Women, Men, and Shirts

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exnihilo said:
This is an interesting topic. I can see some merit in the argument that culture and conditioning play a role. I think a strong argument against women being topless is the fact that women do so much to ‘enhance’ their breasts. They wear bras intended to make them seem larger. They wear tops to show just a bit of cleavage. They have surgery to enlarge them. Women clearly see their breast as sexual objects. If women didn’t do such things then I think I’d be more persuaded they can go around topless.
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:banghead:

Women enhance their breasts (with clothes, cosmetics, or surgery) because men see their breasts as sexual objects. In exactly the same way that men work on their abs or peacocks their tail fans or any example from nature you care to pick. Don’t blame women for responding to the signals given by men about what they find attractive.

Yes in a way women enhance their breasts for other women it’s true - but it’s not to impress so much as to ward off competition (like men with cap sleeve tshirts). I can promise you that if men lost all sexual interest in breasts tomorrow and replaced it with a love of women’s wrists, you will see wrist enhancement competition taking place by the weekend.
 
KendraDZ1902 said:
A lot of women want to do this to show that their bodies aren’t sexual objects. They are just boobs, it is just a vagina, etc. I kind of get it. Look how short men’s basketball shorts we’re in the 70s. It’s scandalous for women to wear short shorts, men can show their chest, women can’t. There really shouldn’t be a double standard.
Same for society’s view of sex. Men can have all the sex they want to, but women are labeled for having lots of sex. It’s sick the pressures we put on women and then men get a pass. Boys will be boys, they say.
Nope, I am kind of sick of the double standards. If women need to be covered, so do men. Period.
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You are right, I never thought about men wearing very short shorts, compared to women wearing them, Id bet no one would say anything if a man were to walk around in short shorts, but many would definitely say something about a woman doing it.

Plus, when you think about, boobs are NOT in anyway, sexual…its only people that have put them in that category.

Furthermore, I think this may be a US problem, if you look at many other countries, they dont have problems with the human body in the way we do here, they view it was it was meant to be viewed, as a beautiful thing, created by God, but in the US, it is seen as dirty, nasty, parents should cover their kids eyes…sounds like the enemy working on these people…making them think a beautiful thing created by God is nasty, and they dont even realize what they are doing. I would bet that if the statue of David was to go on ‘tour’ in the US, many cities would try to cover it up, they dont want kids seeing such things. lol
 
Murmurs said:
:banghead:

Women enhance their breasts (with clothes, cosmetics, or surgery) because men see their breasts as sexual objects. In exactly the same way that men work on their abs or peacocks their tail fans or any example from nature you care to pick. Don’t blame women for responding to the signals given by men about what they find attractive.

Yes in a way women enhance their breasts for other women it’s true - but it’s not to impress so much as to ward off competition (like men with cap sleeve tshirts). I can promise you that if men lost all sexual interest in breasts tomorrow and replaced it with a love of women’s wrists, you will see wrist enhancement competition taking place by the weekend.
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I would add, please don’t blame men for finding certain body parts attractive. :rolleyes:
 
Gertabelle said:
I would add, please don’t blame men for finding certain body parts attractive. :rolleyes:
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Oh I wouldn’t - I think everyone is subject to cultural mores as well as creating them, and I wouldn’t blame any guy in particular. But men do set most of our sexual expectations (not even deliberately, I’ll grant); this is why feminism is so important - we might have the right to vote and to equal pay (in theory anyway) but a lot of the time a lot of what is characterised especially though not exclusively on the left as “women expressing and enjoying themselves” etc, is actually just women continuing to respond to primarily male ideas and fantasies. It’s why patriarchy is so devilishly difficult to unpick; nearly every women as much as every man is wholly complicit because it’s so ingrained (and of course just because one might have that awareness doesn’t mean one isn’t also guilty of it!).
 
I don’t think women should be allowed to go topless. This goes against our rules of modesty (which have deteriorated enough already these past decades). My grandfather recalled to me that when the girls wore shorts in PE, they cowered in the corner as they felt so exposed. Now, I see girl’s butts literally popping out of their shorts at school (my mother told me this, I don’t looks so don’t worry ;)). Men should be without a shirt in very limited settings, if at all.
 
If men can be in a public place without a shirt then women should also be able to.
 
Tomdstone said:
I am not sure that there is any argument against it. After all, even Pope John Paul II said Mass with a topless woman reading from Scripture.
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What??? Could you please provide a link to a website that shows this? I’m sorry but I don’t believe this happened because it sounds too unbelieveable. :confused:
 
Jeannie52 said:
What??? Could you please provide a link to a website that shows this? I’m sorry but I don’t believe this happened because it sounds too unbelieveable. :confused:
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Try here 🙂 (then on the link suggested, go to the foot of the page; the page in question talks of ‘scandal’ but that’s a little ridiculous, for reasons should be obvious).

It’s only “unbelievable” (I think it should be actually pretty unremarkable to be honest) because we assume the whole world has the same rather prudish, puritan mindset, as we do generally in the West. Cultural mores are relative and in Papua New Guinea, a bare breast presumably isn’t of the remotest interest, sexual or otherwise (except I suppose to a hungry baby). One thing I think we can be very sure of is that John Paul II would absolutely understand the relative nature of such things in different parts of the world, (and for that matter across time just here in the West).
 
mikekle said:
Furthermore, I think this may be a US problem, if you look at many other countries, they dont have problems with the human body in the way we do here, they view it was it was meant to be viewed, as a beautiful thing, created by God, but in the US, it is seen as dirty, nasty, parents should cover their kids eyes…sounds like the enemy working on these people…making them think a beautiful thing created by God is nasty, and they dont even realize what they are doing. I would bet that if the statue of David was to go on ‘tour’ in the US, many cities would try to cover it up, they dont want kids seeing such things. lol
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I agree with this. I didn’t know there was a topless movement, but insofar as I am in favor of adopting a more celebratory, less puritanical approach to the human body, I don’t think it’s an entirely bad thing.
 
How can so many people support this movement? People are calling Western culture “puritanical” and I have to say that is just plain ridiculous. Just look at the way people dress today: short shorts, translucent blouses, halter tops, and muscle shirts just to name a few. These are so accepted in society that they are expected. A puritan would have fainted were he to see the clothes of today, especially in our celebrities.

The last time I checked, the clothes I listed are sinful, so anything beyond that is even more sinful. We can’t compare our culture to the cultures that are more exposing and say, “they do it, why can’t we?” because we aren’t that culture. Here, breasts are quite tempting to men and to expose them is a sin. Not to mention that it is already popular in gay parades to have nudity and topless women, I don’t think modeling their wicked behavior is advisable.
 
Oh dear me, When I think of men walking around shirtless I either think of a beer belly or a strutting peacock.

When I think of women walking around blouseless, oh dear me, I see boobs bobbing up and down when the “ladies” walk.

I am sorry but, I have no real argument against this, but there are very few of us who could pull this off without either looking ridiculous or being deliberately seductive.
 
Murmurs said:
Try here 🙂 (then on the link suggested, go to the foot of the page; the page in question talks of ‘scandal’ but that’s a little ridiculous, for reasons should be obvious).

It’s only “unbelievable” (I think it should be actually pretty unremarkable to be honest) because we assume the whole world has the same rather prudish, puritan mindset, as we do generally in the West. Cultural mores are relative and in Papua New Guinea, a bare breast presumably isn’t of the remotest interest, sexual or otherwise (except I suppose to a hungry baby). One thing I think we can be very sure of is that John Paul II would absolutely understand the relative nature of such things in different parts of the world, (and for that matter across time just here in the West).
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In Europe there were multiple times where bared breasts were fashionable
 
Confiteor_Deo said:
…
The last time I checked, the clothes I listed are sinful…
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The last time I checked, intention was a critical component of sin. It gets really hot where I live, the standard ‘uniform’ for most young women seems to be shorts and a tank top. Which tends to de-emphasize any sexuality component to it-- they dress in a way which is comfortable with no interest in being a visual stimulus to anyone. In other circumstances, it might seem overtly sexual. But that’s the point of sexual norms/customs. Someone dressing with the intent to emphasize their sexuality will dress outside the cultural norms.

At least some beaches in France (I was a guest to a family and they just took me to their local beach) are topless bathing, made me a bit uncomfortable when I was there-- didn’t want to offend so initially I was focusing on sand, sky- acting very abnormally for a tourist, deliberately avoiding looking around. Kind of awkward for the family, which included a couple of young boys. After a bit, topless thing just faded into the background and wasn’t really noticeable because it was the norm there.

Same thing in the gym-- folks criticize workout clothing as revealing or too tight or whatever. But sorry, I wear what’s comfortable in the gym as a guy and assume women wear what is comfortable for them. I don’t really notice what folks are wearing if they’re working out; I notice folks just standing around regardless of what they’re wearing. Great picture I saw of a woman with a good figure in typical workout gear with one exception-- a loose sleeveless shirt over her workout top with “DON’T BOTHER ME” on it.
 
Tomdstone said:
I am not sure that there is any argument against it. After all, even Pope John Paul II said Mass with a topless woman reading from Scripture.
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I think the reactions to this post speaks volumes about how puritan and uptight the west is.

Personally, I’m sick of the modesty standards expected upon women.

Perfectly practical outfits for women are seen as too scandalous for a large number of Christians. Yet the same standards are not expected of men with various reasons as to why.

Personally, I’m a woman who does find that a bare-chested man at the beach can be attractive and distracting.

My husband goes bare-chested at the beach or boating and sometimes when he works out.

I’m not bothered by it but I do find it attractive. Yet, this seems to be universally acceptable.

Yet when I wear a two-piece bathing suit (note how I said two-piece and not bikini) I’m causing a scandal.
🤷

I dress my daughters the same way…two piece suits and usually a rash guard. It’s practical for my oldest so she can go potty and the rash guard protects their skin.

Sorry, but it’s comfortable and practical for me to wear…and I’ll wear it and make no apologies for it.

This is coming from a woman who insists upon wearing nice skirts and dresses to every Mass and I dress my daughters that way too.
 
styrgwillidar said:
The last time I checked, intention was a critical component of sin. It gets really hot where I live, the standard ‘uniform’ for most young women seems to be shorts and a tank top. Which tends to de-emphasize any sexuality component to it-- they dress in a way which is comfortable with no interest in being a visual stimulus to anyone. In other circumstances, it might seem overtly sexual. But that’s the point of sexual norms/customs. Someone dressing with the intent to emphasize their sexuality will dress outside the cultural norms.

At least some beaches in France (I was a guest to a family and they just took me to their local beach) are topless bathing, made me a bit uncomfortable when I was there-- didn’t want to offend so initially I was focusing on sand, sky- acting very abnormally for a tourist, deliberately avoiding looking around. Kind of awkward for the family, which included a couple of young boys. After a bit, topless thing just faded into the background and wasn’t really noticeable because it was the norm there.

Same thing in the gym-- folks criticize workout clothing as revealing or too tight or whatever. But sorry, I wear what’s comfortable in the gym as a guy and assume women wear what is comfortable for them. I don’t really notice what folks are wearing if they’re working out; I notice folks just standing around regardless of what they’re wearing. Great picture I saw of a woman with a good figure in typical workout gear with one exception-- a loose sleeveless shirt over her workout top with “DON’T BOTHER ME” on it.
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Does the intention to cause lust matter? Say a woman goes out naked or a man for that matter since they just want to be comfortable in the heat, that is most certainly a sin regardless if they want to cause lust. We all have to make sacrifices, and one of these sacrifices is comfort in charity for our neighbor’s salvation. You don’t want to be culpable for someone’s damnation because you wanted to be “comfortable”. Besides, the clothing styles I listed are not meant for comfort as the women dress the same in Winter at my school and complain about the cold.

I live in the hot weather and my parish is still enforcing their dress code on men and women. They say “as the weather gets hotter and the desire to dress comfortably increases, we request that you have charity for your neighbor and continue to follow the dress code and dress modestly”.
 
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