Women as lectors

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Yes, that does help and I followed your post wonderfully and understand.

Now, my question: Once Lector and Acolyte were open to Lay Persons… then did it become at this discretion of the Dioese whether it would be open to men only or women and men?

Thanks, Dana

And to add a note: I would like to be a Lector, however, something keeps me from speaking up. I would also like to be a EMHC, because I know my personal reverence to the Blessed Sacrament and that I would dress very modestly, be a witness to my reverence and humility that is taught by the Church, however, once again, something keeps me from speaking up. I
Y’all are confounding Lay Readers with Lectors. They are NOT the same. (GIRM)

The Ministry of Lector is STILL restricted to men. Lay Readers may fill in for Instituted Lectors if there are none. When a Lector is present, they should be the ones to read the two readings.

Likewise, Acolytes vs Servers. All Acolytes are men instituted to the minor order of Acolyte, and are thus expected to serve at the Altar. Lay servers, male and female, may perform many of the duties (but not all of the duties) of an Acolyte, but ARE NOT ACOLYTES.

Institution of Women to Minor Orders could very well be a move toward the resurrection of the Order of Deaconesses; don’t count on it, however.
 
Can you point to the document from Vatican II where this was addressed? I have always thought that alter servers and the use of boys only was a Canon Law issue not a council one?
The new canon law comes from the council. The council addressed the overarching principles, and then the code commission had to implement those principles in the new canon law. That discrimination based on sex is wrong is directly addressed in Gaudium et Spes 29, but a better use of the gifts of all the people of God is an important theme of the document overall.

The code commission responded to this document by consciously and deliberately removing instances of discrimination in the 1918 code. The code commission’s change to canon 230 §2 (the canon that allowed altar girls) was a part of this implementation of the Vatican II council in the Church’s canon law.

I recommend reading From Vision to Legislation: From the Council to a Code of Laws (Pere Marquette Theology Lecture) by Ladislas M. Orsy (see here) for more insight on the overall relation between the code and the council.
 
Reply:

I agree with what you said, however when is the last time you saw an acolyte? As a very active life long Catholic, I’m not sure that I ever have:rolleyes: I wonder why?

God’s continued Blessings, PJM m.c.
Last week’s Catholic Anchor, the newspaper of the Archdiocese of Anchorage. (distributed by the Anchorage Daily News.) 7 men instituted as transitional acolytes toward the Deaconate. At any given point, the Archdiocese of Anchorage usually has some.
 
Y’all are confounding Lay Readers with Lectors. They are NOT the same. (GIRM)

The Ministry of Lector is STILL restricted to men. Lay Readers may fill in for Instituted Lectors if there are none. When a Lector is present, they should be the ones to read the two readings.

Likewise, Acolytes vs Servers. All Acolytes are men instituted to the minor order of Acolyte, and are thus expected to serve at the Altar. Lay servers, male and female, may perform many of the duties (but not all of the duties) of an Acolyte, but ARE NOT ACOLYTES.

Institution of Women to Minor Orders could very well be a move toward the resurrection of the Order of Deaconesses; don’t count on it, however.
Got ya! 👍 Thanks! I have learned something today.
 
I think it is an appropriate response to a liturgical reality that those who read and proclaim the scriptures aloud are lay people - men and women. This, I think, by the natural design of the liturgy is how it should be. It is truly right and proper that those who are called to and perform this important ministry be formally instituted as Lectors.
So my question to you then why hasn’t Bishop H in your arch- diocese already done some institutions of male lectors?

The institution of the Lectorate to non-holy order seeking laity has been around since the early 1970s. Could you please give me a reason why not a single person in your Archdiocese has not been instituted other than those who are deacons and seminarians? I have a really really good hunch as to why!
 
Raise your hand anyone here who has Intituted Lectors in their diocese… Lincoln, stop showing off 😃 Since most dioceses don’t institute lectors now, it means that in most parishes men and women readers are perfectly equal. .
All dioceses institute Lectors. At least ones that have permanent deacons and seminarians.

Raising my hand right now. I will be a lector in 1 years time. Not a permanent Lector that is.

Again it is better to revise this. The more I think about it the more I realize that it would be better for me and others recieving holy orders to get instituted at our ordination and permanent Lectors done away with.
 
All dioceses institute Lectors. At least ones that have permanent deacons and seminarians.

Raising my hand right now. I will be a lector in 1 years time. Not a permanent Lector that is.

Again it is better to revise this. The more I think about it the more I realize that it would be better for me and others recieving holy orders to get instituted at our ordination and permanent Lectors done away with.
I guess I should have said permanent Lectors. Heck our diocese doesn’t even train permanent deacons what odds that we’re going to get permanent Lectors and Acolytes.
 
It would seem that since the role of lector and reader is exactly the same, the Church could do the faithful a great service by removing the artificial distinction. If the dioceses and parishes worked hard to recruit, train, and prayerfully discern good lectors, this would greatly stabilize and improve liturgy.
GREAT!! then we agree that IF the pope says NO WAY that we should start spitting male lectors out like crazy anyway RIGHT??? RIGHT???
consider that those who know they have been called to do something all along, and are now officially recognized for it, and are even given the resources to do it well, are probably going to do it fabulously and will also be much more pleasant to deal with. .
THis is EXACTLY why I ask you this very question…Why has your arch-diocese not instituted a single “permanent” lector?

The insititution has been availible and existed for 35 years right there in your arch diocese…why pray tell has not Bishop H or his predecessors Bishop D etc… instituted a single layperson as Lector???

You know the answer.
If this is approved would you be willing to bet that the Non-institution of lectors continues?

Certainly you would agree that such a wonderful recognition of instituting people for such a ministry shouldnt go to waste. Even if the pope says no to women lectors…half of the laity could be availible for this wonderful ministry that has been ignored for over 30 years.
 
As a Catholic-to-be in RCIA, I’ve been reading these boards a bit and seeing threads against girls and women serving in the mass, as altar servers and now threads like this about women lectors. Even as cantors!

I can’t seem to make any of the arguments against these things make sense to me. What I keep coming back to is that, in Mass, every week the Prayers of the Faithful ends with a prayer to inspire more of the youth to be inspired toward vocations as priests, sisters, and brothers. So, there’s a call to vocations in all these areas. Not only for priests and brothers. I don’t see how participation by girls and women in mass could detract from rather than enhance, that inspiration to consider a vocation as a sister. And I don’t understand how it could be misleading in any way, as someone in this thread commented earlier. In the case of lectors, they read the scripture and do not give the homily, correct?
 
As a Catholic-to-be in RCIA, I’ve been reading these boards a bit and seeing threads against girls and women serving in the mass, as altar servers and now threads like this about women lectors. Even as cantors!

I can’t seem to make any of the arguments against these things make sense to me. What I keep coming back to is that, in Mass, every week the Prayers of the Faithful ends with a prayer to inspire more of the youth to be inspired toward vocations as priests, sisters, and brothers. So, there’s a call to vocations in all these areas. Not only for priests and brothers. I don’t see how participation by girls and women in mass could detract from rather than enhance, that inspiration to consider a vocation as a sister. And I don’t understand how it could be misleading in any way, as someone in this thread commented earlier. In the case of lectors, they read the scripture and do not give the homily, correct?
I started this thread. I would like to point out right now that I think women do just as good a job at reading as men…in some cases better…in others worse. The point of the thread has nothing to do allowing women to read. it is about the confusion of instituting women into an ancient office of the church that was considered a minor order of the PRIESTHOOD. my initial point was to do away with the institution of Lectors for laity (right now that means no more lay men becoming lectors unless they are on track for holy orders)

By doing so any arguments about this would end.

In reality this institution doesn’ exist anyway because almost everywhere permanent lectors and acolytes don’t exist. The role has been completely and totally swept under the rug of the last 30+ years and we all know why.

I say do away with it.
 
I guess I’m not aware of what the role of permanent Lector historically involved other than what you said about it being a minor order of the priestood. Or why today women reading scripture should have caused arguments or confusion at all. Traditions with a capital T can’t change, but traditions can, right?

Am I just confused here about the role perhaps? Is the lector (or Permanent Lector) is actually a separate position from whoever just does the Old Testament and New Testament readings, or is it the same thing?

At any rate, I’m glad that girls and women can and do have roles in the Mass, and hope not to see that changed or limited.
 
I guess I’m not aware of what the role of permanent Lector historically involved other than what you said about it being a minor order of the priestood. Or why today women reading scripture should have caused arguments or confusion at all. Traditions with a capital T can’t change, but traditions can, right?

Am I just confused here about the role perhaps? Is the lector (or Permanent Lector) is actually a separate position from whoever just does the Old Testament and New Testament readings?

At any rate, I’m just glad that girls and women can and do have roles in the Mass, and hope not to see that changed or limited.
They can and should have roles. Which is why I think the office of Lector and acolyte should be only for those on the road to ordination. It settles and disagreement.
 
Ok, I think I’m getting clearer on what you’re saying…the disagreements seem to do with just basic terminology. Reserving the term Lector and acolyte for those seeking ordination, and if it’s lay people filling the roles they would be called readers and altar servers.

That would definitely clarify things.

Sounds fine to me, as long as the roles of reader and altar server are always available as well 🙂
 
Ok, I think I’m getting clearer on what you’re saying…the disagreements seem to do with just basic terminology. Reserving the term Lector and acolyte for those seeking ordination, and if it’s lay people filling the roles they would be called readers and altar servers.

That would definitely clarify things.

Sounds fine to me, as long as the roles of reader and altar server are always available as well 🙂
If there is an instituted Lector present he is supposed to read instead of any scheduled reader. If there is an intituted acolyte present he is the EMCH if one is needed. In the same way, if there is a Deacon present he carries the Book of Gospel in procession, he reads the Gospel and reads the intentions for the Prayers of the Faithful.

Just to make it clear, if you have a couple of instituted lectors in the parish it is their ministry to read the scriptures and if they are present it should not be done by anyone else. I have no problem with that – would that that would come to pass. And no, I have no problem with women readers, I are one. But if we had someone who was committed enough to do the formation necessary for the ministry I would be delighted to have him serve my parish.
 
They can and should have roles. Which is why I think the office of Lector and acolyte should be only for those on the road to ordination. It settles and disagreement.
👍 👍

There are so many ways that men and/or women can serve Holy Mother church. The sad fact is we have blended so many positions that the majority IMHO of people don’t have any idea what is involved in many of the positions.
 
Ok, I think I’m getting clearer on what you’re saying…the disagreements seem to do with just basic terminology. Reserving the term Lector and acolyte for those seeking ordination, and if it’s lay people filling the roles they would be called readers and altar servers.

That would definitely clarify things.

Sounds fine to me, as long as the roles of reader and altar server are always available as well 🙂
You got it. 👍
 
Thanks for letting me know about all of this! Basically, then, I’m generally in favor of not having permanent positions when it prevents the laity (women included) from participating in Mass.

And coming from a background where there really aren’t such prohibitions against women, I also can’t begin to take issue with women being part of the Lectors. Especialy if it’s decided that it isn’t prohibited.

Again, thank you all for helping to teach me more about the Church and how it all works! I’m looking forward to becoming involved!

Erm…I think tomorrow there’s supposed to be an event highlighting parish activities. Hopefully that won’t get rained out! They want to get me involved in choir, but I’m not sure about doing that yet. Maybe… 🙂
 
As a Catholic-to-be in RCIA, I’ve been reading these boards a bit and seeing threads against girls and women serving in the mass, as altar servers and now threads like this about women lectors. Even as cantors!

I can’t seem to make any of the arguments against these things make sense to me.
The issue is that, until the Second Vatican Council (V II), the minor orders were “ordained”, and only men were “ordained”. That major orders were ordained with the laying on of hands, and minor orders by acclimation, vesting, and instrumenting (being given their tools).

At one point, in the history of the church, to read the epistle in public, one had to have been ordained a lector. Since every subdeacon was also a lector, subdeacons also could read the epistle in public, and further, it was normal for them to do so during mass. Likewise, only subdeacons were permitted to read the Gospels publicly, and by virtue of having been ordained a subdeacon first, all deacons could read both the epistle and the gospel. Likewise, every priest was ordained a lector, subdeacon and deacon, as well as priest, and might do either.

(In fact, subdeacons were “ordained” into 4 orders: Porter, Exorcist, Lector, Acolyte. In the Eastern Catholic Churches, most still ordain lectors, acolytes and subdeacons. Rome retained only lector and acolyte, and in roman use, the subdeacon had no roles not permitted to either lector nor acolyte.)

But women are not valid subjects for priestly ordination; that is Dogma. Tradition, even with the Capital T, can be wrong, but defined dogma is not, as it may not change, ever. Women were ordained to the order of the deaconess; we do not know if they also were ordained to the lector or acolyte orders minor.

Any church that has women as priests is no longer catholic, having rejected defined dogma.

Women as deacons, that’s iffy… we do not know which form of ordination was used with certainty, but it appears that either form might have been used.

Since V II, only the form with the laying on of hands is called Ordination; the former minor orders no longer make one a cleric, and no longer are referred to as entry by being ordained, but instead by being installed. It is a return to the greek and latin terms, which are different, but both are translated into English as Ordination…

I, personally, see no issue with women being installed into the order of Lector. It will be controversial, however, as it would appear to be an appeasement to the Womenpriests movement (heretics that they are). Acolyte, traditionally the last of the Roman minor orders prior to Subdeacon (considered a major order in the Roman Church until V II) also was almost always conferred on men aiming for the deaconate or priesthood. And that is the issue… it appears to put them on the road to the priesthood, and females as priests is against dogma, and thus is heresy.
 
Ok, I think I’m getting clearer on what you’re saying…the disagreements seem to do with just basic terminology. Reserving the term Lector and acolyte for those seeking ordination, and if it’s lay people filling the roles they would be called readers and altar servers.

That would definitely clarify things.

Sounds fine to me, as long as the roles of reader and altar server are always available as well 🙂
That is the terminology defined by Rome. Locals have misused the terms Lector and Acolyte often.
 
Looks like the world synod of bishops has asked the vatican to open up the former minor priestly order of Lector to Women.
I have searched in vain for this. Where is being reported? Not even the ultra-left National Catholic Reporter has reported this. And they would be overjoyed about this.

Please provide a link to a REPUTABLE news agency that is reporting this. Gossip mongering blogs do not count as reputable news agencies. I have yet to hear any blog that accurately reports the news.
 
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