Women Lectors and EMHC's

[otjm]

It is a result of secular culture seeping into Catholic culture. Also feminism influencing men to act sheepish or apologetic for being men.

Many Catholic men don’t know how to act like men and step up to the plate, heck half the time they need to be dragged to Mass or Parish events.

You must belong to an interesting parish. In my parish, I find that the men are no more nor less willing to be involved in parish activities. I can’t speak to many Catholic men, as my experience is limited to the parishes I ahve been involved in, but I can’t think of any parish I have been involved with that didn’t have a significant number of men involved.

Last night I got into a theological discussion with a Catholic lady, with the husband sitting there not saying a word. He pretty much just begged us to go to another subject. It was embarrassing as she was the one who was discussing the faith, like a good Catholic woman, yet the man just stood there waiting for an escape.

And I would suggest that unless you asked him why he did not participate, that the only thing you have is his non-participation; from that you are reading in as to why he did not participate. I would guess that within about 2 to 3 mintues I could come up with 5 to 10 possible reasons he did not join in, none of them having anything to do with being emasculated.

It is all to easy to read our own prejudices into other people. Care needs to be taken to find out why people do what they do (or don’t do), rather than presuming that they act a certain way because we believe that is why they do (or don’t). As to being active in any given ministry - e.g. Knights of Columbus, RCIA sponsor, EMHC, landscape maintenance, or whatever, some of the attendance is driven - or not driven - by the pastor and/or assistant priests and staff. Often, all it takes to get a man involved in something is to ask him. If he isn’t asked, too often he will not volunteer; particularly if there is an appearance that those involved were selected. Further, some of the positions are by invitation or selection as opposed to volunteering.

 

[otjm]

Instituted ministers (who are men only) should, ideally, do the reading and be EMHCs if required.

From the 2002 GIRM:

“101. In the absence of an instituted lector, other laypersons may be commissioned to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture.”

From the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
“[155.] In addition to the ordinary ministers there is the formally instituted acolyte, who by virtue of his institution is an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion even outside the celebration of Mass. If, moreover, reasons of real necessity prompt it, another lay member of Christ’s faithful may also be delegated by the diocesan Bishop, in accordance with the norm of law,[256] for one occasion or for a specified time, and an appropriate formula of blessing may be used for the occasion.”

Despite these official instructions there is a widespread failure to follow them. Not many bishops institute ministers who are not seminarians. At the Vatican’s Midnight Mass, at least for the last five years, one reading has been by an instituted lector and the other by a woman. I find this disappointing and confusing.

It seems from what I have heard and observed that there may be only two bishops in the US who are instituting men as lectors and/or accolytes - Vasa, in Eastern Oregon being one of them - who are not on track for ordination either to the priesthood or permanent diaconite. I am not sure that the instructions are all that clear that Rome is requesting or persuing with any emphasis the institution of men to these positions, particularly as they are part of the process leading to ordination. Perhaps if Rome was more clear?

 

[KCT]

If the Church has allowed it, I’m fine with it.

However, I don’t feel called to do either. —KCT

 

[otjm]

Why is it that every time one of these discussions comes up, we get a couple anecdotes, followed by sweeping, broad-brushed statements that it’s all the result of creeping feminism and men not being men.

Hogwash!!

I’ve been part of numerous parishes, and I have yet to encounter a single one where these generalizations hold true. Each has had its share of strong, devoted, and masculine men along with strong, devoted women. Each also contained its fair share of “pew potatoes” who seemed not to care less one way or another.

Since the Church sanctions both men and women for either position, to be proclaiming women to be having some sort of “feminist agenda” for wanting to serve God in a way in which they are capable is truly insulting. To accuse men of being wimpy, when plenty of men are doing the same things, as approved by the Church, is equally insulting.

This constant questioning of people’s motives when they are doing what the Church specifically allows gets really old. If you don’t feel comfortable or called to do something, by all means don’t do it. But PLEASE stop this condemnation by anecdote of people who are showing their love of God through vounteering for service.

As many in the “traditionalist” camp are so fond of saying, “the liturgy isn’t your private property.”

Touche!

 

[rwoehmke]

I am going to stick my neck out a little here. Not too many years ago one rarely found men who were teachers or nurses. Male religous were found in both roles of course, but your everyday average guy? No way! That has changed in recent times. When it comes to interest in religion I think the same dynamic held. I don’t know what it was, but guys would usher and some even went on retreats, but for the average Joe it was football and other sports, cars and such. Interest in things religous were far down the list. Except for the priests that was woman territory. I think like nursing and teaching things are changing, but the change has not gotten as far yet.

 

[whatevergirl]

I’m an EEM…but if the Church decided against women performing these tasks…I would follow. I was asked to do it by one of our nuns, though…so I felt like God was asking me through her. Is that wrong to think this?

 

[Contarini]

I am not here to incite a riot or start any fights so please don’t become argumentative. I just want to know if I am the only woman who believes we should not be doing these things. I really believe that if we only allowed men to do these things more men would volunteer or feel called to this ministry. I also can’t help but feel this is only a symptom of our culture emasculating men and trivializing their importance within the family.

The attitude “I will only do this if women can’t” is a sinful one and should not be pandered to.

After all, a man is supposed to be the spiritual head of the household isn’t he?

In the sense of giving up himself for his wife just as Christ did for the Church, sure. . . . I don’t think a man who has that attitude is going to refuse to serve as a reader or EMHC because his masculine ego is offended by having to work with women on an equal footing. Someone like that is clearly not acting as a “head” in the sense St. Paul meant.

Edwin

 

[BlestOne]

The attitude “I will only do this if women can’t” is a sinful one and should not be pandered to.
Edwin… I am a woman…

In the sense of giving up himself for his wife just as Christ did for the Church, sure. . . . I don’t think a man who has that attitude is going to refuse to serve as a reader or EMHC because his masculine ego is offended by having to work with women on an equal footing. Someone like that is clearly not acting as a “head” in the sense St. Paul meant.
I agree, a man that is likely to serve is not going to be offended at working with women. That is a secure man, but what about men that I described as emasculated by our society? They might not want to do something women are welcome to do too.
Edwin

 

[John_Lilburne]

It seems from what I have heard and observed that there may be only two bishops in the US who are instituting men as lectors and/or accolytes - Vasa, in Eastern Oregon being one of them - who are not on track for ordination either to the priesthood or permanent diaconite. I am not sure that the instructions are all that clear that Rome is requesting or persuing with any emphasis the institution of men to these positions, particularly as they are part of the process leading to ordination. Perhaps if Rome was more clear?

It would be good if Rome were more clear. The 1984 Ceremonial of Bishops has “31 … But in celebrations presided over by the bishop it is fitting that readers formally instituted proclaim the readings …”. But how many bishops instituted enough lectors so this will happen? Even when Benedict XVI has hundreds available how often does he do what the liturgical book describes as fitting? So confusing signals.

 

[BlestOne]

Similar to the current expression that “50 is the new 40”, apparently "orthodox is the new “liberal”. The term gets misappropriated to very narrowly define only one who prefers a specific 400 year tradition, and then those who are “merely” in line with the Church’s Big-T Traditions are no longer good enough to be “real” Catholics.

How very sad for our Church.

This is exactly what I was hoping to avoid…

I was not implying or stating that I am right or wrong, or that those who think one way or another are good or evil. I am pondering the roles of men and women within the church. I think everyone can agree that in most parishes, there are the same men and women who seem to volunteer for everything, and the predominance of women who do the volunteering. I think we can all agree that in a perfect world, there would be a proportionate number of volunteers from either gender. This is not directed at ncjohn… this is a general statement.

 

[ncjohn]

This is exactly what I was hoping to avoid…

I was not implying or stating that I am right or wrong, or that those who think one way or another are good or evil. I am pondering the roles of men and women within the church. I think everyone can agree that in most parishes, there are the same men and women who seem to volunteer for everything, and the predominance of women who do the volunteering. I think we can all agree that in a perfect world, there would be a proportionate number of volunteers from either gender. This is not directed at ncjohn… this is a general statement.

I know you were trying to avoid that, and it’s sad that so many threads like this immediately degenerate into that.

Quote: BlestOne
I think everyone can agree that in most parishes, there are the same men and women who seem to volunteer for everything, and the predominance of women who do the volunteering.

I will agree with the part that in most parishes it is usually the same small group that volunteers for everything. That is the nature of membership in pretty much any organization though. Most people just tend to join in to things to reap benefits rather than to actually participate.

I disagree though on the second part that there is a preponderance of women as the norm. Again, like most here, my evidence is anecdotal, but I have never found any significant preponderance by gender in any of the parishes I have been part of. Some specific ministries seem to lean more in one direction, such as maybe bereavement and sacristans for example (with ushers probably leaning the other way), but I have just not seen any such differences in either the reading or EMHC ministries.

I think the key is that people are called to different things, and if they are called to a licit ministry for them, they should follow the calling. To me, the danger of ignoring a calling from the Spirit without valid reason is a greater problem.

Peace to you BlestOne.

 

[scylla]

Why is it that every time one of these discussions comes up, we get a couple anecdotes, followed by sweeping, broad-brushed statements that it’s all the result of creeping feminism and men not being men.

Hogwash!!

I’ve been part of numerous parishes, and I have yet to encounter a single one where these generalizations hold true. Each has had its share of strong, devoted, and masculine men along with strong, devoted women. Each also contained its fair share of “pew potatoes” who seemed not to care less one way or another.

Hmm…
To refute my position which was posted using personal experience, I get a response complaining against it using personal experience. Or in other words, nuh uhh… that’s hogwash. Without any proof against it.
I can say hogwash to you too, but I am a man so I wont respond that way.

How about this…
The Gay Lesbian and Feminist groups love to promote women taking the positions of men as evidenced by the following links…
romancatholicwomenpriests.org/links.htm

Real men stand up for truth and volunteer to do what a man should do. Real women who understand that there is dignity in being a woman embrace their femininity and do not desire to fill the place of a man.

So do you think this is without basis then all the people at this conference linked must be there based on lies…
Mens Conference

Somebody better tell Father Corapi that he is wasting his time at that conference. There is no emasculation of the male role in the Church going on, everything is well and good.
I better tell the sister who runs my Church here in California to keep encouraging female priests and keep up the liturgical dancing as all is well.

I am not discussing if it is permissible or not, that is not the point of this discussion. Everyone knows it is permissible, just as it is permissible for me to not go to daily mass. I am talking about what is good.

God Bless and please pray and see how you can help fight against the horrible dissent and subversive teaching going on in countless parishes around the world.
Scylla

 

[gospel_life]

Hmm…
To refute my position which was posted using personal experience, I get a response complaining against it using personal experience. Or in other words, nuh uhh… that’s hogwash. Without any proof against it.
I can say hogwash to you too, but I am a man so I wont respond that way.

First off, I am also a man.

Second, that is exactly my point. Your anecdotal evidence is useless as we can sit and argue anecdotal evidence all day long. Your having a conversation with a couple where the man doesn’t say anything is not proof of anything whatsoever. There are men all over the world who are quiet for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with being emasculated.

I am not discussing if it is permissible or not, that is not the point of this discussion. Everyone knows it is permissible, just as it is permissible for me to not go to daily mass. I am talking about what is good.

Had you been just talking about “what is good” this post wouldn’t be occurring. What you instead said was

scylla:

It is a result of secular culture seeping into Catholic culture. Also feminism influencing men to act sheepish or apologetic for being men.
…

So we end up with a gender switch with women needing to step up and fill the place of the men (maybe even being more manly than the man) and men just sitting off to the side acting like little girls, too shy or timid to do anything even stand up for truth.

And I repeat that it is a bunch of broad-brushed conspiracy-theory hogwash.

Nobody is saying that there aren’t groups of people trying to subvert things. But to paint the overwhelming majority of people who are simply trying to devoutly serve God, in a way the Church says is fine and good, with those agendas is insulting and untrue.

And quite frankly, I don’t think either of us get to be the judge of whether allowing women to read or serve as EMHC is “good”. The Church has already spoken on that. At most we get to offer our opinions on that.

Telling people there are abuses that need to be cleaned up is one thing, and I wouldn’t disagree with you for a second. Telling someone they should not heed a legitimate calling sanctioned by the Church, with an implication that she will be emasculating men as part of some feminist plot, is uncalled for.

 

[BlestOne]

Guys… Let’s not fight, ok? I am glad to see so many men weighing in on this!!! Since I am not a man, I do want to hear the male perspective. I for one, as a woman, am content with my role and I really prefer to see men on the altar at mass, there is just something much more reverent to see all men up there.

First and foremost, I think it is a man’s place to be on the altar, not a woman’s place. Not that I am against my own gender, I think we have another calling is all. There are other less important reasons too. One of the reasons for this is a bit silly, but I really can’t stand to see women dress ultra casual and serve on the altar. In my parish the men tend to dress more appropriately than some of the women and I think it detracts from the mass when they wear casual or “sexy” clothing. We do have one woman who dresses totally masculine and it is really sad to say, but the first time she was reading, I really had to look to ascertain if she was a male or female… needless to say the reading for that week was lost on me, not by her fault, I admit it was my own.

I accept that women are allowed to do readings and EMHC, I just really think men are preferable in these roles.

 

[paramedicgirl]

I accept that women are allowed to do readings and EMHC, I just really think men are preferable in these roles.

And priests are even better.

 

[Fidelia]

But as soon as any lay person is allowed to do anything, men and women should be allowed equally.

 

[paramedicgirl]

But as soon as any lay person is allowed to do anything, men and women should be allowed equally.

Only if that is the ruling of the Church.

 

[kellyanne]

In the case of EMHC’s and lectors, the Church has ruled. Men and women are equally able to serve. It then depends on the pastor’s ruling. A person doesn’t appoint oneself to the position.

 

[Fidelia]

There is nothing a lay man can do that a lay woman can’t do. Both should be allowed equally, if lay people are allowed. Whether or not there should be lay EMHC’s or lectors, is a different issue.

 

[maryj]

We are a country that contracepted ourselves. I have six brothers, they were all altar boys. In our neighborhood alone there were enough boys to fill every mass with male servers, and have another dozen who were sent out of the sacristy at each mass because they had enough altar boys to serve at that mass. Our parish from that time, produced many priests. Say what you will, but in my experiences, most young boys don’t want anything to do with something that girls can do too. Girls let on the baseball field with boys, boys quit playing. My husband does adventure racing, his teammates want to compete with only men, they don’t especially want women on their teams, even though it is necessary for them to have at least one woman on a four person team. Even the Blessed Mother took a back seat to the “boys”. I want to stay home and take care of my children, I want to have supper on the stove when my husband comes home from work, I don’t want to have to ask him for help around the house because I’m so tired from working my "other"job. I want Altar boys, I want men to be able to be men… commence throwing rocks, I can take it. Like I said I have 6 brothers.