Women cardinals

[JCPhoenix]

ChemicalBean,

So what is the point of your post? It seems at first that you are demanding that our new Pope “DO something!”, yet at the end, in the last paragraph, you are asking what “WE” can do to set the world on fire.

So that leaves me to ask, “What are YOU doing to set the world on fire?”

Don’t you realize that we are all representatives of Christ? Sure, the Pope leads us as our Spiritual Father, and we are in submission to his authority, which is the authority of Jesus Christ when he (the Pope) speaks Ex Cathedra, but we are all RESPONSIBLE for spreading that fire.

So step up, my friend! Don’t lean on the Pope to do what you and all of us should be doing. He can’t do it alone, and God DEMANDS our action.



((( as an aside: Now you all know why I’m not a motivational speaker. ))))

 

[JCPhoenix]

Kendy:

Being a woman is a calling?

Kendy

Have you checked your anatomy textbook? It’s not as though it’s a choice.

And don’t thrown sex-change operations into the mix. Wannabe-women can’t bear children. Of COURSE it’s a calling!

It’s what we do with it that determines our VOCATION.

 

[arieh0310]

Kendy:

How is it being a priest unfeminine? I am not being sarcastic; I really don’t understand.

Kendy

In persona Christi

God the Son (as well as the other two Persons of the Trinity) revealed Himself as male. If the priest is truly in the person of Christ then the spiritual dimentions are important. We call the priest “father”, and it is not strictly because of his gender but because, as St Paul said, he has become our father because he has begotten us through the Gospel (1 Corinthians 4:15).

To turn the presbytery from spiritual fatherhood (which has worked well for 20 centuries) into an androgenous career sucks all the meaning and beauty out of the priesthood. Christ created and sustained the male priesthood for a reason.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Now, really. Some of these suggestions on this board are just not well thought out.

Has anyone who advocates girl Cardinals stopped to think how we would then deal with the problem of Cardinal cooties? Would all the girl Cardinal cooties have to have little tiny red Cardinal cootie hats made for them?

 

[paramedicgirl]

Dr. Bombay:

Now, really. Some of these suggestions on this board are just not well thought out.

Has anyone who advocates girl Cardinals stopped to think how we would then deal with the problem of Cardinal cooties? Would all the girl Cardinal cooties have to have little tiny red Cardinal cootie hats made for them?

Maybe they can hop on a boat in the Danube River between Austria and Germany and just declare themselves Cardinals.

 

[mosher]

ChemicalBean:

I didn’t mean that a person, or a body of people, that don’t fit a certain demographic cannot empathise with people of that demographic. But there’s a big difference between empathy with people in a rotten situation and causing that situation to change. I absolutely believe that the Church empathizes with victims of disease, violence, and poverty. And in the sense of all the people dedicated to relieving these situations, the universal “Church” does respond with action - that’s a ground-up strategy.

But, a lot of the systems in place that cause such injustices are not in control of ordinary people, but in the hands of a few self-serving governments and corporations. The institutional Church is one of a few powerful bodies that can confront such governments and corporations from the top-down, and I don’t see them “doing” anything. John Paul the Great, representing the insitutional church, was very instrumental in dissolving communism in Eastern Europe.

Why can’t the Vatican do more of that stuff, all over the world where the church is growing by leaps and bounds (Africa, east Asia)? It has SO much influence in these places! There’s such an opportunity to not only preach that “Catholic culture says respect and honor your women, love them, listen to them” (as in an encyclical), but to say “Because we hold women in such high esteem, we call them from all over the world to be of direct service to our Holy Father.”

That’s earth-shattering to a lot of the world. But it’s also a direct witness to the Gospel. Jesus said he wanted to set the world on fire. Isn’t it time we followed his example and shook things up a bit?

The Church does not and cannot make statments to the world by changing its divine governance. I don’t see why it is so had to accept the NT teaching on the role of women in the Church.

 

[rwoehmke]

jrabs:

There are plenty of opportunities to be effective in the church without being a priest or cardinal. All the woman saints were neither yet the church has celebrated them whole heartedly as Catholic examples.

There is an article in last week’s America Magazine about the growth of lay “ministry” or service in our parishes and diocesan administration. Fully 75 percent of these “ministers” are women with an average age of 50. I believe these were paid positions, so if one considers the number of volunteers as well our Church is dominated by women and priests, deacons, and bishops are a distinct minority. Do these gals wield the authority? Probably not, but you can bet they as a group have a lot of power over how well the Church will function.

 

[stbruno]

The lay women ministers in our church…none are paid…they are all volunteers…as well as this deacon. While some deacons get stipends…our church cannot support them, so I decline them. The only compensation I receive is my annual retreat is paid by our parish. Do I complain…no I find it a privilege that I can serve our parish family in any way I can.

 

[ChemicalBean]

arieh0310:

To turn the presbytery from spiritual fatherhood (which has worked well for 20 centuries) into an androgenous career sucks all the meaning and beauty out of the priesthood.

Please expand on this. I’m not advocating any agenda here - I’m just trying to explore the viewpoints posted herein.

Describe the meaning of the priesthood and how it would be “sucked out.”

Describe the beauty of the priesthood and how it would be “sucked out.”

 

[ComradeAndrei]

That’s earth-shattering to a lot of the world. But it’s also a direct witness to the Gospel. Jesus said he wanted to set the world on fire. Isn’t it time we followed his example and shook things up a bit?

It seems every time someone wants to “shake things up a bit” it results in heresy. Martin Luther only wanted to “shake things up a bit” and look where that got us.

How about we obey the Church and accept what the Church teaches? Now isn’t that is a radical proposition…

 

[ChemicalBean]

JCPhoenix:

ChemicalBean,

So what is the point of your post? It seems at first that you are demanding that our new Pope “DO something!”, yet at the end, in the last paragraph, you are asking what “WE” can do to set the world on fire.

Not quite…the point of that last post was a response to a response about an earlier post of mine. The respondant suggested I was asserting that “to empathize with someone you had to be part of their group,” which was not my intent at all.

So that leaves me to ask, “What are YOU doing to set the world on fire?”

I study, I read, I talk with people, I pray. I listen and lend a hand when I can be of help.

Mostly, I ask uncomfortable questions that make people rethink what they (perhaps) just blindly accepted as truth. Sometimes that ticks people off. I suppose it lights fires under a few tails

Don’t you realize that we are all representatives of Christ? Sure, the Pope leads us as our Spiritual Father, and we are in submission to his authority, which is the authority of Jesus Christ when he (the Pope) speaks Ex Cathedra, but we are all RESPONSIBLE for spreading that fire.

Absolutely I realize that!! Through our baptism we all share in the authority of Christ through the gifts of his Holy Spirit. The authority granted to the Pope is different in degree than the authority granted to us, which is precisely why I argue that the Pope is much better equipped to cry out for systematic changes in the world than you or me or even a bunch of us are.

But even the Pope’s authority is limited, and certainly his gifts, his spiritualily, his cultural background and worldview are going to be different than those of his cardinals, which is why he has them as papal advisors and go-to people. And further, it’s obvious that the spirituality of a woman in the US is going to be different from a man in the US, and is also different from a woman in China or Kenya, etc.

I initially said that women cardinals would be an interesting proposition, and as I thought about it more, I decided that it could benefit the Church in how it witnesses the Gospel in the world.

From a business sense - every manager who has climbed a ladder knowsthat she didn’t get there on her own, and if she is going to thrive, she needs the most talented, diverse advisors and employees working for her. With this perspective, the business of the Vatican would be highly enriched with the presence of women cardinals.

From a sacramental sense - I guess women cardinals could help the Church be a much fuller “sacrament” to the world. I would liken it to receiving communion under both species. Sure, you get the full, total, Real Presence of Christ whether you receive the host or the cup or both. But lots of us receive under both species because it becomes a much fuller sacramental sign for us. In the same way, I can see an analogy to having women and men as cardinals. Sure, we believe that the Church is preserved from error in faith and morals regardless. But to us and to the world, the presence of women in the College of Cardinals would help the Church, and it’s teachings and actions, be a much fuller sacramental sign.

 

[ChemicalBean]

ComradeAndrei:

It seems every time someone wants to “shake things up a bit” it results in heresy. Martin Luther only wanted to “shake things up a bit” and look where that got us.

True…shaking things up a bit is a dangerous calling! Jesus did that to the Jewish culture of his time, and he got nailed for it. Should we expect anything less?

 

[twiztedseraph]

BillyT92679:

Why should they made cardinals? There hasn’t been a lay cardinal in generations… and no woman can become Pope anyway.

Neither Holy Orders nor an extra-order designation (monsignore/cardinalate) is a right given to anyone. It is the will of the Church.

Frankly, I am tired of people trying to push forward the idea that the Church has to acquiesce to them, rather than people submitting to the will of the Church. This goes for both the far left and the far right.

I, in a way, respect Protestants more. They are at least honest enough to believe that if you truly don’t like what the Church is doing, start your own. Most of them thankfully leave the Bride of Christ alone. Too many Catholics continually try to change her to suit what they want.

If you are going to complain about the Catholic Church, I am sure there is a nice Episcopalian or United Methodist Church that would be far more amenable to what you want.

Aside from your comments about us on the far right, I agree with you. Especially on the last paragraph.

 

[gksaoh]

ChemicalBean:

Not quite…the point of that last post was a response to a response about an earlier post of mine. The respondant suggested I was asserting that “to empathize with someone you had to be part of their group,” which was not my intent at all.

I study, I read, I talk with people, I pray. I listen and lend a hand when I can be of help.

Mostly, I ask uncomfortable questions that make people rethink what they (perhaps) just blindly accepted as truth. Sometimes that ticks people off. I suppose it lights fires under a few tails

Absolutely I realize that!! Through our baptism we all share in the authority of Christ through the gifts of his Holy Spirit. The authority granted to the Pope is different in degree than the authority granted to us, which is precisely why I argue that the Pope is much better equipped to cry out for systematic changes in the world than you or me or even a bunch of us are.

But even the Pope’s authority is limited, and certainly his gifts, his spiritualily, his cultural background and worldview are going to be different than those of his cardinals, which is why he has them as papal advisors and go-to people. And further, it’s obvious that the spirituality of a woman in the US is going to be different from a man in the US, and is also different from a woman in China or Kenya, etc.

I initially said that women cardinals would be an interesting proposition, and as I thought about it more, I decided that it could benefit the Church in how it witnesses the Gospel in the world.

From a business sense - every manager who has climbed a ladder knowsthat she didn’t get there on her own, and if she is going to thrive, she needs the most talented, diverse advisors and employees working for her. With this perspective, the business of the Vatican would be highly enriched with the presence of women cardinals.

From a sacramental sense - I guess women cardinals could help the Church be a much fuller “sacrament” to the world. I would liken it to receiving communion under both species. Sure, you get the full, total, Real Presence of Christ whether you receive the host or the cup or both. But lots of us receive under both species because it becomes a much fuller sacramental sign for us. In the same way, I can see an analogy to having women and men as cardinals. Sure, we believe that the Church is preserved from error in faith and morals regardless. But to us and to the world, the presence of women in the College of Cardinals would help the Church, and it’s teachings and actions, be a much fuller sacramental sign.

Most religiious orders, Jesuits, Franciscans, etc, have a cardinal known as their "cardinal protecter " assigned to them to look after their interests at the Vatican. Again, women get the short end of the stick. Who protects the interests of the half billion Catholic females?

 

[Brendan]

gksaoh:

Most religiious orders, Jesuits, Franciscans, etc, have a cardinal known as their "cardinal protecter " assigned to them to look after their interests at the Vatican. Again, women get the short end of the stick. Who protects the interests of the half billion Catholic females?

The same as for the half billion Catholic males who are not in a religious order, their Bishops.

The reason the religious orders have protectors is that they do not belong to a diocese, and therefore have no Bishop as their natural advocate.

All lay men and women belong by right to a diocese, and therefore have their bishops.

 

[porthos11]

gksaoh:

Once again women have been excluded from the reward system of the Catholic church when Benedict XVI created 15 new cardinals this week.

John Paul II contended that women could not be priests. The office of cardinal is not of Scriptural origin. It is not part of Holy Orders. At times, laymen have been made cardinals. Their function is to advise the pope and elect a successor when the position is vacant.

This system originated only in 1159. It is not written in stone. The pope can make any changes he wishes. He is free to add women to his advisers and electors.

Eventually women will be given a greater voice in the church as they are attaining equality in secular society. Why should the church lag behind?

How is being a cardinal a reward?

 

[BillyT92679]

twiztedseraph:

Aside from your comments about us on the far right, I agree with you. Especially on the last paragraph.

Well, I also have a problem with EDIT radical-traditionalists as well… it’s basically a concept of non serve that exists with both modernists and ultra-traditionalists. The Church should do what I want, rather than me submitting to the Church’s will.

 

[puzzleannie]

If you still labor under the impression that women do not have leadership roles in the Church, get hold of the directory of North American dioceses, check out all the positions not only in chancery and diocesan staff, but in Catholic hospitals, orders, colleges, schools and other institutions that are headed by women. check out how many women are diocesan or parish directors of religious education, heading up Catholic Charities, Catholic schools. I could go on and on. Check out who is in charge of HRD, communications, accounting, insurance and other departments. Active day to day administration is firmly in the hands of women, at least in this country. Get real.

 

[Adam_S]

ChemicalBean:

Mostly, I ask uncomfortable questions that make people rethink what they (perhaps) just blindly accepted as truth. Sometimes that ticks people off. I suppose it lights fires under a few tails

What about people who blindly use cliches?? Lets make this clear, you arent some sort of revolutionary who is challengin te current blindly accepted view, making people rethink and revalue things, people who follow the Church dont ‘blindly accept’, in fact it takes EDIT :nope: a lot more guts to follow the Church than it does to abandon it and try and from a comprmoise so it makes things a little easier.

 

[BillyT92679]

BillyT92679:

Well, I also have a problem with ultra-traditionalists as well… it’s basically a concept of non serve that exists with both extreme progressives and ultra-traditionalists. The Church should do what I want, rather than me submitting to the Church’s will.

I edited my own post.