Women, how should catholic men treat you?

[DarkLight]

For me, just treat me like I’m equal. Don’t put us on a pedestal, we’re just as flawed. Be genuine as possible. Chivalry can be awkward and weird at times, so it’s up to you if you want to open a door lol. Some women like it, some women don’t.

In a more catholic context, I guess just defend us when we’re blamed for men’s lust. Don’t stereotype us, we’re all different.

Chivalry in the old days was only displayed towards women of noble birth. Peasant women were treated like dirt by the nobility.

I am neither an aristocrat nor a princess so I don’t expect chivalry.

I am always reminded when people talk about chivalry, of some of the discussion about it in the 50’s and 60’s from our non-white sisters. At least in the US, when men spoke of how to treat women they meant middle and upper class white women.

We shouldn’t forget that our history also includes the slave women who worked in the fields, the immigrant women who worked long days in unsafe factories, servants who got up at dawn to light the fire and cook breakfast before the family woke.

The problem can be that men who think they need to protect women can end up having issues with women in authority over them. Perhaps it shouldn’t work that way, but it does

Or they think they can choose to protect women from making their own choices that the men don’t approve of.

This is terrible, but not something just for men to be aware of. I will gladly give up my seat to a pregnant woman or an elderly man or woman.

If you really want to confuse people, what about men with children? I know I have given up a seat on the bus to a man carrying an infant.

I have never waited for a man to open the door to let me out unless he asked me to wait while he got the door. That would have been for a particular reason such as ice or something out of the ordinary. Usually men open the door for a woman to get in the car or to go in a building.

I do find that men’s versus women’s dress shoes are sometimes a reason to require assistance. Women get these silly things that aren’t at all decent for any sort of bad terrain.

He shouldn’t jerk the door but generally you can see when someone is attempting to take the door. If you are holding the door, you have to be aware of your surroundings, including when someone is going to take over door duty.

Many men were raised to believe it is impolite to not let the woman enter first or hold the door for the woman. You know this. It isn’t a surprise to you.

I would note I’ve also had this happen when it’s just him, or just him and another person in the group, so “taking over door duty” doesn’t really make sense. It’s extremely clear that it’s not wanting to go through the door.

 

[DarkLight]

If by modern view of women, we mean that they should be given equal opportunity in the workplace and professionally, not in the least. Again, I do not see how having a mindset that women should be treated with respect and dignity can lead to treating women poorly or having the view that women are inferior. If anything, it should lead to the opposite.

I would say it relates to what I said earlier about “protecting women.” Certain behaviors can lead up to the idea that women need to be cared for in something similar to the way we’d care for a child. Or that women need special care because they aren’t capable as men are.

So when we talk about women not being treated well we aren’t being brainwashed feminists. We have actually seen and lived it.

I’ve seen and lived it, and I’m about as standard white american as you can get. But I’ve experienced being told I shouldn’t study certain things because they were for men and it wouldn’t be ok for me to know more on my faith than a man did. I’ve been told I shouldn’t do strength training because men don’t find strong women attractive. I’ve been told it was bad that I cut my hair, because men like long hair - nevermind that I hated taking care of it. When I grew up, the only role for me in life was to be a stay at home parent, to follow my husband wherever he wanted to go. I’ve been told it was wrong of me to be alone with a man, because I was a temptation to him just by being there. This was in the US, and I am only 30.

I’m not the only one on here who’s worked to get where I am. I’ve cleaned toilets and emptied trash cans that I could have fit inside. I’ve moved boxes off a truck ,and you can bet I shared the same jokes and humor the men did - and if I did not it was my faith and not my sex that stopped it. I’m single, so I don’t have a man around to do things for me. And I would rather be treated like it’s ok for me to get dirty and work hard and earn my place than that I have to be helped out for being a woman.

 

[KathleenT]

I assume you mean “he” doesn’t want to go through the door. So what? So what if he’s the only one? Let go of the door and go on with your business.

I think sometimes all have to recognize when we are reacting to events because of our own personal issues, pet peeves, etc. It is extraordinarily unlikely most men hold open doors as a way to “put women in their place” or to feel superior to women. Most do it out of custom and habit. Even if it is to feel superior…so what? That’s their issue and something they need to work out.

 

[KathleenT]

When American men turn 18 they are required to sign up for selective service which means the US government can draft them and send them to war.

It is the reason the age to vote in the US is 18. “Old enough to fight. Old enough to vote.”

Women do not sign up for selective service. Men and women are not treated exactly the same under every law. The duties and obligations of men are much more dire during times of strife and war.

 

[DarkLight]

A lot of customs are rooted in sexist attitudes, even if the people practicing them aren’t intending to be sexist (although in my experience, there is a pretty big correlation). I don’t think you have to be consciously intending to put women down in order to do things that have negative effects on women - all you have to do is stick with the way you’re used to, in many cases.

It comes up in other stuff as well. For example, there are studies that if women communicate the same way men do in the working world, they’re perceived as selfish or abrasive. This actually holds women back, because the traditional feminine styles of communication also aren’t as effective at advocating for yourself or setting out rules. And the people making these judgments would generally say they don’t intend to put women down or hold them back. They’re just used to things being a certain way and don’t see any harm in it. It’s their “custom and habit” that’s that way.

That’s the core of the argument here. I don’t think you have to directly intend to put women in their place, or feel superior, to actually be doing it. What a man taking the door from me is saying to me, whether he realizes it or not, is “my way I was raised supersedes my need to be polite to you”. After all, it’s extremely rude to not acknowledge someone’s holding the door for you by saying thank you and going through the door, but deciding for yourself that you’ll not allow them to make a polite gesture to you because it’s not what you’re used to.

 

[KathleenT]

But you can’t control them being rude…you can only control you.

It is also rude to refuse to give up a door, you don’t own, when someone offers to take it or makes it clear they want to take it.

You can’t control them…only you. What’s the polite and courteous thing for YOU to do in these situations. That’s all that matters, that’s all you can influence.

I have seen plenty of men give up the door they were holding because a woman insisted. So it does go both ways. In some areas of the country, men will be more resistant because they will be judged by others if they don’t hold the door. Maybe they are trying to impress a boss or their mother-in-law.

As I am a woman in business, I am fully aware of what you are talking about. Guess what…it happens with far more things than just sex. Are you from the area? Do you know the right people? Where did you go to school (can be high school on up)? What are your hobbies? Do you have an accent or use odd words? That’s part of life, we just have to learn how to get along with others and help them get along with us. Men have to deal with that stuff too.

Yes, women generally have to learn to communicate differently in business. Normally it is a middle of the road approach where you don’t try to talk like men or talk how you would with your girlfriends. You should be aware, the ones who complain most often about women’s communication styles in the workplace are other women.

We can never make life completely fair. All we can try to do is the right and good thing in situations we find ourselves in.

 

[LilyM]

When American men turn 18 they are required to sign up for selective service which means the US government can draft them and send them to war.

It is the reason the age to vote in the US is 18. “Old enough to fight. Old enough to vote.”

Women do not sign up for selective service. Men and women are not treated exactly the same under every law. The duties and obligations of men are much more dire during times of strife and war.

OK, thanks for explaining. Definitely not an issue of "common courtesy’ or even chivalry, but probably practical issues such as the relative size and strength of men. Really more of a hangover from back in the day when such things mattered more I note that in Israel, famously, women undertake compulsory military service with the menfolk and seem to be able to do at least most of the same tasks.

Unrelated to social niceties such as opening doors, in any case.

 

[DarkLight]

We can never make life completely fair. All we can try to do is the right and good thing in situations we find ourselves in.

That doesn’t mean we’ll stop trying.

I would point out that this thread is here explicitly for the purpose of asking women how Catholic men should treat them. So of course we’re going to say, don’t insist on not going through the door if we’re holding it. Certainly it’s well within our influence to tell that to Catholic men who are asking! I wouldn’t read too much into that how we’d react to someone behaving otherwise. Although I will mention in the workplace I have observed a correlation between men who make a big deal about women not holding doors, and those who talk inappropriately about women or otherwise act like they’re a problem. (Incidentally that’s one bit of talk that shouldn’t be excused even if it’s just among men - a good Catholic man should never talk about a woman in a way that objectifies her, no matter who is listening.)

Yes, women generally have to learn to communicate differently in business. Normally it is a middle of the road approach where you don’t try to talk like men or talk how you would with your girlfriends. You should be aware, the ones who complain most often about women’s communication styles in the workplace are other women.

Women may be the ones complaining, but that doesn’t mean men aren’t making judgments based off of it. I know in the academic field I studied it was a big problem, because if you weren’t as aggressive you’d frequently be talked over. And men wouldn’t necessarily connect it to gender, just maybe think if a woman tried to make herself heard that she was really aggressive and rude. They may not even notice that men behave the same way or even talk over women more than they do other men - they did actual studies of recorded lectures and women were interrupted much more frequently, but men thought that it was equal or even the other way around.

Another issue that came up was that women’s reference letters often portrayed them as weaker candidates, even when the reference writer thought the woman was the stronger candidate. The trouble was that they would spend more time on men writing about their research abilities, while references for women talked also about their friendliness and social skills and didn’t say as much about the research. Since the people reading the letters were looking primarily for people with strong academic and research skills, they picked the candidates whose letters talked the most about their research.

All that is to reinforce the idea that you can be making things unfair without explicitly holding to beliefs that men are less than women. Often without even noticing anything or making any explicit judgments about a specific woman.

 

[KathleenT]

Whether or not women can preform equally in military tasks is neither here nor there.

In the US, women are not subject to the draft. They don’t want to be. And in the fight for “equal” rights that particular duty is always overlooked.

It is the American male trump card during these discussions. And they deserve to have it. Our country can order them into harms way, it cannot order me.

I was a senior when 9/11 occurred. I watched a lot of my male classmates registered for selective service knowing we were deploying our military. Many of them also enlisted. It was a humbling experience.

 

[LilyM]

Whether or not women can preform equally in military tasks is neither here nor there.

In the US, women are not subject to the draft. They don’t want to be. And in the fight for “equal” rights that particular duty is always overlooked.

It is the American male trump card during these discussions. And they deserve to have it. Our country can order them into harms way, it cannot order me.

I was a senior when 9/11 occurred. I watched a lot of my male classmates registered for selective service knowing we were deploying our military. Many of them also enlisted. It was a humbling experience.

Plenty of “them” (women) have volunteered to serve in the US military, including in warzones, and done so with distinction. I’m confident that at least some of “them” would not object to, or would even approve of, an extension of the draft to women. Likewise with at least some of their non-military fellow females.

Doesn’t mean a majority of women want it, or that it’s going to happen. But kinda reinforces one of the points of this thread - women are not a monolithic group with monolithic opinions!

 

[Lea101]

To be honest, I’m not seeing the relevance of the draft in such a conversation.

I’m in Singapore, where men have to serve the country for 2 years in the army. Apparently, there was talk about including women but not everyone was keen on it. Probably because of gender roles 50 years ago. Women who want to can do it, but we aren’t forced by law.

Now with technology, women can serve effectively which brought about new discussions. Some people say that women should be forced to do it as well, while others say that it’s not good to take out a large % of people. That it makes sense for women to contribute to the economy while men are fighting…etc.

All that aside, what do you mean by trump card? I don’t think it makes sense for guys to defend their treatment of us because they have to do something. The guys here say the same things, that it doesn’t matter that we get paid less because we don’t have to do it or that we should not complain about certain instances of sexism.

 

[KathleenT]

By trump card, I mean it points out that women defend sexism when it benefits them and many women aren’t always interested in true “equality.”

Honestly, I am going to bow out of this conversation. I made my points. Everyone else made theirs. We are never going to agree, which is fine.

 

[DarkLight]

There are definitely women who push for everyone to have to register. I think there’s more who think it should be done away with completely. But it’s not noted as much because it’s often seen as an annoying formality - there’s no actual draft or service, just a registration in case we might want to have a draft in the future. Personally I’m in the category that thinks we should ditch it completely.

 

[Lea101]

While I agree there’s some hypocrisy amongst feminists, I don’t think there’s much here.

Most feminists have talked about getting rid of the draft when stuff like this were brought up. These would be the same people who also think women should be in combat, and that chivalry is sexist. The average feminist (or your average woman, really) would argue for equality in almost all areas and then expect chivalry in dating, which I personally don’t really get but whatever works for them I guess.

Their double standards would probably be about popular feminist talking points like affirmative action, though that’s not really the point of the conversation.

 

[Diamandis]

Respect and equality.

 

[dochawk]

What a man taking the door from me is saying to me, whether he realizes it or not, is “my way I was raised supersedes my need to be polite to you”.

When you get to declare what someone "is saying to me, whether he realizes it or not, ", it makes whatever he actually says or does irrelevant.

 

[Elf01]

When you get to declare what someone "is saying to me, whether he realizes it or not, ", it makes whatever he actually says or does irrelevant.

Old proverb. Actions speak louder than words. If someone says they respect me but almost every action says otherwise I won’t believe them.

 

[DarkLight]

When you get to declare what someone "is saying to me, whether he realizes it or not, ", it makes whatever he actually says or does irrelevant.

Eh, it’s related to the larger point I’ve been trying to make. There’s a set of behavior that many of the people acting on it would say is respecting women. But there’s a lot in it of the attitude that the men get to decide how a woman should behave and what she should want and that that’s more important than what the woman actually chooses. And I don’t find that to be respectful, because it’s putting their idea of “what women should want” over actually treating me like an adult capable of making her own decisions.