to the widows. Nevertheless, in the eastern traditions, there is ample evidence for ordination of women as deaconesses. That being said, one must keep in mind that the phrase ordination was also used to refer to the various minor orders in the west, so take it for what it is worth.

Rob+

All that from a Protestant pretending to be a Catholic priest…

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Pariah Pirana:

All that from a Protestant pretending to be a Catholic priest…

And that didn’t sound triumphalistic at allllllll. Our Lord (not to mention our late Holy Father) must be so pleased.

 

[Deacon_Tony560]

There are now over 15,000 permanent deacons in the U.S. More and more are being Ordained yearly. Our bishop feels that deacons will eventually outnumber priests in our diocese. In Southern California, a large diocese is down to about 50 priests. They have deacons and lay administraters at the parish level and the priests travel around saying Mass and administering the Sacraments. This could be a sign of things to come if vocations don’t pick up.

God bless,
Deacon Tony

 

[FrRobSST]

Pariah Pirana:

All that from a Protestant pretending to be a Catholic priest…

Actually, all that from Father Paul Bradshaw, associate professor of theology at Notre Dame University.

So, I guess the question becomes, are you accusing me of inventing what I wrote?

Rob+

 

[chevalier]

All those “deaconesses”, “priestesses” and “bishopesses” were designations of wives, when the clergy could still be married in the Western church, except women charged with some responsibilites, who were called “deaconesses” but not ordained.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

FrRobSST:

Actually, all that from Father Paul Bradshaw, associate professor of theology at Notre Dame University.

So, I guess the question becomes, are you accusing me of inventing what I wrote?

Rob+

Knowing the source of your quote you might as well have made it up. How would you ever know he was a priest. Notre Dame is not an institution that I trust after all they also have Father McBrien.

Father, I do believe people seeing your post think that you are a Roman Catholic Priest. I realized the first post I read from you that you were not and I checked your id to confirm it. You are a puzzlement because I have never heard of your affiliation before. I don’t know if you mean to mislead, but I am afraid many people assume to much.

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

JKirkLVNV:

And that didn’t sound triumphalistic at allllllll. Our Lord (not to mention our late Holy Father) must be so pleased.

Please explain what a triumphalistic is. I could not find it in the dictionary. Darn that old thing.

Pariah Pirana and JKirkLVNV above all charity.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Ann Cheryl:

Knowing the source of your quote you might as well have made it up. How would you ever know he was a priest. Notre Dame is not an institution that I trust after all they also have Father McBrien.

Father, I do believe people seeing your post think that you are a Roman Catholic Priest. I realized the first post I read from you that you were not and I checked your id to confirm it. You are a puzzlement because I have never heard of your affiliation before. I don’t know if you mean to mislead, but I am afraid many people assume to much.

That’s an extremely ignorant statement. The Holy Cross Fathers are the spirutal heads of Notre Dame. Not some secular, tenured professor like McBrien.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

FrRobSST:

Actually, all that from Father Paul Bradshaw, associate professor of theology at Notre Dame University.

So, I guess the question becomes, are you **accusing me of inventing what I wrote? **

Rob+

I am accusing you of being a Protestant minister who attempts to give the impression that you are a Catholic priest.

Given the make-up of this forum and CA in general, you’re confusing more than a few as anyone advertising themselves as you do here is assumed to be a Catholic priest.

 

[gelsbern]

Pariah Pirana:

I am accusing you of being a Protestant minister who attempts to give the impression that you are a Catholic priest.

Given the make-up of this forum and CA in general, you’re confusing more than a few as anyone advertising themselves as you do here is assumed to be a Catholic priest.

Wow, I had no clue you had more authority than Rome who does indeed recognize Fr. Rob’s orders as valid. It must be hard to be you with all that reponsibility. All hail Pope Pariah Pirana

 

[tuopaolo]

I would only support women as deaconesses if there were an infallible statement from the magisterium stating that women could be deacons.

 

[tuopaolo]

gelsbern:

Wow, I had no clue you had more authority than Rome who does indeed recognize Fr. Rob’s orders as valid. It must be hard to be you with all that reponsibility. All hail Pope Pariah Pirana

Um, even if Rome recognizes Fr Rob’s orders as valid, that doesn’t make him a Catholic priest. Thus if as I understand it Fr Rob is not a Catholic priest, then it is misleading and deceptive for him to present himself as a Catholic priest.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

tuopaolo:

Um, even if Rome recognizes Fr Rob’s orders as valid, that doesn’t make him a Catholic priest. Thus if as I understand it Fr Rob is not a Catholic priest, then it is misleading and deceptive for him to present himself as a Catholic priest.

Anglican, Orthodox, Old Catholics, and some Lutheran groups all consider themselves “Catholic.” We say they aren’t (except the Orthodox and Old Catholics), but we try to be polite about it. This is one of the times when the qualifier “Roman Catholic” is kind of handy, even though I learned on these forums that we shouldn’t use it, really (we’re Catholics of this or that rite). Nonetheless, we don’t hold a patent or copyright on the word “catholic.” The gentleman also has a qualifier on his signature: “primative catholic.” That ought to be enough to identify him as not being in communion with Rome, but still worthy of the respect accorded our fellow Christians under section 818 of the Catechism.