Women cardinals

[gksaoh]

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

John Paul II contended that women could not be priests. The office of cardinal is not of Scriptural origin. It is not part of Holy Orders. At times, laymen have been made cardinals. Their function is to advise the pope and elect a successor when the position is vacant.

This system originated only in 1159. It is not written in stone. The pope can make any changes he wishes. He is free to add women to his advisers and electors.

Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

 

[mosher]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

John Paul II contended that women could not be priests. The office of cardinal is not of Scriptural origin. It is not part of Holy Orders. At times, laymen have been made cardinals. Their function is to advise the pope and elect a successor when the position is vacant.

This system originated only in 1159. It is not written in stone. The pope can make any changes he wishes. He is free to add women to his advisers and electors.

Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

True that if the current regulations are reverted to the old regulations a Cadinal can be a lay person. However, women cannot hold official teaching positions in the Church which is part of the role of the Cardinal hence a women could not be a Cardinal. This is an over simplification but it is a good place to start the discussion.

 

[BillyT92679]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

John Paul II contended that women could not be priests. The office of cardinal is not of Scriptural origin. It is not part of Holy Orders. At times, laymen have been made cardinals. Their function is to advise the pope and elect a successor when the position is vacant.

This system originated only in 1159. It is not written in stone. The pope can make any changes he wishes. He is free to add women to his advisers and electors.

Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

Why should they made cardinals? There hasn’t been a lay cardinal in generations… and no woman can become Pope anyway.

Neither Holy Orders nor an extra-order designation (monsignore/cardinalate) is a right given to anyone. It is the will of the Church.

Frankly, I am tired of people trying to push forward the idea that the Church has to acquiesce to them, rather than people submitting to the will of the Church. This goes for both the far left and the far right.

I, in a way, respect Protestants more. They are at least honest enough to believe that if you truly don’t like what the Church is doing, start your own. Most of them thankfully leave the Bride of Christ alone. Too many Catholics continually try to change her to suit what they want.

If you are going to complain about the Catholic Church, I am sure there is a nice Episcopalian or United Methodist Church that would be far more amenable to what you want.

 

[Illini]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

John Paul II contended that women could not be priests. The office of cardinal is not of Scriptural origin. It is not part of Holy Orders. At times, laymen have been made cardinals. Their function is to advise the pope and elect a successor when the position is vacant.

This system originated only in 1159. It is not written in stone. The pope can make any changes he wishes. He is free to add women to his advisers and electors.

Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

 1.Cardinals are clergy of the Diocese of Rome, even if only titular in nature. Each is either a cardinal-deacon, cardinal-priest, or cardinal-bishop and is assigned a titular church in Rome. Because women cannot be deacons, priests, or bishops, it follows that a woman cannot be a cardinal.

 2. A cardinalate is not a "reward." It is an added responsibility, piled onto the cardinal's primary duty as archbishop of an important diocese or head of a department of the Roman Curia. 

 3. Holding any office in the Church, including that of cardinal, is not about "power." It is about service. In fact, Church officials have no "power" to change doctrine.

-Illini

 

[Dropper]

gksaoh:

Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

And just why should the Church conform to society? It definately should be the other way around.

 

[msproule]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week…

According to the Code of Canon Law:Can. 351 §1. The Roman Pontiff freely selects men to be promoted as cardinals, who have been ordained at least into the order of the presbyterate and are especially outstanding in doctrine, morals, piety, and prudence in action; those who are not yet bishops must receive episcopal consecration.

Currently, any man elected to the College of Cardinals must be a priest already and if not yet a Bishop must be ordained to the Episcopacy. This is similar to the process by which a layman could potentially be elected to the Papacy. While your point is that Canon Law can be changed from its current status, the question then becomes “why should it?”

…Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

…Because the Church should not try to acquiesce to pressures from secular society. Equality in the secular sense is distinct from equality in dignity in terms of one’s religious vocation.

Besides, one need not be a Cardinal to have substantial advisory influence with the Holy Father. I know that goes against your idea that becoming a Cardinal is some type of “reward”, but I think anybody with this mindset (yes, even a Cardinal) is gravely mistaken. With such an appointment comes greater responsibility and potentially greater culpability. Therefore, one might contend that they are at a disadvantage when compared to women and laymen in regard to their potential for sainthood. Isn’t that consolation enough?

 

[KCT]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

Reward system? --KCT

 

[stbruno]

One of the greatest apostles of all times is our Blessed Mother. In fact, she reminds us what title she wants us to call her many times during her apparations…like I am the" Immaculate Conception"

My wife has told me over and over again that she truly believes that if women need titles to serve the Lord or the Magisterium well than they truly don’t understand how to serve. God created us all to serve complimentary roles. No one is greater than another even when they are called the President of the US or the Pope. God loves us all the very same.
And I don’t think there is a man alive who cannot live without a woman in their life since Adam was created and was lonely. I think the greatest title my own wife wants and she has told me over and over again even though she serves the church in many ministries is “Mom.”

 

[jrabs]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

Yet another thread on the apparent downtrodden position of women in the church. :banghead:

There are plenty of opportunities to be effective in the church without being a priest or cardinal. All the woman saints were neither yet the church has celebrated them whole heartedly as Catholic examples.

Besides the Trinity, who holds the highest honor in the church? The Blessed Mother.

We do not need to be priests or cardinals to be important. That is not our ordained role ( no pun intended ).

 

[palmas85]

You know the whiole issue of womans ordinations to me speaks to nothing more than the fact these people want something. To be perfectly brutally frank about things I would have **LOVED **to be a priest. I wanted it more than just about anything.

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I never could have been. I lacked something very vital. I didn’t have the calling. Straight up, I didn’t have it. For whatever reason, The Holy Spirit didn’t call me. Even though I wanted it so bad I could taste it, even though I layed awake and night praying over it. I knew in my heart that I could do it and be very effective at it. It simply wasn’t meant to be. Not my choice, not my decision, it wasn’t meant to be.

It doesn’t matter how much you want something, or how qualified you think you are to have it, if it is not the will of God it isn’t going to happen. I don’t think that women have been called by the Holy Spirit to the priesthood. I don’t mean that in a negative way at all. I wasn’t called either.

If they had been called, they would be priests by now. And if I had been called, so would I. I feel exactly what they feel. Disappointment, anger, maybe resentment, all natural feelings. But it doesn’t change anything.

 

[AJV]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

John Paul II contended that women could not be priests. The office of cardinal is not of Scriptural origin. It is not part of Holy Orders. At times, laymen have been made cardinals. Their function is to advise the pope and elect a successor when the position is vacant.

This system originated only in 1159. It is not written in stone. The pope can make any changes he wishes. He is free to add women to his advisers and electors.

Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

Who did you have in mind when you suggested the Pope create women cardinals?

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

As a woman, I have a hard time imaging why any woman would want to be a priest, let alone a cardinal. It just does not make good sense. Above all the numerous, scholarly (name removed by moderator)uts as to why women should not be priests (calling included), I cannot imagine a more unfeminine vocation. I know, of course, that a lot fo women will say something to the effect of, “Oh, but if we were allowed ot become priests, we’d change all that.” But how many could be a priest if nothing changed except gender?

 

[ChemicalBean]

You know, I think this is an interesting proposition.

I do not know a lot about the office of Cardinal, but from what has been posted here I fail to see how it is unfeminine. If the College of Cardinals is truly an advisory board to the Pope and acts as his “helpmate”, then it is completely compatible with the any woman’s vocation.

What would this accomplish?

Well, for one, I think it would bring more agency to the millions of women worldwide who are marginalized and voiceless. When the Church says it wants to do something about AIDS, sexual violence, abject poverty (all which disproportionately affect women and children), and does not bring those very people into the chain of command, it’s all talk. That will never effect real change. If the church really promotes the sanctity of human life and dignity of women, then the Church should put its “money where its mouth is” and “elevate” women to the office of Cardinal, showing the world that it believes in the role of women as life-bearer, nurturer, primary educator, and “spiritual mother” to God’s children, the Church.

Secondly, I think this would ultimately strengthen the Church’s assertion that women cannot be called and ordained to sacramental priesthood. If women can truly serve alongside men in all ministries and functions of the Church (save celebrating 5 sacraments) at the “bottom” and at the “top”, then it would be easier for people to believe/accept that there is something about the mysterious ontological design of things that says men can be ordained and women cannot be.

 

[Kendy]

OutinChgoburbs:

As a woman, I have a hard time imaging why any woman would want to be a priest, let alone a cardinal. It just does not make good sense. Above all the numerous, scholarly (name removed by moderator)uts as to why women should not be priests (calling included), I cannot imagine a more unfeminine vocation. I know, of course, that a lot fo women will say something to the effect of, “Oh, but if we were allowed ot become priests, we’d change all that.” But how many could be a priest if nothing changed except gender?

How is it being a priest unfeminine? I am not being sarcastic; I really don’t understand.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

ChemicalBean:

You know, I think this is an interesting proposition.

I do not know a lot about the office of Cardinal, but from what has been posted here I fail to see how it is unfeminine. If the College of Cardinals is truly an advisory board to the Pope and acts as his “helpmate”, then it is completely compatible with the any woman’s vocation.

What would this accomplish?

Well, for one, I think it would bring more agency to the millions of women worldwide who are marginalized and voiceless. When the Church says it wants to do something about AIDS, sexual violence, abject poverty (all which disproportionately affect women and children), and does not bring those very people into the chain of command, it’s all talk. That will never effect real change. If the church really promotes the sanctity of human life and dignity of women, then the Church should put its “money where its mouth is” and “elevate” women to the office of Cardinal, showing the world that it believes in the role of women as life-bearer, nurturer, primary educator, and “spiritual mother” to God’s children, the Church.

Secondly, I think this would ultimately strengthen the Church’s assertion that women cannot be called and ordained to sacramental priesthood. If women can truly serve alongside men in all ministries and functions of the Church (save celebrating 5 sacraments) at the “bottom” and at the “top”, then it would be easier for people to believe/accept that there is something about the mysterious ontological design of things that says men can be ordained and women cannot be.

 

[mosher]

ChemicalBean:

You know, I think this is an interesting proposition.

I do not know a lot about the office of Cardinal, but from what has been posted here I fail to see how it is unfeminine. If the College of Cardinals is truly an advisory board to the Pope and acts as his “helpmate”, then it is completely compatible with the any woman’s vocation.

What would this accomplish?

Well, for one, I think it would bring more agency to the millions of women worldwide who are marginalized and voiceless. When the Church says it wants to do something about AIDS, sexual violence, abject poverty (all which disproportionately affect women and children), and does not bring those very people into the chain of command, it’s all talk. That will never effect real change. If the church really promotes the sanctity of human life and dignity of women, then the Church should put its “money where its mouth is” and “elevate” women to the office of Cardinal, showing the world that it believes in the role of women as life-bearer, nurturer, primary educator, and “spiritual mother” to God’s children, the Church.

Secondly, I think this would ultimately strengthen the Church’s assertion that women cannot be called and ordained to sacramental priesthood. If women can truly serve alongside men in all ministries and functions of the Church (save celebrating 5 sacraments) at the “bottom” and at the “top”, then it would be easier for people to believe/accept that there is something about the mysterious ontological design of things that says men can be ordained and women cannot be.

The absurdity of this post is that it implies that for one to truly empathise with a particular group of humanity they must themselves be part of that group or they must be members of that group - this is a false assertion. Experience has nothing to do with knowing.

 

[ChemicalBean]

mosher:

The absurdity of this post is that it implies that for one to truly empathise with a particular group of humanity they must themselves be part of that group or they must be members of that group - this is a false assertion. Experience has nothing to do with knowing.

I didn’t mean that a person, or a body of people, that don’t fit a certain demographic cannot empathise with people of that demographic. But there’s a big difference between empathy with people in a rotten situation and causing that situation to change. I absolutely believe that the Church empathizes with victims of disease, violence, and poverty. And in the sense of all the people dedicated to relieving these situations, the universal “Church” does respond with action - that’s a ground-up strategy.

But, a lot of the systems in place that cause such injustices are not in control of ordinary people, but in the hands of a few self-serving governments and corporations. The institutional Church is one of a few powerful bodies that can confront such governments and corporations from the top-down, and I don’t see them “doing” anything. John Paul the Great, representing the insitutional church, was very instrumental in dissolving communism in Eastern Europe.

Why can’t the Vatican do more of that stuff, all over the world where the church is growing by leaps and bounds (Africa, east Asia)? It has SO much influence in these places! There’s such an opportunity to not only preach that “Catholic culture says respect and honor your women, love them, listen to them” (as in an encyclical), but to say “Because we hold women in such high esteem, we call them from all over the world to be of direct service to our Holy Father.”

That’s earth-shattering to a lot of the world. But it’s also a direct witness to the Gospel. Jesus said he wanted to set the world on fire. Isn’t it time we followed his example and shook things up a bit?

 

[paramedicgirl]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

And I thought the reward for being a Catholic was the opportunity for eternal life, not feminization of the Church

gksaoh:

Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

The Catholic Church is not about women having equal roles to men. It’s actually about eternal salvation. Feminists who are pushing this agenda do more damage than good.

 

[JCPhoenix]

I’m offended. I feel violated.

How DARE the OP suggest that being elevated to Cardinal is a greater calling than being a woman?

After all, I, as a woman, can co-create with God and I can BEAR A CHILD and I can GIVE LIFE in accordance with God’s will.

What can a simple CARDINAL do to compare with THAT?

 

[Kendy]

JCPhoenix:

I’m offended. I feel violated.

How DARE the OP suggest that being elevated to Cardinal is a greater calling than being a woman?

Being a woman is a calling?

Kendy