Women in the Church

[mlchance]

Kendy:

I was just wondering if anyone struggles with accepting that all the decision makers in the church are men?

It is not true that “all the decision makers in the church are men”. For example, I introduce you to Dr. Marcella Colbert, director of the Respect Life Office for one of the larger archdioceses in the U.S.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

We don’t live in perfect times now, we didn’t then, and we won’t until the Second Coming.

Repression? Everybody everywhere has been “repressed” at some time or another.

And along with repression according to U.S. standards of the 21st century (i.e., no right to vote, limited job availability, high mortality rates, short life spans, different educational opportunities, etc.) one can also point to the fact that, in those times, women were NOT the only ones affected for the majority of that time. How long, exactly, did black men have the U.S. vote before women did? 55 years? And of those white men who had had suffrage for the additional 80 some years, how many had been limited by indenture, by lack of money for poll tax, etc?

Historically speaking, MEN as well as women suffered from limited job availability, high mortality rates, short life spans, and different educational opportunities. And they do to this date as well.

You know, it is true that there have always been people who live privileged lives, and those who do not. Of those, in historic times anyway, over the past 6000 years, more have been MALE than female. Of course, for some 600,000 plus years of human society–that is, 100 times longer than the written historical period–we don’t have accurate records, so we don’t know if there were long periods of female domination, female “leadership”, etc. in small tribal or familial groups. Civilization itself is what really brought about the patriarchical society to a great extent. Now, if you really want to eschew all the benefits of society in order to be less “repressed”. . .(only kidding, but this is far more than a simple case of " Big bad men have been putting women down for CENTURIES and it’s about time that WOMEN started putting MEN down for a change, because we DESERVE our chance for power").

For the record, I’m a woman. I don’t need to be more “manly” than a man; I don’t need to have “decision making power” to make ME “important” to the only one that matters: GOD!. If some think the Church is only about “power” and “who DOES THINGS”, I suggest that they really need to study just exactly what the Church IS and what it teaches, especially with the words of Jesus as He washed the feet of His disciples. The Church is about SELFLESS SERVICE, not whether John or Jane “gets to” be POWERFUL.

I don’t think that, because I’m a woman and can’t be a priest, that I am “repressed”, anymore than I would think that, because I am a woman and can have children, that I am “repressed” because I carry the baby, and in most cases still would be the primary caregiver for the child for years to come. It is a sad commentary on contemporary times that too many women think that a woman is “repressed” unless she is out there “earning her living like a man”, “doing the same job as a man”, “thinking like a man”, “getting the power like a man”, etc. You know, caring for children like a woman, doing whatever job one chooses as a woman, thinking like a woman, etc. is not SECOND CLASS. It’s vital to society. . .and we see, in the huge problems of the last 4 decades, in the materialism, the egoism, the general nihilism, angst, and anger of the children of those years, what happens when everything in a family becomes about “mommy NEEDS to be just like a man”. . .and because of that, doesn’t have the time or help, or even the inclination, God help us, to see that the kids NEED to have a Mommy, not two daddies or, in essence, two “meal tickets”.

 

[Lorarose]

When God chose to implement his role for salvation - He chose to accomplish this through a woman.

What was God telling us about women when He did this?

Sometimes it’s hard to say, but I know in our modern society the role of mother is often looked down upon.
It is easy to look at what men are doing and think it is “more” than being a mother.

The message of Christ has always been counter to the logic of the world however. The greatest being in the universe became a poor humble infant.
He was silent when He was ridiculed. He allowed Himself to be tortured and murdered as an act of love.
Mary’s role as mother - her humility and selflessness are a model for christians as well.

As far as the priesthood goes…Jesus made a decision. He chose 12 men. When he instituted the eucharistic sacrifice, He did it with these 12 men present and said to them “do this in memory of me”
So…similar to how God chose Aaron and his sons…Jesus chose men to fulfill this role.
Many others here will do a better job than I could in examining why Jesus did this, but for me personally I trust Jesus enough to know He must have good reasons.

If Jesus wanted women to be priests I think He would have placed His mother front and center.

Motherhood is a beautiful calling. Not just physical motherhood - but also the act of “mothering” others. Nurturing them, loving them, attending to their needs.
There are many ways to respond to this calling but I do not think it is in any way a “lesser” calling than that of the male priesthood.

 

[gardenswithkids]

Kendy:

If I recall, I not only read it, but I posted a follow-up question about a passage from the document. (I am starting to feel like you guys think I just don’t read ).

Sorry, it’s been a few days since I followed that thread; I just glanced over it to get the link to post. No, it’s not you but me who has the reading problem.

Kendy:

Anyway, I am not convinced that spiritual motherhood excludes have decision making authority.

Nor am I. In fact there are many women over the centuries who have done that. I remember seeing a wall of portraits of CEO’s in a hospital where I worked. For several decades the CEO’s were women in nun’s habits, until it got to the 1970’s-- then the portrait changed to men in suits.

 

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

I’m sorry you feel that way. It can be frustrating accepting God’s ways. Personally, my frustration is with the commandment to “honor thy father and mother”—that has been difficult for me at times.

Yes, this is definitely worse than the time God wanted me to break up with the really cute med student .

Sherlock:

Mea culpa----I’m really sorry, Kendy. I wasn’t trying to be offensive–perhaps it comes naturally to me. I do tend to be quite literal, and if someone writes something that isn’t literally accurate, my tendency is to jump on it (which, I’ll freely admit, is NOT a good thing). Please accept my apologies. But to be honest, I’m not sure what historical repression by men has to do with this subject—again, what matters is what Christianity teaches about the dignity of men and women. That people don’t always practice it or misunderstand it does not invalidate the Christian model…

Apology accepted . I think they are related, like the difference between brutal and benevolent dictatorship.

Sherlock:

Wow—you’ve only gotten the TOB recommendation from me ONCE?! How have you managed to escape me for so long?! It seems like I’m always pushing it…well, obviously I’ve done so in threads that you haven’t visited.

Well, it’s now on my very long reading list.

 

[Kendy]

We don’t live in perfect times now, we didn’t then, and we won’t until the Second Coming.

Repression? Everybody everywhere has been “repressed” at some time or another.

And along with repression according to U.S. standards of the 21st century (i.e., no right to vote, limited job availability, high mortality rates, short life spans, different educational opportunities, etc.) one can also point to the fact that, in those times, women were NOT the only ones affected for the majority of that time. How long, exactly, did black men have the U.S. vote before women did? 55 years? And of those white men who had had suffrage for the additional 80 some years, how many had been limited by indenture, by lack of money for poll tax, etc?

Historically speaking, MEN as well as women suffered from limited job availability, high mortality rates, short life spans, and different educational opportunities. And they do to this date as well.

You know, it is true that there have always been people who live privileged lives, and those who do not. Of those, in historic times anyway, over the past 6000 years, more have been MALE than female. Of course, for some 600,000 plus years of human society–that is, 100 times longer than the written historical period–we don’t have accurate records, so we don’t know if there were long periods of female domination, female “leadership”, etc. in small tribal or familial groups. Civilization itself is what really brought about the patriarchical society to a great extent. Now, if you really want to eschew all the benefits of society in order to be less “repressed”. . .(only kidding, but this is far more than a simple case of " Big bad men have been putting women down for CENTURIES and it’s about time that WOMEN started putting MEN down for a change, because we DESERVE our chance for power

Kendy: Yes, I realize that we have all been “wrong.” If you can figure out a way to blame the church for it, let me know. (J/K)

For the record, I’m a woman. I don’t need to be more “manly” than a man; I don’t need to have “decision making power” to make ME “important” to the only one that matters: GOD!. If some think the Church is only about “power” and “who DOES THINGS”, I suggest that they really need to study just exactly what the Church IS and what it teaches, especially with the words of Jesus as He washed the feet of His disciples. The Church is about SELFLESS SERVICE, not whether John or Jane “gets to” be POWERFUL. ").

**Kendy: Believe it or not, I don’t hate men, nor do I want to stick it to them, nor do I want to be one. **

I don’t think that, because I’m a woman and can’t be a priest, that I am “repressed”, anymore than I would think that, because I am a woman and can have children, that I am “repressed” because I carry the baby, and in most cases still would be the primary caregiver for the child for years to come. It is a sad commentary on contemporary times that too many women think that a woman is “repressed” unless she is out there “earning her living like a man”, “doing the same job as a man”, “thinking like a man”, “getting the power like a man”, etc. You know, caring for children like a woman, doing whatever job one chooses as a woman, thinking like a woman, etc. is not SECOND CLASS. It’s vital to society. . .and we see, in the huge problems of the last 4 decades, in the materialism, the egoism, the general nihilism, angst, and anger of the children of those years, what happens when everything in a family becomes about “mommy NEEDS to be just like a man”. . .and because of that, doesn’t have the time or help, or even the inclination, God help us, to see that the kids NEED to have a Mommy, not two daddies or, in essence, two “meal tickets”.

Kendy: You know what, I don’t generally feel repressed either. However, like I said I have a healthy suspicion of patriarchy. And BTW, I don’t think women who are stay at home moms are second class citizens. That’s a different conversation but since you brought it up, I think raising your children is an important job. But since ordained ministers in the church are celibate this would in no way affect children.
Kendy

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

Yes, this is definitely worse than the time God wanted me to break up with the really cute med student

Oh, I dunno, that sounds like quite a sacrifice…you’ll have to tell us about that sometime

Kendy:

Apology accepted . I think they are related, like the difference between brutal and benevolent dictatorship.

Well, I can’t agree with that assessment, however, that’s probably a subject for another time, another thread.

Kendy:

Well, it’s now on my very long reading list.

I’ve got something better to suggest! Go to nakedwithoutshame.com which is the website for The Gift Foundation. There you can order a 10-audio Cd set by Christopher West entitled, “Naked Without Shame: A Crash Course in the Theology of the Body” for only $3.90. I repeat, three dollars and 90 cents! It’s an excellent introduction, and Christopher West’s enthusiasm is contagious.

 

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

Oh, I dunno, that sounds like quite a sacrifice…you’ll have to tell us about that sometime

Well, I can’t agree with that assessment, however, that’s probably a subject for another time, another thread.

I’ve got something better to suggest! Go to nakedwithoutshame.com which is the website for The Gift Foundation. There you can order a 10-audio Cd set by Christopher West entitled, “Naked Without Shame: A Crash Course in the Theology of the Body” for only $3.90. I repeat, three dollars and 90 cents! It’s an excellent introduction, and Christopher West’s enthusiasm is contagious.

 

[StCsDavid]

Simply put, the priesthood is not a level of achievement. It is a role in The Church that a select few men are called to. I can’t be a priest, either. I didn’t receive the call. It’s not a crisis in confidence in a woman’s ability to do the job. It’s not a last bastion of the “He-man-woman-hater’s-club” as we have golf for that. Candidly, women have much more important roles in The Church than becoming priests. I don’t get to bring forth life into the world. I’m not capable of motherly love. I may be the head of my household, but my wife is the neck. Notice we honor Mary way more than Joseph. Notice it was the women who were with Christ at the crucifixion as all the men, save John, had gone into hiding.

What issues do you believe the men have botched for women that you feel would have been better decided if women had been running the show?

 

[BeluvdLily]

I don’t have a problem with it at all. I find it kind of comforting that at least male/female roles have stayed traditional in the Church when in the rest of the world they are changing so much.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to return to a world where women have no rights but sometimes as a woman I really don’t want to have to work and compete with men and be expected to “do it and have it all”. To me, women and men are made differently to fulfill different roles.

I’m a stay at home mom and wife and I really love that my husband is willing to fulfill his role of supporting the family and allow me to fulfill mine of nurturing and caring for the family. For us it just works. Just as this has worked for the church all of these years. I feel protected and loved and cherished as a result of this in my marriage.

It’s funny for me to feel this way about the Church in general because I’ve never been one for authority in any fashion but within the Catholic Church I find it reassuring and it has really drawn me to the Church.

Amie

 

[Kendy]

StCsDavid:

Simply put, the priesthood is not a level of achievement. It is a role in The Church that a select few men are called to. I can’t be a priest, either. I didn’t receive the call. It’s not a crisis in confidence in a woman’s ability to do the job. It’s not a last bastion of the “He-man-woman-hater’s-club” as we have golf for that. Candidly, women have much more important roles in The Church than becoming priests. I don’t get to bring forth life into the world. I’m not capable of motherly love. I may be the head of my household, but my wife is the neck. Notice we honor Mary way more than Joseph. Notice it was the women who were with Christ at the crucifixion as all the men, save John, had gone into hiding.

What issues do you believe the men have botched for women that you feel would have been better decided if women had been running the show?

To say that men have botched certain issues that women will fix is to say that women need to bring their womanliness to the priesthood. Some feminist used this argument when they wanted to get women elected to public offices. They promised universal health care, the end of war, and all other sorts of goodies. We know that women in public office have not delivered these goodies. In fact, Hillary Clinton is busily trying to convince us that she can be tough on terror.

I would not attribute any decisions that the church has made to maleness although it’s possible that decisions might have been differently. However, that, as far as I am concerned, is irrelevant. The issue is to what extent is it JUST to exclude someone from a position that he or she is capable of doing, whether that position be something that is considered lofty, like the presidency, or not considered so lofty, like street sweeping.

It’s seems to me that one’s aptitude (and perhaps calling) for a particular task is the only just determinant of one’s candidancy for that job. On average, women are not good candidates for jobs that require heavy lifting. Thus, it doesn’t seem unjust that most women would be denied these jobs since they might injure themselves and others around them; or at the very least, they might not perform the task as efficiently. As for men, they cannot have babies because they don’t have uteri. There’s nothing I can to help them in that since I don’t produce uteri and the task of reproduction requires them. However, I think many men are very capable of nurturing. In fact, I dated a single father who was a much better nurturer than his daughter’s mother. I know he would have much prefered it (had we gotten married) that I was the bread and he, the stay at home dad. On the other hand, on average, women tend to be more nurturing than men, and therefore, are going to be more inclined to choose more nurturing roles in life. There is no injustice in this.

I am not one of those people who grumble about the fact that there are fewer women in Physics department. On average, men have better spatial abilities and are much more likely to be interested in vocations where that is called. Just like women dominate departments of social work at universities since they are more likely to accept pay cuts in exchange of working with and nurturing other people. I am okay with these distributions to the extent that they don’t penalize those at the end of the curve. I would be very angry if universities used this data to exclude capable women from physics departments or capable men from social work departments. This would unfairly penalize persons whose aptitude and passions are different from the norm.

Likewise, I am still baffled as to what aptitude, what “fatherliness” that men bring to the priesthood that makes it unsuitable for women without violating the principle of justice as I just described it.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

BeluvdLily:

I don’t have a problem with it at all. I find it kind of comforting that at least male/female roles have stayed traditional in the Church when in the rest of the world they are changing so much.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to return to a world where women have no rights but sometimes as a woman I really don’t want to have to work and compete with men and be expected to “do it and have it all”. To me, women and men are made differently to fulfill different roles.

I’m a stay at home mom and wife and I really love that my husband is willing to fulfill his role of supporting the family and allow me to fulfill mine of nurturing and caring for the family. For us it just works. Just as this has worked for the church all of these years. I feel protected and loved and cherished as a result of this in my marriage.

It’s funny for me to feel this way about the Church in general because I’ve never been one for authority in any fashion but within the Catholic Church I find it reassuring and it has really drawn me to the Church.

Amie

I hope you feel no pressure from me, or any other feminists, to do anything other than that which you enjoy and believe that God has called you to do. I have never implied that there is any wrong in choosing to be a stay at home mom.

However, it’s not a decision I would make in the long term. I plan to stay at home with my children when they are young, but I have passions for other things and wouldn’t want to feel pressured not to pursue those things.

Kendy

 

[YinYangMom]

Kendy:

Likewise, I am still baffled as to what aptitude, what “fatherliness” that men bring to the priesthood that makes it unsuitable for women without violating the principle of justice as I just described it.

I’m baffled as to why anyone would question God’s plan. Where, anywhere, is there any indication that Jesus chose His twelve based on ‘principles of justice’? Why would you expect the Church to undo that which Christ set in motion?

Question His motives all you want, but don’t expect the Church to change anything He established…it is not within Her power to do so. The Church preserves, protects and promulgates “all truth” which the Holy Spirit revealed to the founding Apostles on Pentecost (see John 16:7-15).

A female cannot act in persona Christe because of her gender, plain and simple. Christ did not come into our world as a female, but He did come into the world because of a female. Mary is the ultimate example of how beautiful, powerful and essential women are to God’s plan. We should all be honored and consider ourselves blessed to be participants in God’s creative powers in bringing to the world new life, new souls for God. JPIIs writings on this are empowering.

Priests are to be prayed over, protected, supported, respected, honored for the sacrifices they make in keeping Christ present in this world, but to envy them? That is just wrong. Envy is not in God’s plan.

 

[CARose]

Kendy:

…I have never implied that there is any wrong in choosing to be a stay at home mom.

However, it’s not a decision I would make in the long term. I plan to stay at home with my children when they are young, but I have passions for other things and wouldn’t want to feel pressured not to pursue those things.

You sound like me before I had my daughter. I was very focused on my career and quite successful at it to boot. But after she was born, I found myself becoming more and more torn by the conflicting pulls on my time and priorities. Finally, when she was 4 1/2, I quit my job to take a “brief break” from which I’ve only just now returned to work, and part-time at that. That was nearly 10 years ago, and I wouldn’t be returning to work even now, if finances allowed. What I’ve learned is that the older they get, the more they need you, even if it’s in a different way. As she gets older, it’s more along the lines of be there for the little minutes that crop up, be there to help her interpret the world according to the teachings of Christ, and not according to the teachings of the society (especially as pertains to her budding sexuality).

CARose

 

[Sherlock]

Kendy:

However, that, as far as I am concerned, is irrelevant. The issue is to what extent is it JUST to exclude someone from a position that he or she is capable of doing, whether that position be something that is considered lofty, like the presidency, or not considered so lofty, like street sweeping.

But women simply aren’t capable of being priests. They aren’t men—and Jesus chose only men. To say that it doesn’t matter if priests are men or women is to say that gender isn’t important; that Jesus being male is unimportant; that Jesus’s referring to God the Father as Father is unimportant. The design of our bodies, male and female, reveals to us something of the nature of God and His relationship with His creatures. He creates externally, outside of Himself: that is why the “type” of the human race is the female, as we are to be receptive to God. (And that is why Mary is revered as the most beautiful created being, as she was perfectly receptive.) During the consecration, the priest becomes another Christ: “in persona Christi”. He—he!—says, “This is My Body…This is My Blood”. The priest’s gender is no more arbitrary than Jesus’s gender is arbitrary.

Kendy:

It’s seems to me that one’s aptitude (and perhaps calling) for a particular task is the only just determinant of one’s candidancy for that job. On average, women are not good candidates for jobs that require heavy lifting. Thus, it doesn’t seem unjust that most women would be denied these jobs since they might injure themselves and others around them; or at the very least, they might not perform the task as efficiently. As for men, they cannot have babies because they don’t have uteri. There’s nothing I can to help them in that since I don’t produce uteri and the task of reproduction requires them. However, I think many men are very capable of nurturing. In fact, I dated a single father who was a much better nurturer than his daughter’s mother. I know he would have much prefered it (had we gotten married) that I was the bread and he, the stay at home dad. On the other hand, on average, women tend to be more nurturing than men, and therefore, are going to be more inclined to choose more nurturing roles in life. There is no injustice in this.

I am not one of those people who grumble about the fact that there are fewer women in Physics department. On average, men have better spatial abilities and are much more likely to be interested in vocations where that is called. Just like women dominate departments of social work at universities since they are more likely to accept pay cuts in exchange of working with and nurturing other people. I am okay with these distributions to the extent that they don’t penalize those at the end of the curve. I would be very angry if universities used this data to exclude capable women from physics departments or capable men from social work departments. This would unfairly penalize persons whose aptitude and passions are different from the norm.

I agree with everything you say—but the priesthood is not a “right”, or even a career choice. It is a calling from God, and God chose men. There is nothing about this that detracts from the dignity of women.

Kendy:

Likewise, I am still baffled as to what aptitude, what “fatherliness” that men bring to the priesthood that makes it unsuitable for women without violating the principle of justice as I just described it.

Women can’t be fathers, any more than fathers can be mothers. There’s no injustice here. Perhaps, lacking a positive experience with a really good priest, this might be hard to grasp, but the priest really is a kind of spiritual father, guiding protecting his flock in a very real, very masculine way.

 

[Kendy]

Lux_et_veritas:

This statement, highlighted in red suggests to me that you have not had an opportunity to read Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, written by Pope John Paul II, and the related Responsum ad Dubium (a clarification), written by the former Cardinal Ratzinger back in 1994 and 1995 respectively. The question is, how much time have you spent reflecting on why the Church’s position is what it is? This is a question I posed to a relative who has a PhD in sociology who took the same line as you did, but she was a lapsed Catholic. I suggested with all her schooling she should know better than to attack a position without first thoroughly studying that position. I would invite you to do the same and see where it leads. But, as I told her, you must also pray for the gift of understanding as well. It must be studied with a humble and open mind.

Anyone who is to study the subject with any seriousness, would start with the two documents I provided in the links above, then dissect any particular part of it to understand it better, in further discussion.

The Church has really never stated that it requires some kind of masculine skills. I wouldn’t even want to explain it here as it would take away from the fine job done by Pope John Paul II when he made a good effort to help Catholics understand the Church’s position.

A few comments above and beyond what JPII had to say though…

Some will argue that Jesus was merely being politically correct for his time in selecting only Men in his day. They claim that if he were here today, he would have chosen women, as well. This borders on heretical blasphemy if it is not outrightly so and here is why: God cannot be compelled to do anything because the act of being compelled suggests an imperfection. God would not be exercising perfect free will if he were compelled. Since God cannot be imperfect, He cannot be compelled, especially by imperfect beings such as ourselves.

Furthermore, since Jesus was God and because God is all knowing - that is, he knows all that happened in the past, all that happens as I write this, and all that will happen in the future - he could foresee the disquiet caused as a result of his only selecting Men at the time. If He had wanted women, He could easily have avoided the disquiet by selecting them as apostles back then, but He did not. Not his mother, not Mary Magdalen or any other prominent females of scripture. He broke the “PC” rules more than once, performing miracles on the Sabbath, for example, sitting to eat with a tax collector, and by simply being born into poverty. What would it have been to choose females to be among the apostles in his day?

Thank you for sharing these documents with me, Lux. I have read the documents, and if I may summarize the argument.

Women cannot be ordained because it would violate the example set by Christ in scripture (a decision He made freely and sovereignly), and it would violate the tradtion established by the apostles. That women cannot be ordained is not evidence of their inferiority since the Holy Mother, who is clearly held in high esteem, was not called to be an apostle. Furthermore, the real position of esteem in the church is not ministry but sainthood, from which women are not excluded. Women are called to fulfill their very admirable roles in life, particularly, the role of motherhood. This is the church’s teaching and believers are called to assent.

I am afraid I can only respond as I responded before. I understand the church’s teaching. I do not like it. I have no intention on protesting it. I appreciate your and the many other attempts to persuade me of the wisdom of this. But my post-enlightenment worldview, which prizes merit and individuality makes it very difficult to accept this gleefully.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

YinYangMom:

Priests are to be prayed over, protected, supported, respected, honored for the sacrifices they make in keeping Christ present in this world, but to envy them? That is just wrong. Envy is not in God’s plan.

I just want to say that I have no feelings of envy…not penis envy…not priesthood envy. I don’t “feel called” to priesthood nor do I long to be called to it.

Kendy

 

[Kendy]

Sherlock:

But women simply aren’t capable of being priests. They aren’t men—and Jesus chose only men. To say that it doesn’t matter if priests are men or women is to say that gender isn’t important; that Jesus being male is unimportant; that Jesus’s referring to God the Father as Father is unimportant. The design of our bodies, male and female, reveals to us something of the nature of God and His relationship with His creatures. He creates externally, outside of Himself: that is why the “type” of the human race is the female, as we are to be receptive to God. (And that is why Mary is revered as the most beautiful created being, as she was perfectly receptive.) During the consecration, the priest becomes another Christ: “in persona Christi”. He—he!—says, “This is My Body…This is My Blood”. The priest’s gender is no more arbitrary than Jesus’s gender is arbitrary.

I suspect the answer to this question probably in the book you have twice recommemded, but are you saying that woman are, or called to receptive to God in a way men are not capable or called to?

Sherlock:

Women can’t be fathers, any more than fathers can be mothers. There’s no injustice here. Perhaps, lacking a positive experience with a really good priest, this might be hard to grasp, but the priest really is a kind of spiritual father, guiding protecting his flock in a very real, very masculine way.

I really do need you to elaborate on this (maybe, it’s in the book), but I am having trouble visualize the masculinity of the priest’s job. If we put aside the sacramental role, how does the priest guide and protect in a way that a woman is unable to? I know that out of desperation, due to the shortage of priest, the catholic church now has pastoral coordinators (maybe, they have had them in the past as well, but that wasn’t how it was described), who do everything but lead Mass. These women guide and protect in the same way a priest pastor would. They plan lithurgies, they counsel parishoners (sp?), they plan marriages and baptism, they visit the sick, the call the air conditioner repair person. They perform this masculine job in every way other than say Mass.

Kendy

Kendy

 

[CARose]

Kendy,

It’s been interesting watching you go through various teachings of the Church over the past several days, wrestling with one after another. Are you tending towards accepting the Church or not at this point?

I know that many of the issues you’re working through were once items of contention for me. For example, I come from a Matriarchal family. My Grandmother ran a corporation she inherited from her father (only son died as a young man, leaving only 3 daughters, my Grandmother eventually took over the running of a business when “Ladies” didn’t even drive). She even went so far as to fire her husband when she felt he wasn’t doing the job as needed by the company.

Shortly before their divorce, my mother returned to the working world and ended up extremely successful, purchasing for herself a home in one of the nicest neighborhoods in the SF Bay Area. I finished a degree in BioChemistry with honors and have always loved Math, a subject women are “supposed” to find difficult.

So, accepting the gender traditional roles put forth by the Church were an anathema to me. But, the Holy Spirit has led me to acceptance, gently at times, and in amazingly huge leaps at other times. What I have found necessary along the way, at break-through moments, has been a willingness to accept Christ in humility, to accept that His Word be done, not my will.

This is where railing against “the injustice done by Christ against women” not only does us no go, it actually makes it more difficult for us to be open to the Fullness of the Truth that we seek.

For Christ is God, God is Truth and Justice and it is against His very Nature to create an Injustice. Therefore, it is impossible that He could have made an error that would in Any way contribute to the undermining of Women over the centuries. Therefore, any thinking that suggest this to be the case, must contain the error in logic, not the actions of Christ himself.

This is where humility is required, where we need to look at ourselves.

God Bless you as you continue to wrestle with this and the many truths you are working through.

CARose

 

[Kendy]

CARose:

Kendy,

It’s been interesting watching you go through various teachings of the Church over the past several days, wrestling with one after another. Are you tending towards accepting the Church or not at this point?

Oh, you must have missed the Ok, You Win! thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=92022

CARose:

I know that many of the issues you’re working through were once items of contention for me. For example, I come from a Matriarchal family. My Grandmother ran a corporation she inherited from her father (only son died as a young man, leaving only 3 daughters, my Grandmother eventually took over the running of a business when “Ladies” didn’t even drive). She even went so far as to fire her husband when she felt he wasn’t doing the job as needed by the company.

Shortly before their divorce, my mother returned to the working world and ended up extremely successful, purchasing for herself a home in one of the nicest neighborhoods in the SF Bay Area. I finished a degree in BioChemistry with honors and have always loved Math, a subject women are “supposed” to find difficult.

So, accepting the gender traditional roles put forth by the Church were an anathema to me. But, the Holy Spirit has led me to acceptance, gently at times, and in amazingly huge leaps at other times. What I have found necessary along the way, at break-through moments, has been a willingness to accept Christ in humility, to accept that His Word be done, not my will.

This is where railing against “the injustice done by Christ against women” not only does us no go, it actually makes it more difficult for us to be open to the Fullness of the Truth that we seek.

For Christ is God, God is Truth and Justice and it is against His very Nature to create an Injustice. Therefore, it is impossible that He could have made an error that would in Any way contribute to the undermining of Women over the centuries. Therefore, any thinking that suggest this to be the case, must contain the error in logic, not the actions of Christ himself.

This is where humility is required, where we need to look at ourselves.

God Bless you as you continue to wrestle with this and the many truths you are working through.

CARose

Thank you for your thoughful message CaRose. I appreciate them.

Kendy