Women as priests

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I’m female, as it turns out. 😉

I’ll tell you a secret: I’ve got more power (defined as, the ability to accomplish my goals in freedom and with the respect of others) as a lay Catholic woman than I ever did as an Elder in a liberal Protestant church. 😃
LOL…the minute I posted that I said to myself…sure enough it will turn out to be a woman who posted. It’s my experience that the one’s who yell loudest about women in positions of authority in any church are women. They usually cite me to Paul and believe their husbands are the ruler

Having never been in an protestant church I cannot evaluate your other statement. I’m sure its true. I don’t think it has any argumentative strength here, there being innumerable factors that would have to be addressed to see a direct corrolation if there were one.

As I said before, I personally have no interest in whether women become priests or not. I’m sorry for those women who would like to be, and I don’t think there is biblical evidence to support it, rather the opposite, and beyond that, everyone may of course wish what they wish.
 
LOL…the minute I posted that I said to myself…sure enough it will turn out to be a woman who posted. It’s my experience that the one’s who yell loudest about women in positions of authority in any church are women. They usually cite me to Paul and believe their husbands are the ruler

Having never been in an protestant church I cannot evaluate your other statement. I’m sure its true. I don’t think it has any argumentative strength here, there being innumerable factors that would have to be addressed to see a direct corrolation if there were one.

As I said before, I personally have no interest in whether women become priests or not. I’m sorry for those women who would like to be, and I don’t think there is biblical evidence to support it, rather the opposite, and beyond that, everyone may of course wish what they wish.
The difference is that the Catholic Church is hierarchical, meaning that, once I am given a task to do, it’s mine to do in the way that I see best.

Nobody can step in and change the rules on me, the way they can in an “everyone has equal authority” set-up, where anyone can step in and “help” if they think someone is doing something the “wrong” way.

Hierarchies are male for a reason - women (even those who think they want to be in charge) don’t really want to be in charge. The first thing most women do, as soon as they get any real authority where they have nobody but God to report to, is give it away by making everyone “equal.” :rolleyes:

I’ve seen this so many times that it makes me want to weep, but it seems to be exactly how we are wired - we hate having sole responsibility - we seem to prefer to be “second in command” - the do-er; not the enforcer.
 
jmcrae;2850738 said:
Who said I was speaking for God? I clearly stated IMO, which means “in my opinion”. What I have stated is my opinion, not God’s, not anybody else’s.

I freely acknowledge, I may be totally in left field with my thoughts. I constantly ask God for guidance in understanding him and on how he expects us to conduct ourselves. If I am wrong with my thoughts and assumptions, then I hope God will provide the wisdom and guidance to change them. Until then…
 
Hierarchies are male for a reason - women (even those who think they want to be in charge) don’t really want to be in charge. The first thing most women do, as soon as they get any real authority where they have nobody but God to report to, is give it away by making everyone “equal.” :rolleyes:

I’ve seen this so many times that it makes me want to weep, but it seems to be exactly how we are wired - we hate having sole responsibility - we seem to prefer to be “second in command” - the do-er; not the enforcer.
You do your gender a disservice by talking like that.

Oh boy, my wife would very much disagree with you, as would many other women. For instance, I’m retired from the military and still work with them on a daily basis. There are many female leaders in the armed forces who do a splendid job in leadership roles.

While I’m sure there many women who relish the “2nd in command role”, and there is nothing wrong with that, many are very good at taking the lead. You might want to rethink your comment.
 
You do your gender a disservice by talking like that.

Oh boy, my wife would very much disagree with you, as would many other women. For instance, I’m retired from the military and still work with them on a daily basis. There are many female leaders in the armed forces who do a splendid job in leadership roles.

While I’m sure there many women who relish the “2nd in command role”, and there is nothing wrong with that, many are very good at taking the lead. You might want to rethink your comment.
I found the comment right on. Military is very structured in a less structured environment you will find that women will do exactly what she said they do. I watched this happen in our parish and it was not for the good.
 
The difference is that the Catholic Church is hierarchical, meaning that, once I am given a task to do, it’s mine to do in the way that I see best.

Nobody can step in and change the rules on me, the way they can in an “everyone has equal authority” set-up, where anyone can step in and “help” if they think someone is doing something the “wrong” way.

Hierarchies are male for a reason - women (even those who think they want to be in charge) don’t really want to be in charge. The first thing most women do, as soon as they get any real authority where they have nobody but God to report to, is give it away by making everyone “equal.” :rolleyes:

I’ve seen this so many times that it makes me want to weep, but it seems to be exactly how we are wired - we hate having sole responsibility - we seem to prefer to be “second in command” - the do-er; not the enforcer.
well this is a real revelation to me…I guess I worked for the wrong women. My boss was a lawyer and she never shared any power with me or anybody. And all the judges I practiced in front of who were women, they seemed to not give any away either. You think all our female politicians are giving away power? All the women CEO’s, those that run their own companies? How about the women prime ministers? ambassadors? What women scientists do you know who are trying to give away credit for their work? Professors giving up their tenure? All in the name of equality in mean? What papers or articles are you relying on?
 
One of the tragedies of today is the pursuit, chiefly by feminists and those duped by them, of the false feminine. It’s tragic because the chief method of pursuit seems to be the pursuit, on their part, of the false masculine, with its premium placed on power, control, etc.

Frankly, if they want it, this man says they can have it. But pray don’t come crying to me when they reap the consequences of it as if it were my fault.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
well this is a real revelation to me…I guess I worked for the wrong women. My boss was a lawyer and she never shared any power with me or anybody. And all the judges I practiced in front of who were women, they seemed to not give any away either. You think all our female politicians are giving away power? All the women CEO’s, those that run their own companies? How about the women prime ministers? ambassadors? What women scientists do you know who are trying to give away credit for their work? Professors giving up their tenure? All in the name of equality in mean? What papers or articles are you relying on?
I’m not aware that there are a whole ton of women in these positions, and I know that they are the exception to the general rule.

As for my Feminist reading, I have read the works of Dr. Marilyn Frye (The Politics of Reality, and The Wilfull Virgin), Dr. Lucy Lippard (From the Centre, and Eva Hesse), Marilyn French (The Women’s Room, and Her Mother’s Daughter) and Virginia Mollencott (Women, Men, and the Bible).

All of these four, at least, agree that women typically approach the issue of authority quite differently than men do. They even advocate the breaking down of hierarchical structures in order to facilitate greater female involvement in public society.
 
[snip]
Hierarchies are male for a reason - women (even those who think they want to be in charge) don’t really want to be in charge. The first thing most women do, as soon as they get any real authority where they have nobody but God to report to, is give it away by making everyone “equal.” :rolleyes:
[snip]
hi jmcrae and everyone,🙂

Please READ the following about women. (This has nothing to do with women becoming priests.)

INTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE
AT THE 61st SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
OF THE UNITED NATIONS ON THE PROMOTION OF GENDER EQUALITY AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF WOMEN
ADDRESS OF H.E. MSGR. CELESTINO MIGLIORE

New York
Thursday, 8 March 2007
vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2007/documents/rc_seg-st_20070308_women_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2007/documents/rc_seg-st_20070308_women_en.html

LETTER OF POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO WOMEN

From the Vatican, 29 June 1995, the Solemnity of Saints Peter and Paul.

Before all else, I wish to express my deep appreciation to the United Nations Organization for having sponsored this very significant event. The Church desires for her part to contribute to upholding the dignity, role and rights of women, not only by the specific work of the Holy See’s official Delegation to the Conference in Beijing, but also by speaking directly to the heart and mind of every woman.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html
 
hi jmcrae and everyone,🙂

Please READ the following about women. (This has nothing to do with women becoming priests.)

INTERVENTION BY THE HOLY SEE
AT THE 61st SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY
OF THE UNITED NATIONS ON THE PROMOTION OF GENDER EQUALITY AND THE EMPOWERMENT OF WOMEN
ADDRESS OF H.E. MSGR. CELESTINO MIGLIORE

New York
Thursday, 8 March 2007
vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2007/documents/rc_seg-st_20070308_women_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2007/documents/rc_seg-st_20070308_women_en.html

LETTER OF POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO WOMEN

From the Vatican, 29 June 1995, the Solemnity of Saints Peter and Paul.

Before all else, I wish to express my deep appreciation to the United Nations Organization for having sponsored this very significant event. The Church desires for her part to contribute to upholding the dignity, role and rights of women, not only by the specific work of the Holy See’s official Delegation to the Conference in Beijing, but also by speaking directly to the heart and mind of every woman.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_29061995_women_en.html
Thank you, I have read it. Yes, I agree that women have equal dignity with men. (I am a woman. I have been a Feminist.) That was not the question at issue.
 
Either way, it may not have been the question but this was my favorite from one of those links.

“That women in society must be involved in decision-making is not only right for reasons of equality, but also for the specific insights that women bring to the process. This “feminine genius” will prove most valuable, as women increasingly play major roles in the solution of the serious challenges the world is facing. Empowerment of women also means equal pay for equal work, fairness in career advancement, and equality of spouses in family rights. Likewise, it means that women who choose to be wives and mothers are protected and not penalized.”

Feminine Genius! 😃 Being a woman how can I not love it!
 
I’m not aware that there are a whole ton of women in these positions, and I know that they are the exception to the general rule.

As for my Feminist reading, I have read the works of Dr. Marilyn Frye (The Politics of Reality, and The Wilfull Virgin), Dr. Lucy Lippard (From the Centre, and Eva Hesse), Marilyn French (The Women’s Room, and Her Mother’s Daughter) and Virginia Mollencott (Women, Men, and the Bible).

All of these four, at least, agree that women typically approach the issue of authority quite differently than men do. They even advocate the breaking down of hierarchical structures in order to facilitate greater female involvement in public society.
I don’t need to read feminist books to know for a fact since I am literally a social butterfly that the women I know don’t have to break down hierarchial structures since there aren’t any in place when it comes to attending city planning meetings, voting, or corporate advancement or the private sector. Every workplace environment has freely provided a ladder for women to successfully climb at least where I have resided in my lifetime. 🙂
 
One of the tragedies of today is the pursuit, chiefly by feminists and those duped by them, of the false feminine. It’s tragic because the chief method of pursuit seems to be the pursuit, on their part, of the false masculine, with its premium placed on power, control, etc.

Frankly, if they want it, this man says they can have it. But pray don’t come crying to me when they reap the consequences of it as if it were my fault.

Blessings,

Gerry
I am not afraid to agree with you wholeheartedly, even though I am a woman. The radical feminists want to be like men and take their place. It is in their own statements. Their backgrounds often reveal dysfunctional lives. And we are reaping the consequences of it all. I see it as the devil seducing Eve (women) all over again.
 
The really sad thing about your observation about how the devil is re-tempting women is that he can lower the ante.

Eve was tempted by being told she could be like God. Today, the temptation is to be like a male. Not just any male, but a foolish man.

I recall a quotation by the late Sir Peter Ustinov. He said that in the final analysis, if a man sets out to conquer the world, then he deserves it. And, he is a fool.

Sad too is what they set aside. The feminine is utterly formidable. If you doubt it, watch any mother. Most fathers who take their job seriously find that a very humbling undertaking, and delight in the discovery.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
Either way, it may not have been the question but this was my favorite from one of those links.

*“That women in society must be involved in decision-making is not only right for reasons of equality, but also for the specific insights that women bring to the process. This “feminine genius” *will prove most valuable, as women increasingly play major roles in the solution of the serious challenges the world is facing. Empowerment of women also means equal pay for equal work, fairness in career advancement, and equality of spouses in family rights. Likewise, it means that women who choose to be wives and mothers are protected and not penalized.”

Feminine Genius! 😃 Being a woman how can I not love it!
*The Church sees in Mary the highest expression of the “feminine genius” *and she finds in her a source of constant inspiration. Mary called herself the “handmaid of the Lord” (*Lk *1:38). Through obedience to the Word of God she accepted her lofty yet not easy vocation as wife and mother in the family of Nazareth. Putting herself at God’s service, she also put herself at the service of others: a *service of love. *Precisely through this service Mary was able to experience in her life a mysterious, but authentic “reign”. It is not by chance that she is invoked as “Queen of heaven and earth”. The entire community of believers thus invokes her; many nations and peoples call upon her as their “Queen”. For her, “to reign” is to serve! Her service is “to reign”!
This seems to be the key. Equality for women should not be about power or sameness with men.
 
The really sad thing about your observation about how the devil is re-tempting women is that he can lower the ante.

Eve was tempted by being told she could be like God. Today, the temptation is to be like a male. Not just any male, but a foolish man… . .
👍 Gerry

It is a particularly modern and secular attitude to reduce life to functions and not to see the depths of nature, be it of the creation or of human nature.

No surprise if this spills over to the Mysteries of the Church and conflicts with them. When that happens, the person can realize the conflict of visions and adjust their own to the divinely revealed one and so be corrected by God’s view of things from one’s own erroneous assumptions and judgments. This is one of the many ways the Church saves us from ourselves. Protestantism, otoh, believes that individual judgment of the Church is superior and ends up in deep error which has inevitable consequences for human life down the road, as the modern functional individualism which destroys communion and ravages nature attests to when the inevitable secularism results and has full sway. Of course, it takes time to see all the consequences. Denial of a deeper level of existence below functions is quite secular.

Further, suggesting – as some here have done - that whether a priest is a man or a woman is a superficial question implies being a man or a woman is a superficial difference with regard to the Incarnation of God, and that implies being a man or a woman is a superficial difference as such. But such is a superficial understanding of human nature, the Incarnation, and so the symbolism of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, for the Church considers it a very deep question as part of Divine Revelation.

This really gets to the root of the problem, as proponents of priestesses think to point to the difference in ethnicity in the ordained as a reason to overcome the admitted Tradition of ordaining only males, namely that Our Lord chose only Jews as Apostles, but the Church did not stick to that, likewise. . .etc.

The Church is teaching, otc, that the difference between being a man or a woman goes to the heart of the Divinely-revealed Mystery of the Incarnation of God as a Man, or to put it in reverse, that the BASIC Mystery of the Incarnation is necessarily connected in fact with Our Lord choosing only men to be Apostles.

John Paul II on several occasions gave a couple of reasons why the priesthood of Christ is not an option for women, the main ones being that the priest acts ‘in persona Christe’, but also, that had women been chosen for that sacrament, Christ would have chosen His Holy Mother.

Now why don’t some find those reasons fitting? There must be something missing or skewed in their considering this as a believer for them not to get it. IOW, they can’t think theologically very well. Probably because they have this attitude that if the arguments don’t make sense to THEM, they don’t make sense! Such an attitude is a failure to admit their limitations; if that’s the case, it would stem from pride of mind, as if the arguments had to make sense to them to make sense. A humble mind would say, “Gee, the Pope just gave us a couple of leads on why the Tradition can not be reversed; maybe I should follow those leads and reflect on how they fit with ordination”.

Theologians who are doing just that, i.e., thinking with the Church, are pointing to the significance of sexuality as a deeper symbol of God’s relation to His people, because the Son (nota bene!) of God became a man and not a woman and chooses His Church to be His Bride. Now that tells us something, doesn’t it?: more clues as to the meaning of God’s choice. If these leads don’t resonate with the thinking of some Catholics, then perhaps they are just not used to thinking theologically at all. Maybe they’re used to thinking just scientifically, i.e., to say secularly and logically without the analogy of Faith; maybe they don’t have the habit of the science of God. Or perhaps they think too emotionally without connecting with the deeper truths at a level beyond the emotions.

Another dimension of women fomenting for ordination is that they are frequently anti-life, especially those on the forefront of this futile crusade (women priestesses being an inevitable spiritual dimension of this crusade for those who try in some to retain some semblance of their “Catholic” identity).

continued. . .
 
In an article in the April '93 issue of “CRISIS”, Peter Kreeft expressed this very well:
"Who are the advocates of women’s ordination? The most prominent and vocal are always dissenters against other official Church teachings as well. The issue of women’s ordination is not isolated; it is one thread of a seamless garment. Pull it, and you unravel the whole robe. (By the way, ‘dissenter’ is a modern euphemism for ‘heretic.’ Both words mean the same thing: one who says No, one who picks and chooses for himself, one who refuses to eat all the food Mother Church tells us to eat.)
"Most shockingly, feminists who advocate priestesses usually advocate accepting abortion. That fact seems to me immediately and totally to destroy their credentials to a hearing. For we know what god the priestesses of abortion serve, and his name is not Jesus. It is Moloch. Moloch also says, ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me,’ but where Jesus places His hand on their heads, Moloch places his teeth.
"In addition to approving abortion, some leaders of the push for priestesses also want the Church to approve contraception, fornication, sodomy, same-sex marriage, and divorce. A more complete demonic attack on the family could not be orchestrated even in Hell.
"Some of the leaders in the movement, such as ‘Womynchurch,’ clearly admit they are worshipping another God - Mother Earth - and practicing another religion - paganism, Christ’s old enemy risen from the dead. Anyone who freely opens the Church’s doors to these barbarians is clearly a traitor, and anyone who can’t see through these spies’ tissue-thin over of ‘Catholicism’ is a fool.
"The origin of modern feminism is not inside Christianity but outside it and against it, in deeply anti-religious and anti-Christian ideologies like Marxism and decontructionism. Mary Daly summarized her self-image candidly when she calls herself (in Pure Lust) the Antichrist, and summarized her life’s work as ‘castrating God the Father.’ Next to her Nietzsche was a wimp.
“There is an obvious connection between the root of the spirit of modern feminism - which is NOT prayer, personal holiness, or submission to God’s will - and its fruit, which is NOT love or joy or peace. In the most public feminist faces you can see the hate, the hardness, and the hurt. Not all advocates of priestesses have that look, but their leaders do.”
 
Excellent points, Frances.

The advocates of women priests try to present themselves as people who are attempting to somehow broaden the scope of the considerations pertinent to the question. In fact, they narrow the scope, and do so to a very marked degree.

They begin with the priesthood itself. The advocates inevitably greatly downplay, or even fully ignore, the Sacramental aspect of the priesthood. It is, to them, defined merely by function – a job, not a vocation. Not being a vocation, thoughts then turn to considerations pertinent to employee rights, and the betterment of the individual, which are simply not pertinent to considerations concerning the priesthood at all.

But perhaps worst of all, once started down that road, the advocates, or certainly their leaders, tend to carry this narrowness over into virtually every aspect of the faith. If one can disregard the sacramental aspect of Holy Orders, then why not the other Sacraments, too? Matrimony is a fairly obvious target, with the concept of divorce being thrust onto the table. And beyond the seven Sacraments, the whole Sacramental view of the universe is chucked. Nothing points to anything beyond itself to something greater. What a bleak, horrible world they would have us inhabit!

There is good news, though. These misguided guides have lost so much that it is getting nothing but harder for them to get a hearing. They are no longer able to pose as brave new pioneers; they are the same-old, same-old whiners and complainers who can only get any attention by attacking the Church which they claim (who do they think they are kidding?) to love. The spectacles that they generate when they gather on boats to mock the Sacrament of Holy Orders get more and more ridiculous, with one commentator describing a recent one as resembling a lesbian hallowe’en party. They have not prevailed. The Church has.

As long as our Holy Mother continues to provide her children with such an incredibly vast vista when showing them what God has created, these narrowers will not prevail. Sadly though, they can do, and have done, much harm to the souls of some of the faithful, and to their own.

By the way, did you know that the audio lecture that is based on your quote from Peter Kreeft (of whom I’m a huge fan) is on line at his web site? It is one of the most concise, comprehensive, and cogent summaries of why (in his words) “only boys can be the daddies.” And, Catholic gentleman that he is, he also includes compelling demonstrations on why a male priesthood is absolutely not a slight to women at all. I’d recommend it to all.

Blessings,

Gerry
 
. . .

By the way, did you know that the audio lecture that is based on your quote from Peter Kreeft (of whom I’m a huge fan) is on line at his web site? It is one of the most concise, comprehensive, and cogent summaries of why (in his words) “only boys can be the daddies.” And, Catholic gentleman that he is, he also includes compelling demonstrations on why a male priesthood is absolutely not a slight to women at all. I’d recommend it to all.
I haven’t visited Peter Kreeft’s site in awhile, so I will look for the lecture, thank you, Gerry!
 
But, are they many?

(BTW, I was not being sarcastic)

peace
Guess what, I found a website for the Carmelites in Alhambra, the place I was thinking of. Don’t know how far that is from Long Beach, but I saw them at a conference in Southern Ca one time. Check out the photos and you’ll see the beautiful nuns in their habits.

members.aol.com/teresacarm/
Carmel of St. Teresa, Alhambra, Los Angeles, California, USA
 
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