Women, at the Heart of the Church

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(although the arguments against women’s ordination are almost as ridiculous)…
Perhaps you don’t realize to whom your negative remark is aimed. Christ followed His Father in choosing men for the priesthood (Acts 1:2). Pope John Paul II, those before him and our Holy Father today have taught infallibly that the Church does not have the authority to ordain women. (see my earlier post on this issue in this thread). Do you really mean to call their teaching ridiculous?
If you are Catholic and set yourself above these teachings and do not accept the infallibility of the Pope, then you reject the whole of the Truth which is our faith.
That would be to set yourself in opposition to the Church. I choose to follow the Pope and the Holy Spirit on this and all doctrine. Cling to it as if your immortal soul depends on it…because it does.
 
I will obey the Magisterium because I am a faithful Catholic. It doesn’t mean I have to agree./QUOTE]

Uh…Actually you do have to agree on some issues. Things like abortion, homosexuality AND women not being able to be priests are just a few of the things you MUST agree with the Magisterium on to be a Catholic.

If you do not agree with these things then you are not a Catholic and are living a lie.
 
thedavidwilson;3605379 Uh...Actually you do have to agree on some issues. Things like abortion:
Well put! At what point do people think it is okay to pick and choose on issues that are doctrinal and still claim to be Catholic? Thanks for putting it succinctly.
 
GemmaRose: “I will obey the Magisterium because I am a faithful Catholic. It doesn’t mean I have to agree.”

Uh…Actually you do have to agree on some issues. Things like abortion, homosexuality AND women not being able to be priests are just a few of the things you MUST agree with the Magisterium on to be a Catholic.

If you do not agree with these things then you are not a Catholic and are living a lie.
Actually its more subtle. She’s almost right. She doesn’t have to agree. She is free to have difficulty with Church teaching and to continue to wrestle with the concept trying to understand it. Indeed she must! She is doing the right thing in obeying (not getting faux ordained). The only fault I think she is showing here is in presenting her struggle as an argument against the Church instead of an acknowledgement of her struggles with the idea. The latter is constructive and leads to growth. The former is divisive and leads to hardening of heart.
 
I was very disappointed in the Pope’s visit. It seemed to me the United States Bishops wrote the speeches and guided the pope on their issues and not on the pressing issues in the United States church. I didn’t hear anything about women becoming priests or womens rights in the church. He did not address the abortion issue in the United States as 40 million deaths of the unborn isn’t enough. He did not speak of the sacrament of marriage is between a man and women. He spoke a little about illegat immigration and supported it and we as Catholic don’t allow people to become Catholic without going through the proper procedures. I was disappointed and I believe he was mislead by the leaders of the Catholic Church in the United States
 
I was very disappointed in the Pope’s visit. It seemed to me the United States Bishops wrote the speeches and guided the pope on their issues and not on the pressing issues in the United States church.
That is a very cynical view and implies that you think little of our bishops.
I didn’t hear anything about women becoming priests or womens rights in the church.
I think that issue was pretty firmly answered by his predecessor.
He did not address the abortion issue in the United States as 40 million deaths of the unborn isn’t enough.
Yes, he did. I was at the Yankee Stadium Mass on April 20, and he specifically mentioned the rights of the unborn. His comments received applause that actually delayed the continuation of his homily. Also at that Mass, he spoke about the importance of unity in the Catholic Church, authority, obedience and Truth. He made it very, very clear that orthodoxy is a great concern in this country, though he may not have mentioned gay marriage or women’s ordination by name.

You can read the texts of his homily at that Mass or the other events from the Papal Visit at uspapalvisit.org/. I hope you will find, as I did, that his comments were insightful, powerful, healing and spoken with love and pastoral care.
 
Women have an extremely important role in the church. We have many characteristics different from men for a reason…to complement each other. I’d rather have 100 nuns praying to God for a change than women being allowed in the Magisterium. I think the nuns would get more done lol

Women are very devout followers with a great love and that is shown through their acts of charity and love. Just b/c they can’t be priests or belong to the Magisterium doesn’t make them inferior or less influential. God hears the prayers of the devout and humble and faithful and He will answer them. That’s the greatest power of all and a wonderful gift and you don’t have to sit in a room full of stuffy old theologians who probably wouldn’t listen anyway…

just kidding, I’m sure they are very loving too.
 
I will obey the Magisterium because I am a faithful Catholic. It doesn’t mean I have to agree.

The article is correct. Women can be found at the very foundation of the Church. Who knows how long it would have taken the Apostles to catch on to the Resurrection if it wasn’t for the faithful women who had been at the foot of the Cross and at the tomb.

Jesus spoke to women… UNHEARD OF!

Jesus’ followers included women… UNHEARD OF!

Jesus told women to spread the Gospel (“Go tell my brothers…”)… UNHEARD OF!

Women were so important in Jesus’ ministry and in the early Church, that they were named in the Bible… UNHEARD OF!

BUT, women priests or deacons… UNHEARD OF!

There seems to be only two places in the Church that I, without a penis, am welcomed:

In the delivery room as a broodmare, or

In a laundry room, washing and ironing altar clothes and vestments.

Sad. Very sad. 😦 😦 😦
The very sad thing is your language and the way you view womanhood!:mad:
 
That’s a very bald-faced untruth, the falseness of which is amply demonstrated by considering the very structure of the Church- ***all ***the official teachings are made by the magesterium, the magesterium is made up of the pope and all the bishops (see the catechism), the bishops and popes are all priests, and women are denied the priesthood - therefore no women may participate directly in any decision involving doctrine, dogma, or magesterial teachings.

Thus denying the priesthood to women is much more than denying the ability to minister the sacraments - it is denying the value of their direct (name removed by moderator)ut to anything the Chruch teaches.

I don’t see it as terribly wrong to think that female (name removed by moderator)ut just might be of some value when issues are decided affecting the spiritual and moral direction of ***all ***members of the Church but apparantly the leadership feels comfortable ignoring the (name removed by moderator)ut of half the flock.
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
Also a bald-faced untruth, the falseness of which can be amply demonstrated by referencing any number of a women who hold important positions within the Church.

But no sense in letting the truth get in the way of you getting to trot out the words “penis”, “broodmare”, and “laundry room” yet again.

:rolleyes:

– Mark L. Chance.
(Spoken thus, not surprisingly by one who does have a you-know-what.)

Exactly which “important” :rolleyes: positions are you referring to?

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 

Women do have (name removed by moderator)ut, and the leadership does ask for it.
Examples?

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
Why does it matter whether womens opinion is asked? The fact is that God guides the Church irrelevant of our opinions. God is the Truth and He must reveal Himself to us. No ones opinion means anything.
Well doesn’t that just say it all?

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
Examples?

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
Well, at my church our liturgy coordinator is a woman, as is our DRE, music director, etc. We have women on the parish council, female lectors, EMHC’s, altar servers, and most importantly, women in the pews praying for the church! I also know many women who serve at the diocesan level. As for going “higher up” than that, I’ll admit, I’m not an expert on the church hierarchy, but it seems to me that behind every holy man, there is a woman praying for him.
 
It has been nice knowing you all, and I have really enjoyed participating in Catholic Answers Forums. I say this because immediately after my comments below are read, I expect to be stoned on the front lawn.

There are women in cloisters all over the world who live lives of silence and humility and prayer. No one ever hears their opinions on how the Church is run because they never give voice to their opinions, having more important things to do - like praying. Do these women’s lives have value? Nobody sees them, or hears them, or listens to them. Yet, I believe as do they, their lives have a great impact on the world and on the Church.

If you feel that the Church is not giving your opinions the consideration they deserve go to your needs and tell God your opinions. If they have merit, I’m sure He’ll pass them on to the Bishops.
Are you just as sure the Bishops will listen?

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
In other words, you AGREE with male chauvanists everywhere that a woman who nutures her children full-time, brings order to her family and sacrifices her own desires for power and gratification is inferior to one who refuses all that and grasps for fortune, fame, power and influence.

Nicely done.
I would appreciate your not putting YOUR WORDS into MY MOUTH. That you have done so, is so typical for so many men.

I have not denigrated full-time mothers, however, the dignity of a woman does not lie in childbearing alone. That you would suggest it does betrays how you feel about women.

To lump all other women into a group that “grasps for fortune, fame, power and influence” is yet another example of your disgusting chauvinistic attitude, not to mention that you are so far from the truth in my regard that if you had the slightest clue, you would beg for my forgiveness.

You may just want to re-examine where the REAL influence in history lies. Although Kings and conquerers make the history books, bishops and monks swell the rolls of the cannonized saints it is NOT glory and fame which truly change the world. THAT is done in the FAMILIES where the faith is passed from one generation to the next.
What other roles have women been granted over the centuries?

Contemporary catholics like to credit John Paul II with vanquishing Communism starting in Poland. But he would have been able to do NOTHING if Polish grandmothers and mothers had not secretly passed on the faith to the new generation. The men sure couldn’t do it as well, they were off in the factories and shipyards for long hours every day and have always had less than 1/3 of the time with the kids compared to women. The fact that Poland retained its catholic faith is what gave it the strength to tear the iron curtain. When you denigrate the role these women played and call them ‘broodmares’, you join the ranks of the mysoginsts.
Again, I have never denigrated the role of mother, but to assert as the Church does that this is where our dignity lies, reduces all womens’ value to nothing but broodmares.

In addition to the utterly crucial role women have played as the cement in the basic building block of civilization (families), women have for centuries in the catholic lead their own orders, founded and run schools, founded and run hospitals, founded and run a wide variety of charities, have been theologians and Doctors of the Church. The ONLY role denied to women in the Church is that of the sacrament of Holy Orders. If you see the Church as a human construct and the priesthood a vehicle to power, then you should be kept as far away from it as possible, whatever your sex!
Again, you have put YOUR WORDS into MY MOUTH.

Women have absolutely no say in anything in the Church, as several prior posts of others have noted. Since women make up half of humanity, and probably more than half of the membership of the Church, hasn’t it ever crossed your mind that this is basically a very unfair situation? No, I would guess it hasn’t.

By the way, you’re the one who seems to be inordinately obsessed with the idea of power.

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
Whoever said it was ‘unheard of’ ?
Read a little about the social structure and culture of the time.

Yes, Jesus gave high regard to women, but not in the way you expected.
You are mistaken. Jesus gave high regard to women in the way I would expect Him to do. It was His male followers who did not follow suit.

So why do you suppose Jesus didn’t choose them as one of the 12 ??

Ever ponder thiss ?
I have pondered how, after His resurrection, Jesus appeared FIRST to a faithful women and sent her as an “apostle to the apostles,” yet, 2,000 years later, a woman is still a second class citizen in the eyes of the Church. Yes, I do ponder this.

What a way to degrade women with such verbage as yours.

If there ever was a one who demeans women, it’s you !
Speaking the truth does not degrade women. And speaking the truth has never been popular. People still are crucified for speaking the truth.

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
Gemma Rose and others with similar thinking: please consider at whom your anger is directed.

As John Paul II stated in ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS (1994): “In order that all doubt be removed . . . in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren, I declare that the Church has NO AUTHORITY WHATSOEVER to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitely held by all the Church’s faithful.” This means that this teaching is infallible. Which means it has come to us from the Holy Spirit.

No Pope now or in the future or majesterium has the authority to change the doctrines that were given us by Christ Himself. All that they may do is apply Catholic teaching/doctrine to new situations, such as stem cell research, surrogate pregnancies, etc. The doctrines dont’ change, only how to apply them as we learn more as people about God’s design.

Those who have Holy Orders have no ability to change the Church given us by Christ, and as such, if you were able to be ordained, you would not have that ability either.
(1) The very action of Jesus Himself, in sending and appointing Mary Magdalen as “apostle to the apostles” should, in and of itself, open the door to women being ordained to the diaconate. Just as a condition for the diaconate is that if a man’s wife dies he may not re-marry, so a condition could be put upon a woman’s ordination to the diaconate that they could not go on to the priesthood.

(2) The words of Jesus Himself in Matthew 19:12 should be the basis of consecration as a Sacrament, available to both men and women.

Your anger over not being allowed to be a priest is sad, because it is anger at Our Lord who made this decision in accordance with the Father. Anger is a destructive thing.
Please don’t tell me with whom I am angry or even that I am angry.

(1) I am not angry at our Lord, nor have I any reason to be angry at Him. HE treated women with dignity and respect, unlike those who came after Him.

(2) I am not angry at the Church. I am disappointed in it that after 2,000 years of patriarchy, it still treats women as second class citizens.

Jesus loved Mary, His Holy Mother and also many great women who supported his ministry. It was not for solely social/cultural reasons that He did not choose them for apotles. It was His Father’s will.(Acts 1:2) If He did not choose them then, it is pride that makes some women feel today that they should be choosen for their own reasons over that of Our Lord. You do an injustice to the women throughout the ages who have been mothers, holy martyrs, and virgins, who have given their lives for the Faith and passed it on to the next generation in accordance with God’s plan.
How is it an injustice to wish (a) that the Church would recognize that being a mother is not a women’s sole dignity, and (b) that the Church would treat with a modicum of equality those “holy martyrs, and virgins, who have given their lives for the Faith…”

I hate to point this out, but as an RN, I see new parents on a daily basis, and more than a few fathers verbalize (in a type of envy) their deep amazement of what women do to give birth and breastfeed their babies. Men cannot give birth (don’t even start on the preg. woman who calls herself a man on Oprah!), and I suppose there are some men who might feel cheated in that, but for the most part men recognize that as a good design of the Almighty and find fulfillment in their roles as fathers.
I agree that the miracle of pregnancy, birth and breastfeeding are such wonders that the word “miracle” doesn’t quite cover it. However, women are more than just their reproductive organs.

Catholics are called to embrace all of our doctrines, not just the ones that are easy for us or those we agree with.
There is a difference between obeying and embracing. A Catholic husband and wife might totally disagree with NFP and truly believe that other forms of contraception for spacing the birth of their children works better, yet still embrace NFP in order to be faithful to the teachings of the Church.

In the same way, I might totally disagree with something, yet remain obedient, as opposed to others who have left the Church or participate in such things as a “women’s only” “Mass.”

The Lord loves obedience. Remember… which of the sons did the father’s will - the one who said “Yes! I will go work in the fields,” and did not go, or the other son who said, “No, I will not go,” yet thought the better of it and complied with his father’s request?

Vocations come from God. They do not come from quasi-political/cultural movements without or within the Church. They don’t come from anger. They don’t come from pride. They come from prayer and a willingness to put Our Lord’s plan before our own, in His grace and in His Church.
Yes, I agree that vocations come from God, and those to whom God has given a vocation know it deep within their souls.

May I become less, that He become more. It is His Church, you know.
And we all, male and female, are its members.

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
GemmaRose;3593429:
I will obey the Magisterium because I am a faithful Catholic. It doesn’t mean I have to agree./QUOTE]

Uh…Actually you do have to agree on some issues. Things like abortion, homosexuality AND women not being able to be priests are just a few of the things you MUST agree with the Magisterium on to be a Catholic.

If you do not agree with these things then you are not a Catholic and are living a lie.
No, you have to OBEY. OBEY and AGREE are two different things.

Example: A couple wanting to space the birth of their children might believe that the most effective way of doing that is with some form of artificial birth control, but in order to be obedient to the teachings of the Church, use NFP. They sacrifice their own belief and desire in favor of obedience to the teaching of the Church.

Biblical: Jesus explained the difference in the parable of the two brothers, the one who agreed to go to work in the fields as his father requested, yet did not go, and the other brother who refused to go then thought about it and did obey his father’s request. Jesus showed how highly He prizes obedience by saying that it was the second son who did his father’s will (i.e., the one who sacrificed his desire to be a “couch potato” in favor of obedience to his father’s request).

*“Dear God, do You know the greatest grief one of Your creatures can bear? It is the thought that she can never love You enough. ” *- St. Gemma Galgani
 
I believe women should be involved in every aspect of the church. I don’t believe the theachings of Christ would discriminate against women.

Would it be discrimination if the Catholic church did not allow black men to become priests? So why then is not discrimination to not allow women to be priest? This is a rule handed down by men and not from Jesus. I say discrimination is discrimination and there is no place for it, if you follow the teachings of Christ. Remember Galileo and the churches teachings then.
 
For those who don’t believe in certain Church teachings what makes you think that the ones you DO agree with are correct?

I guess you all just know better than 2000 years of Tradition and Doctrine?:rolleyes:

Well, since it was good enough for Luther it can be good enough for you!😛
 
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