Women as Deacons?

[JKirkLVNV]

Ann Cheryl:

Please explain what a triumphalistic is. I could not find it in the dictionary. Darn that old thing.

.

It means an attitude of “we’re number 1!”, a lacking in humility, if you will. It’s inappropriate since the Catholic Church teaches that we’re saved by God’s grace.

 

[tuopaolo]

JKirkLVNV:

Anglican, Orthodox, Old Catholics, and some Lutheran groups all consider themselves “Catholic.” We say they aren’t (except the Orthodox and Old Catholics), but we try to be polite about it. This is one of the times when the qualifier “Roman Catholic” is kind of handy, even though I learned on these forums that we shouldn’t use it, really (we’re Catholics of this or that rite). Nonetheless, we don’t hold a patent or copyright on the word “catholic.” The gentleman also has a qualifier on his signature: “primative catholic.” That ought to be enough to identify him as not being in communion with Rome, but still worthy of the respect accorded our fellow Christians under section 818 of the Catechism.

The Orthodox and so-called Old Catholics are not Catholics. They are schismatics and heretics (the Old Catholics for example deny papal infallibility). Only those in communion with Rome are Catholics. The Catholic Church does not recognize the Orthodox as Catholics. Your confusion about this point just goes to show how much damage that these people do when they call themselves Catholics when they are not. This has nothing to do with patents or copyrights. The rights of the Catholic Church come from Jesus Christ who founded her, not from any civil government.

 

[stbruno]

Check out 1Timothy3:8-13
Similarly, deacons must be dignified,not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain, holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. Moreever, they should be tested first’ then, if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. Deacons may be married only once and must manage their children and their households well. Thus thos who serve well much confidence in their faith in Christ Jesus.

There is a passage that includes Women, similarly should be dignified not slanderers but temperate and faithful in everything.

My commentary says: Women, this seems to refer to wives of deacons.

My wife who also went through all the academics as I prepared for the diaconate says: What woman wants to make a promise of “obedience” to her bishop like we deacons must! Forget it she says!

 

[FrRobSST]

tuopaolo:

The Orthodox and so-called Old Catholics are not Catholics. They are schismatics and heretics (the Old Catholics for example deny papal infallibility). Only those in communion with Rome are Catholics. The Catholic Church does not recognize the Orthodox as Catholics. Your confusion about this point just goes to show how much damage that these people do when they call themselves Catholics when they are not. This has nothing to do with patents or copyrights. The rights of the Catholic Church come from Jesus Christ who founded her, not from any civil government.

Jesus founded the Catholic Church. He did not personally found the See of Rome. The See of Rome was founded by Peter, just like the See of Antioch was. There are some scholars who maintain that Peter was arrested before entering Rome, thus never becoming the Bishop there. I happen to strongly disagree with that, BTW, but it’s a thought that has been out there for some time.

What it amounts to, however, is the largest group writing the history from their perspective. The Orthodox have a differing perspective. What makes them wrong and you right? I am not willing to play along with such a game.

Everyone has their perspectives, and I can live with that. I disagree with your position, but I respect that you hold it. I happen to believe that being Catholic is far more open that being in Communion with Rome. I don’t plan to change that point of view, nor do I plan to decieve people. I identify myself as a Primitive Catholic,and I tell people exactly where I stand when asked. It would be different if I tried to pass myself off as a Catholic on Communion with Rome. I don’t, I won’t.

Rob+

 

[FrRobSST]

tuopaolo:

Um, even if Rome recognizes Fr Rob’s orders as valid, that doesn’t make him a Catholic priest. Thus if as I understand it Fr Rob is not a Catholic priest, then it is misleading and deceptive for him to present himself as a Catholic priest.

How would you propose I identify myself? I find the title Reverend to be highly offensive, and I use no address or title other than Father. I am a member of a religious order, the Society of Saint Timothy, and am under the vows of that society. My name is Robert Lyons. Thus, Father Robert Lyons, SST.

We prefer the term Presbyter because both presbyter and episcopate participate in what in latin is termed the sacredote (priesthood), though we don’t exclude the use of the word Priest as a descriptor of the second major order.

I’ve identified myself over and over again as not being in communion with Rome, but I will not change my title. Would you challenge an Eastern Orthodox priest in such a way? Or an Oriental Orthodox? Heck, I have a friend at the local LCMS seminary who is in the High Church movement. They call their pastors Father.

Rob+

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

gelsbern:

Wow, I had no clue you had more authority than Rome who does indeed recognize Fr. Rob’s orders as valid. It must be hard to be you with all that reponsibility. All hail Pope Pariah Pirana

Any documented proof that “Rome” recognizes the group he belongs to as being part of the Catholic Church?

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

FrRobSST:

How would you propose I identify myself? I find the title Reverend to be highly offensive, and I use no address or title other than Father. I am a member of a religious order, the Society of Saint Timothy, and am under the vows of that society. My name is Robert Lyons. Thus, Father Robert Lyons, SST.

We prefer the term Presbyter because both presbyter and episcopate participate in what in latin is termed the sacredote (priesthood), though we don’t exclude the use of the word Priest as a descriptor of the second major order.

I’ve identified myself over and over again as not being in communion with Rome, but I will not change my title. Would you challenge an Eastern Orthodox priest in such a way? Or an Oriental Orthodox? Heck, I have a friend at the local LCMS seminary who is in the High Church movement. They call their pastors Father.

Rob+

Ummmm, how about “Robert Lyons” or just use a nickname – how about “The Presbyter?” While you may find both to be incomplete or offensive, they don’t compare to the irratation people feel for a Protestant like yourself who titles himself as “father” on a Catholic forum.

FWIW, I would be offended if an LCMS minister referred to himself as “father” on this forum as well. The Orthodox are different. They have valid orders (as acknowledged by the Catholic Church) so they are free to call themselves “father.”

His Beatitute Pariah Pirana, ABC
Patriarch of Momo’s Coffee House and Bakery
Prehistoric Catholic Church

 

[Ann_Cheryl]

Pariah Pirana:

That’s an extremely ignorant statement. The Holy Cross Fathers are the spirutal heads of Notre Dame. Not some secular, tenured professor like McBrien.

The priest you quote does not wear religious garb which speaks volumns about him.

Why is it you must make personnel attacks? You may not like Father McBrien but he is a priest and should be treated with respect. You do not like what I say and it might be ignorant but “extremely” is just an uncharitable attack.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

tuopaolo:

The Orthodox and so-called Old Catholics are not Catholics. They are schismatics and heretics (the Old Catholics for example deny papal infallibility). Only those in communion with Rome are Catholics. The Catholic Church does not recognize the Orthodox as Catholics. Your confusion about this point just goes to show how much damage that these people do when they call themselves Catholics when they are not. This has nothing to do with patents or copyrights. The rights of the Catholic Church come from Jesus Christ who founded her, not from any civil government.

Sorry, sorry, I meant that their orders are valid, they have the same sacraments. I’m not confused, I mispoke. AND the point is that WE believe we alone are Catholic. THEY would give us an argument. I’m not saying they’re right, I’m saying the clergyman’s use of the term is not without precedent and we should speak to him respectfully. We do not, for example, treat Father Ambrose badly when he posts here, because he’s a priest. Nor do I think most people would treat an Anglican priest badly should he elect to post here.

 

[tuopaolo]

FrRobSST:

How would you propose I identify myself?

How about you just put in your signature: “While I consider myself to be a Catholic priest, the See of Peter does not recognize me as a Catholic priest.”

I wasn’t challenging your use of the title “Father” but rather your describing yourself as a Catholic priest. It gives your posts authority as that of a Catholic priest when in fact you are not a Catholic priest.