Women, at the Heart of the Church

[jweich]

The Church (i.e., the Magisterium) has consistently spoken of the dignity of women being linked to their procreative faculties. If that is the only dignity the Church can come up with, then it is the Church who has placed women’s value at little more than a broodmare.

I think women who raise their children full time are darn near miracle workers, esepecially in today’s world where it’s nearly impossible to get by without two incomes. Dozens of descriptions come to mind for such women… clever, industrious, loving, self-sacrificing, inventive… the list can go on and on. For the Church to consistenly focus on one thing, i.e. babymaking, denigrates them and all women who have so many other qualities other than birthing.

Alright, I have to admit that people just get silly when they suggest that the Church reduces woman to their biological capacities.

Gen 1:27. “God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them.”

Maybe we could have a discussion on how English is a sexist language, I don’t know - and that would be an entirely different discussion - but we would never approach a contradiction of the undeniable fact that it is a fundemental tenet of the faith that God, in creating “man” in His image, was creating men *and *women in His divine image. Woman is as much the image of God as man is. This isn’t skirting the issue or running around making excuses. This is confronting the faith honestly and in its totality.

*Which means *- and this is hugely important because it contradicts everything you just wrote - every time the pope or the Church writes or produces or teaches anything concerning the fundamental dignity of humanity, meaning of human existence, or wonder at the profound and infinite depths of the human person, woman is always as much being described as man is.

This isn’t making excuses. This is the core of the faith. It seems far more likely that it is you who are focusing on the babymaking, and ignoring the rest of the Church’s teaching on what it means to be human.

If you notice, in fact, whenever the Church teaches on the dignity of women, it is to reaffirm her dignity and worth as simulataneously equal and unique to man as a beloved creature of God. It needn’t even do so. If people were willing to pay attention to the reality that each human person, male and female, posseses the marvelous capacity to be “clever, industrious, loving, self-sacrificing, and inventive,” there would never be a rejection or diminution of anyone, let alone women as a category of person. It is through sin and the rejection of God’s plan that this happens.

And it is through confusion - or perhaps invincible ignorance - that anyone fails to realize the infinite worth and dignity of the human person , and capacity in each individual for radical holiness and possession of wonderful qualities, that the Church has always professed, easily and inherently applies to women as to men.

If anything, “babymaking” is a profound mystery that draws attention to the profound miracle of human life and existence; the Church’s reverance for woman as the bearers of new life does only, and can only, add to her dignity as an image of God, rather than in any way reduce her. “Babymaking” - and note how casual and ultimately demeaning it is to refer to procreation that way in a discussion like this - is something that woman can do that man cannot. Which increases, rather than diminishes, her infinite and inherent value. (If infinity can be increased. I guess not.)

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Is the Church subject to Christ? Does anyone on this thread want to suggest that the Church is equal to or superior to Christ?

Then let us look at Ephesians 5

The paragraph begins in verse 15

“See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,” then follows a list of things that being wise we should do:

being not drunk with wine, but filled with the Spirit
redeeming the time
speaking in psalms and hymns and making melody to the Lord
giving thanks always for all things

Then we get to verse 21:

submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God (note that there is no mention of gender here. This is just something that wise Christians do, they submit to one another.)

But now we have verse 22:

Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

And verse 24:

Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the Church and gave himself for it. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Love is the key here. Wives out of love submit to their husbands, the Church out of love submits to Christ. Is it such a big thing for women to swallow the false pride of independence and bow to teachings of the Church and of Christ?

Women’s liberation and feminists, in the first world countries have destroyed women and destroyed the family and have attempted to destroy the Church. There are many, many women in their mid fifties and sixties who never married, never had children. Now they are getting old and look toward to a much longer much lonelier old age than their mothers and grandmothers did. They spent their lives being liberated, only to discover too late that it was a different type of exploitation. Where now is anyone to love them as Christ loves the Church.

The Church is the bride of Christ, subject to Him and obedient to Him. As women, let us emulate the Church and also be obedient to Christ. If the Church says no women priests, or no public participation, then let us say “Behold, the handmaid of the Lord, be it unto me according to thy word.”

 

[kristie_m]

The Church is the bride of Christ, subject to Him and obedient to Him. As women, let us emulate the Church and also be obedient to Christ. If the Church says no women priests, or no public participation, then let us say "Behold, the handmaid of the Lord, be it unto me according to thy word."

:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:

Well said Marsha!

 

[bellesjoy]

Maybe the reason I present the issue in the way I do is because no one has ever satisfactorily answered the questions I have. Additionally, I would like the Church, sometime in my lifetime, to make a statement on the dignity of women which did not include our ability to bear children. Women are more than walking wombs.

Here ya go: CCC
**369 **Man and woman have been created, which is to say, *willed *by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. “Being man” or “being woman” is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity “in the image of God”. In their “being-man” and “being-woman”, they reflect the Creator’s wisdom and goodness.

 

[liturgy_geek]

I agree, the use of the word “babymaking” doesn’t even begin to do the act of motherhood justice. These are SOULS, not just babies. And we haven’t even touched the issue of the negative effects of the declining birthrate in the Western world.

The use of the word “babymaking” is so very telling in itself.

 

[jweich]

Here ya go: CCC
**369 **Man and woman have been created, which is to say, *willed *by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. “Being man” or “being woman” is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity “in the image of God”. In their “being-man” and “being-woman”, they reflect the Creator’s wisdom and goodness.

Ha, right. I wrote all that before, and as usual, all we needed to do is go to the Catechism. Which demonstrates once again the truth at the heart of Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s statement:

“There are not a hundred people in American who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions of people who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church-- which is, of course, quite a different thing.”

 

[Carolinagirl411]

not sure if someone posted this quote already but I’m a fan of Archbishop Fulton Sheen

“To a great extent the level of any civilization is the level of its womanhood. When a man loves a woman, he has to become worthy of her. The higher her virtue, the more her character, the more devoted she is to truth, justice, goodness, the more a man has to aspire to be worthy of her. The history of civilization could actually be written in terms of the level of its women.”
~Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

 

[neat62]

Is the Church subject to Christ? Does anyone on this thread want to suggest that the Church is equal to or superior to Christ?

Then let us look at Ephesians 5

The paragraph begins in verse 15

“See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,” then follows a list of things that being wise we should do:

being not drunk with wine, but filled with the Spirit
redeeming the time
speaking in psalms and hymns and making melody to the Lord
giving thanks always for all things

Then we get to verse 21:

submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God (note that there is no mention of gender here. This is just something that wise Christians do, they submit to one another.)

But now we have verse 22:

Wives submit yourselves unto your own husbands as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

And verse 24:

Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the Church and gave himself for it. That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle or any such thing, but that it should be holy and without blemish. So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

Love is the key here. Wives out of love submit to their husbands, the Church out of love submits to Christ. Is it such a big thing for women to swallow the false pride of independence and bow to teachings of the Church and of Christ?

Women’s liberation and feminists, in the first world countries have destroyed women and destroyed the family and have attempted to destroy the Church. There are many, many women in their mid fifties and sixties who never married, never had children. Now they are getting old and look toward to a much longer much lonelier old age than their mothers and grandmothers did. They spent their lives being liberated, only to discover too late that it was a different type of exploitation. Where now is anyone to love them as Christ loves the Church.

**The Church is the bride of Christ, subject to Him and obedient to Him. As women, let us emulate the Church and also be obedient to Christ. If the Church says no women priests, or no public participation, then let us say “Behold, the handmaid of the Lord, be it unto me according to thy word.” **

Nicely stated…and a big AMEN from me!