Women as lectors

[Dicerning]

I have talked to a deacon friend of mine (he has been a deacon for 30 years).

He told me that entertaining the idea of Female Lectors would be very damaging to our already fragile relations with the Eastern Church and our newly formed relationship with the Lefebvrists. (sp)

 

[student_of_God]

Bravo Bravo

 

[scylla]

I have talked to a deacon friend of mine (he has been a deacon for 30 years).

He told me that entertaining the idea of Female Lectors would be very damaging to our already fragile relations with the Eastern Church and our newly formed relationship with the Lefebvrists. (sp)

There are many in our Church who do not want re-union with other groups especially if they would object to these sort of things. The thinking is to just loosen up the Church to accept everything and then it really doesn’t matter if you are Catholic or not. It is all part of the same mentality that seeks to conform the Church to the current cultural values that look to man as the center of the faith.

The Eastern Church or Lefebvrists are too old fashioned for the mindset which promotes putting human desires first, so it really isn’t a concern, any reunion would harm the desire to change the Church. There is very little to no desire to seek union with these groups by people who promote women’s ordination, they seek to put their desires first, not faithfulness to the Catholic Church.

Now there are many Bishops who have dioceses well staffed with pro-womens ordination folk who influence them and push them to be lax and seek ways to appease their desires.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Aramis]

I have talked to a deacon friend of mine (he has been a deacon for 30 years).

He told me that entertaining the idea of Female Lectors would be very damaging to our already fragile relations with the Eastern Church and our newly formed relationship with the Lefebvrists. (sp)

Oddly enough, the Eastern Orthodox have female lay cantors, female lay readers, and ordained Deaconesses. There is no need for institution/ordinations-minor save to displace lay persons out of the ministries of Reader and Cantor. It might even smooth over a few issues for the Catholics to reinstitute the order of Deaconesses.

Due to the current ban, we’re not allowed to discuss the SSPX repercussions.

 

[Dicerning]

Oddly enough, the Eastern Orthodox have female lay cantors, female lay readers, and ordained Deaconesses. There is no need for institution/ordinations-minor save to displace lay persons out of the ministries of Reader and Cantor. It might even smooth over a few issues for the Catholics to reinstitute the order of Deaconesses.

Due to the current ban, we’re not allowed to discuss the SSPX repercussions.

Deaconesses (women) and Deacons (men) in the Eastern Church function very differently. In fact I would use the phrase Apples and Oranges.

Since you use the world re-institute, could you please provide me with some evidence that women were every ordained to Holy orders in the Latin Church?

 

[Moyle]

Oddly enough, the Eastern Orthodox have female lay cantors, female lay readers, and ordained Deaconesses. There is no need for institution/ordinations-minor save to displace lay persons out of the ministries of Reader and Cantor. It might even smooth over a few issues for the Catholics to reinstitute the order of Deaconesses.

Due to the current ban, we’re not allowed to discuss the SSPX repercussions.

You sure they have ORDAINED deaconesses? I rather doubt that as no women can even go behind their iconostasis (enter their sanctuaries.)

 

[Moyle]

There is no reason to open the institution of lector to females. They can already perform the same duties as commissioned readers. It’s not a part of the path of ordination for women as women cannot be ordained.

Given these facts, I wonder why anyone would even propose it? The first things that come to my mind are extremely negative.

If the institution were open to women I believe we would see a FLOOD of instituted lectors. I believe by far the biggest reason more men are not instituted today is that it would quickly make commissioned readers, more specifically commissioned FEMALE readers a thing of the past.

If the Church allowed women to be instituted as lectors, I am sure the next point of pressure would be allowing women to be installed as acolytes.

I try to be moderate about things but I would view both as pure politics of the worst kind.

 

[Moyle]

You know there are a lot of very poorly performing readers, EMsHC and altar servers out there. I’m not sure why the perform so poorly – likely due to: poor or no training; poor catechesis and/or the fact that such ministries often attract the wrong sort of person or any number of other reasons.

Just imagine if these people were INSTITUTED for life. Without a serious and on-going formation, this would be a plague to the Church, at least in the USA.

I have long heard that at least one of the reasons considered for abolishing the sub-diaconate and porter is because these positions were often “rewarded” to the wrong types of men.

I hope the Church is very careful here.

 

[CradleCath]

There is no reason to open the institution of lector to females. They can already perform the same duties as commissioned readers. It’s not a part of the path of ordination for women as women cannot be ordained.

Given these facts, I wonder why anyone would even propose it? The first things that come to my mind are extremely negative.

If the institution were open to women I believe we would see a FLOOD of instituted lectors. I believe by far the biggest reason more men are not instituted today is that it would quickly make commissioned readers, more specifically commissioned FEMALE readers a thing of the past.

If the Church allowed women to be instituted as lectors, I am sure the next point of pressure would be allowing women to be installed as acolytes.

I try to be moderate about things but I would view both as pure politics of the worst kind.

As do I & I am a woman. Personally, I’d prefer to do away with all lay ministries. These duties & titles are often sought for the wrong reasons. I deplore the blending of the clergy & the laity. We each have roles & vocations & fulfilling them to the best of our ability takes plenty of effort.

The best service that a woman can give to her Church is to:

1. enter a traditional religious order & give her life to serving God through serving others…
2. Become a Catholic Wife & Mother.
   As far as I’m concerned there is enough " power & influence" in fulfilling either of these ministries WELL.

 

[Katholikos33]

I"n accordance with the ancient tradition of the Church, institution to the ministries of Lector (reader) and acolyte is reserved to men." -Pope Paul VI, in His Motu Propio Ministeria Queaedam.

 

[ChemicalBean]

You know there are a lot of very poorly performing readers, EMsHC and altar servers out there. I’m not sure why the perform so poorly – likely due to: poor or no training; poor catechesis and/or the fact that such ministries often attract the wrong sort of person or any number of other reasons.

Just imagine if these people were INSTITUTED for life. Without a serious and on-going formation, this would be a plague to the Church, at least in the USA.

I have long heard that at least one of the reasons considered for abolishing the sub-diaconate and porter is because these positions were often “rewarded” to the wrong types of men.

I hope the Church is very careful here.

I would agree with you - I hope the Church is very careful. But that’s just it. I think this is an opportunity, a time for hope!

The Church traditionally is very careful about selecting/instituting/consecrating people for ministry, and this would mean that a more standardized process of formation would be offered to those who would be lectors, instead of the hodge-podge that we have from diocese to diocese and even within the same parish.

Along the same line of thinking, it would also mean that the bishops of a national conference would need to get together and agree on how they want to handle a mobile lay population who would be permanently “charged” with some of the Church’s (and their) authority.

People would still be temporarily “deputized” as readers, especially while in training, but in time this would weed out or re-train those unsuitable for it (especially those who have done it for forever, and are just plain awful, yet nobody wants to step on their toes.)

The more people there are in a parish who have graduated from an official lay formation program and have been instituted, the more resources will there be available for better catechesis and more pleasant liturgies - and not just Mass, but things like the Liturgy of the Hours.

 

[Aramis]

You sure they have ORDAINED deaconesses? I rather doubt that as no women can even go behind their iconostasis (enter their sanctuaries.)

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3562182&postcount=5

and also to the Apostolic Canons, which discuss the ordination and requirements therefor. (Don’t have a handy link, sorry.)

The Eastern Orthodox Deaconesses ARE behind the Iconostas, and are Ordained, according to several articles on-line, including some from Orthodox sources.

The Coptic Orthodox, however, institute Deaconesses, and their ministry is entirely extra-liturgical.

The Apostolic Constitutions refer to deaconesses as ordained, using the term used for major orders, and placed them in the liturgy standing between the deacons and the subdeacons.

So, Ordained, absolutely. Major Order? Probably but not certainly. Biblical? vaguely, in that Phoebe is called diakonos… (See the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia: Deaconess

 

[Dicerning]

There is a question at the bottom of the post.

I would agree with you - I hope the Church is very careful. But that’s just it. I think this is an opportunity, a time for hope!

The Church traditionally is very careful about selecting/instituting/consecrating people for ministry, and this would mean that a more standardized process of formation would be offered to those who would be lectors, instead of the hodge-podge that we have from diocese to diocese and even within the same parish.

I am not sure what you mean here. The church already does have a standardized process for the institution of minor orders and ordination. you do realize that Lectors have been around for a long long long time. Right? The institution of Lector is far from being some new thing that needs a standardized process.

Along the same line of thinking, it would also mean that the bishops of a national conference would need to get together and agree on how they want to handle a mobile lay population who would be permanently “charged” with some of the Church’s (and their) authority.

Authority? You need to read up on what a Lector and Acolyte are.

People would still be temporarily “deputized” as readers, especially while in training, but in time this would weed out or re-train those unsuitable for it (especially those who have done it for forever, and are just plain awful, yet nobody wants to step on their toes.)

Hmm sounds like an exalted view of a minor role in the church. I guess some people have visions of sugar plums dancing in their heads when they hear of news like this and start to extrapolate somthing out to more than what it really is.

The morople there are in a parish who have graduated from an official lay formation program and have been instituted, the more resources will there be available for better catechesis and more pleasant liturgies - and not just Mass, but things like the Liturgy of the Hours.

Sounds like you have a great idea selecting and insitituting people into this role. I do wonder about you assumption of a position of authority and how being a lector would play part in that…which makes one more concerned about agendas of some in relation to roles in the church…

Ok Ok Now let me ask you this…

Will you support your ideas listed above if the pope (which is very likely) denies the request? Wouldn’t your ideas above come to very good use even when the pope denies the request. If so perhaps you should be vocal about it…having instituted Lectors (even if it is only men) would be…in your words…better and would make for more pleasant liturgies.

Why don’t we use your ideas listed above RIGHT NOW with the selection of men into the role of lector in the church??? Why haven’t we done it for 30 years?

 

[Biblioassistant]

I’m a reader, or I should say I was a reader. I don’t do it much anymore since the new translation of the NAB makes my teeth hurt.
I’m a good reader if I do say so myself. I try to become transparent so there is nothing but the words. I am NOT a performer, and I am not a showoff - I try to avoid being overdramatic, but I don’t drone either. If only we could use the RSVC. Sigh.

Just being ordained does not make one a good lector. Our deacon (bless his heart) is one of the poorest readers evah.

 

[Dicerning]

The more people there are in a parish who have graduated from an official lay formation program and have been instituted, the more resources will there be available for better catechesis and more pleasant liturgies - and not just Mass, but things like the Liturgy of the Hours.

On one final note.

requiring people to graduate from a lay ministry program is not realistic.

I am the only person in my parish for the last 10 years to even enroll in the ministry formatio program. I am one of 10 people in my deanery in the last few years. Asking someone to attend 2 years of rubbish to be a glorified reader in church is too much.

 

[Phemie]

On one final note.

requiring people to graduate from a lay ministry program is not realistic.

I am the only person in my parish for the last 10 years to even enroll in the ministry formatio program. I am one of 10 people in my deanery in the last few years. Asking someone to attend 2 years of rubbish to be a glorified reader in church is too much.

Which is why there is unlikely to be a rush of people coming forward to become instituted lectors. We just need to do a better job of forming the people we have as readers and providing ongoing formation for them. Whether that’s at the diocesan level or developed by the diocese and implemented at the parish level doesn’t matter (except perhaps for our diocese and others like us where coming to the diocesan offices for training involves flying and mucho bucks).

I’ve been a reader in about 10 different parishes and in most the only training involved showing me where the ambo was and telling me when to show up.

 

[Moyle]

The position of Acolytes in our parish is called Masters of Ceremony mostly young women. The lectors are three to one female.

My husband came home and told me that one of the RCIA leaders made the comment that at one time women were not allowed at the altar. DH said he wanted to tell her they still should not be allowed to do so. Bravo DH.

Women cannot be instituted as acolytes. The position of ALTAR SERVER is called “Master of Ceremony” in your parish.

I’m fairly sure a woman could be an MC as there is no limitation to men only. This is not true of acolyte.

 

[Moyle]

On one final note.

requiring people to graduate from a lay ministry program is not realistic.

I am the only person in my parish for the last 10 years to even enroll in the ministry formatio program. I am one of 10 people in my deanery in the last few years. Asking someone to attend 2 years of rubbish to be a glorified reader in church is too much.

Not when they are instituted for LIFE. Two years seems very reasonable.

Maybe your ministry formation needs to be de-trashed?

 

[Moyle]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3562182&postcount=5

and also to the Apostolic Canons, which discuss the ordination and requirements therefor. (Don’t have a handy link, sorry.)

The Eastern Orthodox Deaconesses ARE behind the Iconostas, and are Ordained, according to several articles on-line, including some from Orthodox sources.

The Coptic Orthodox, however, institute Deaconesses, and their ministry is entirely extra-liturgical.

The Apostolic Constitutions refer to deaconesses as ordained, using the term used for major orders, and placed them in the liturgy standing between the deacons and the subdeacons.

So, Ordained, absolutely. Major Order? Probably but not certainly. Biblical? vaguely, in that Phoebe is called diakonos… (See the entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia: Deaconess

I’m fairly certain at least the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches do not ordain women. Further, I don’t believe any women are allowed into the sanctuary during Divine Liturgy.

 

[Dicerning]

Phemie;4357355:

I’ve been a reader in about 10 different parishes and in most the only training involved showing me where the ambo was and telling me when to show up.

Well then perhaps the synod should have asked for Guidelines in training for readers instead of opening up a can of worms.

Instituting laypersons who are not on the track of ordination. to the lectorate is like me allowing my 4 year old son" help" me change the oil in our car. It makes him feel better but it serves no purpose.

The protestantization continues.