Women "Priests" in the news . . . How do we feel about this?

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi to all in cyberspace Catholic Answers…I have pondered what Forum to put this thread into and have decided on Spirituality…

The following article appeared in Church Resources: Catholic News…and I am wondering how we feel about women priests…the wording I have put into bold letters in the article is interesting I thought. Personally I too would like to see women in the priesthood … however, be that as it may, I submit always to a greater wisdom than mine in the Teaching Authority of The Church. What this thread is about is not Church Law and Her right to proclaim such and be obeyed…but our personal feelings on the issue of a female priesthood. (PS I do NOT think I have a call to be a Priest!!!)

cathnews.com/news/506/133.php

Church Resources: Catholic News

Catholic woman in secret ordination

A woman has been ordained as a priest in a secret ceremony in central Europe as an act of defiance against the Roman Catholic Church.

According to BBC News, the woman who was “ordained” does not want to be identified for fear of losing her job teaching religious education.

Three years ago, the Vatican moved decisively against an international movement for the ordination of women when it excommunicated the so-called Danube Seven. Seven women had claimed the status of priests after a form of ordination ceremony held on a boat moored on the river Danube. Now a similar ceremony has taken place in a private chapel in central Europe.

BBC Radio 4´s ´Crossing Continents Crossing Europe´ witnessed the event but only on condition the programme does not reveal the exact location or the identity of the young woman.

In the case of the Danube Seven, it was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger - now Pope Benedict - who declared that since the women gave no indication of repentance “for the most serious offence they have committed, they have incurred excommunication”.

But his stern admonitions have been ignored. Among those conducting the ordination the BBC witnessed, were women from the Danube Seven who now describe themselves as bishops.

***The day following the “ordination”, the BBC reporter, Julian Pettifer, attended mass at a local church and talked to the congregation about women priests. ***

***He made no mention of the ceremony, but every person questioned, male and female, young and old, said they would welcome women into the Roman Catholic priesthood. ***

When Pettifer put this to the President of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications in Rome, Archbishop John Paul Foley, he said: “I don´t think you win a war by surrender. The question is, what did Jesus want? What did he reveal? And what does the Church authoritatively teach? That´s the norm by which we must judge, not by opinion polls.”

SOURCE

Catholic woman in secret ordination (BBC News 22/6/05)

LINKS (not necessarily endorsed by Church Resources)

Ordination of Catholic Women

Women Priests for the Catholic Church

ARCHIVE

Cardinal Pell affirms ban on women priests (CathNews 21/3/05)

Womens ordination group to meet in Hobart (CathNews 11/10/02)

Vatican document on women deaconesses nears final vote (CathNews 30/9/02)

Seven women excommunicated as deadline passes (CathNews 25/7/02)

Ratzinger issues ultimatum to ´ordained´ women (CathNews 11/7/02)

Catholic women in unofficial ordination (CathNews 1/7/02)

Send regards, Barb
Bethany South Australia
Friday 24.6.05 9.38pm

 

[InnocentIII]

BarbaraTherese:

Hi to all in cyberspace Catholic Answers…I have pondered what Forum to put this thread into and have decided on Spirituality…

The following article appeared in Church Resources: Catholic News…and I am wondering how we feel about women priests…the wording I have put into bold letters in the article is interesting I thought. Personally I too would like to see women in the priesthood … however, be that as it may, I submit always to a greater wisdom than mine in the Teaching Authority of The Church. What this thread is about is not Church Law and Her right to proclaim such and be obeyed…but our personal feelings on the issue of a female priesthood. (PS I do NOT think I have a call to be a Priest!!!)

cathnews.com/news/506/133.php

Church Resources: Catholic News

Catholic woman in secret ordination

A woman has been ordained as a priest in a secret ceremony in central Europe as an act of defiance against the Roman Catholic Church.

According to BBC News, the woman who was “ordained” does not want to be identified for fear of losing her job teaching religious education.

Three years ago, the Vatican moved decisively against an international movement for the ordination of women when it excommunicated the so-called Danube Seven. Seven women had claimed the status of priests after a form of ordination ceremony held on a boat moored on the river Danube. Now a similar ceremony has taken place in a private chapel in central Europe.

BBC Radio 4´s ´Crossing Continents Crossing Europe´ witnessed the event but only on condition the programme does not reveal the exact location or the identity of the young woman.

In the case of the Danube Seven, it was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger - now Pope Benedict - who declared that since the women gave no indication of repentance “for the most serious offence they have committed, they have incurred excommunication”.

But his stern admonitions have been ignored. Among those conducting the ordination the BBC witnessed, were women from the Danube Seven who now describe themselves as bishops.

***The day following the “ordination”, the BBC reporter, Julian Pettifer, attended mass at a local church and talked to the congregation about women priests. ***

***He made no mention of the ceremony, but every person questioned, male and female, young and old, said they would welcome women into the Roman Catholic priesthood. ***

When Pettifer put this to the President of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications in Rome, Archbishop John Paul Foley, he said: “I don´t think you win a war by surrender. The question is, what did Jesus want? What did he reveal? And what does the Church authoritatively teach? That´s the norm by which we must judge, not by opinion polls.”

SOURCE

Catholic woman in secret ordination (BBC News 22/6/05)

LINKS (not necessarily endorsed by Church Resources)

Ordination of Catholic Women

Women Priests for the Catholic Church

ARCHIVE

Cardinal Pell affirms ban on women priests (CathNews 21/3/05)

Womens ordination group to meet in Hobart (CathNews 11/10/02)

Vatican document on women deaconesses nears final vote (CathNews 30/9/02)

Seven women excommunicated as deadline passes (CathNews 25/7/02)

Ratzinger issues ultimatum to ´ordained´ women (CathNews 11/7/02)

Catholic women in unofficial ordination (CathNews 1/7/02)

Send regards, Barb
Bethany South Australia
Friday 24.6.05 9.38pm

Why do human beings in their arrogance seek to create a Church after their own desire instead of the will of God. Take a look at the self-destruction of those churches (e.g Anglican) who have already abandoned themselves to this particular form of worldliness.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

InnocentIII:

Why do human beings in their arrogance seek to create a Church after their own desire instead of the will of God. Take a look at the self-destruction of those churches (e.g Anglican) who have already abandoned themselves to this particular form of worldliness.

Hi there Innocentlll…I guess it all depends on how one interprets God’s Will. Do I see it as an objective something expressed by something exterior to myself…or do I see God’s Will as something opposite to that i.e. as expressed in the leanings of my own heart. Pardon me if I am wrong, but I think your heart leans towards The Church as expressing God’s Will?

Regards Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_6_6v.gif
Bethany SthAussie
Friday 24.6.05 10. 40pm

 

[GoodForm]

Roma locuta est, causa finita est. - “Rome has spoken, the case is closed.” Why keep drumming this up? Time to move on.

 

[InnocentIII]

BarbaraTherese:

Hi there Innocentlll…I guess it all depends on how one interprets God’s Will. Do I see it as an objective something expressed by something exterior to myself…or do I see God’s Will as something opposite to that i.e. as expressed in the leanings of my own heart. Pardon me if I am wrong, but I think your heart leans towards The Church as expressing God’s Will?

Regards Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_6_6v.gif
Bethany SthAussie
Friday 24.6.05 10. 40pm

Indeed it does. The conceit of individual interpretation of God’s Will was a Protestant innovation. The fact that they have split and continue to split into a myriad of sects is testament to the power of individuals to personalise God’s Will to there own desires. The unity of the Church is equally testament to the working of the Holy Spirit who above all desires unity and has ensured the Truth of the Church’s teaching authority.

If I may say, purely as a practical matter of human nature, were personal interpretations to be allowed as some demand there would be no Universal Church within fifty years, only a range of “Catholic” churches all claiming to be the holders of the Truth.

 

[Aurelia]

The Church is ultimately under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, so I would think that if the Holy Spirit wanted women to be ordained, the Holy Spirit would have arranged for their ordination some time in the past 2000 years.

 

[Wolseley]

This question has already been answered—definitively—by the Vatican several times, but for some reason, it seems to live on. I guess if people don’t like the answer they get, they just keep asking the question over and over again…

Pope John Paul II made an infallible statement in 1994 that women cannot be ordained. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith followed this statement up seventeen months later with a Responsum explaining that the Pope’s statement was, indeed, an infallible declaration, and that the infallible declaration was a reinforcement of a teaching that was already infallible anyway, being as it was part of the Deposit of the Faith.

The documents in question (bolding mine):

John Paul II; Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, May 22, 1994:

"Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful."​

Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; Responsum ad Dubium Concerning the Teaching Contained in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis", October 28, 1995:

Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.

Responsum: In the affirmative.

**This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium. Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren, has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published.**

• Joseph Card. Ratzinger
  Prefect
• Tarcisio Bertone
  Archbishop Emeritus of Vercelli
  Secretary"

So there you have it. The Vatican has stated, clearly, that this is an infallible teaching. Women cannot be ordained. People can still complain about it, campaign for it, demand that it happen, protest, jump up and down, throw temper tantrums, do whatever they like, but the dogma will not change. It CAN’T.

A teaching that is part of the Deposit of the Faith is infallible, and cannot be altered. This one was followed up by an infallible statement from the last Pope, which merely reinforces it and makes it a definitive dogma as well as being part of the Deposit.

This is not going to changed so that women can become priests, folks. Once it has been declared infallible, that’s it. It’s not like changing from Latin to English, or doing away with fish on Fridays. Those are not infallible teachings; this is.

In short, no matter how long people want to push for it, argue about, demand it, etc., women are not going to become priests in the Roman Catholic Church. Not today, not tomorrow, not next week, not next year, not ever. It’s a dead question. It ain’t gonna happen.

 

[ThornGenX]

Oh dear BarbaraTherese, looks like you stumbled on one of the big land mines in this forum.

Truth be told, I too struggle with the issue. Perhaps it’s some residual thought process from feminist and “women’s studies” classes I took in my school career, but not allowing women to be priests still does not make sense to me. In a world where a woman can be “president” or a similar role (ok, the US has not had a female president but other countries have had female leaders), or CEO of a company, I just don’t see why they are banned from church leadership. Like BarbaraTherese, I do not have a calling to be a priest either, I am not a “people person” and do not have the right disposition for the job.

I am usually afraid to state my doubts and questions when I see what happens to people who do question the male only priesthood like you just did BarbaraTherese. Instead I just hide in shame and whimper about trying to follow the church’s teachings in this matter. Sadly, even though I pray for understanding, it has not come to me yet.

I do stay in the Church instead of leaving for a church that ordains women because they lack the two things I care about most in the Catholic Church, the Eucharist and The Sacrament of Reconciliation. When I first came to the Roman Catholic Church as a convert in the 90s, I read book on different religions focusing on the Christian section and compared all the major christian denominations. None existed that had the Catholic version of the Mass and Reconciliation (or as I still often call it Confession) along with the clergy opened to women.

Here I am and my profile says Roman Catholic. I know from past threads on this subject, some think (or at least their posts indicate to me) that I do not belong in the Catholic Church since I dare question the male only priesthood or even struggle with it and try to silence my own dissension on the subject most of the time.

Though this subject has been brought up before, it looks like BarbaraTherese is fairly new to the forums and did not explore past threads. I sometimes make the same mistake in this forum and others of asking a question I was not aware had been asked several times in the past. Anyway, BarbaraTherese, this usually is a very nice forum open to dialog. I don’t understand some of the hostility and “how dare you ask that” attitude about this issue.

 

[Wolseley]

Although my response may have seemed hostile, it wasn’t meant to be so. It’s simply a case of the question already having been settled, and continuing to argue about it is both divisive and useless. It’s like saying, “I demand that the Church make the moon oblong instead of round!” Demand all you want, but it won’t happen.

A lot of people, in the wake of Vatican II, think that any and all teachings of the Church are open to change. They are not, because not all teachings are on the same level. As I said, you want to change eating fish on Friday, that can be done. You want to add decades to the Rosary? That can be done. You want to make the vestments white at funerals instead of black? That can be done, too. None of these teachings or practices have been declared infallible.

But in the case of women’s ordination, it has already been declared, infallibly, that it cannot be done. And an infallible teaching cannot be altered.

To give you an idea of what this means, let’s take some other infallible teachings from the Deposit:

Is God a Holy Trinity, or not? Yes. The Trinity is an infallible teaching.

Is Jesus Christ true man and true God? Yes. That’s an infallible teaching as well.

Was Mary a virgin when she gave birth to Christ? Yes. Another infallible teaching.

Did Jesus Christ rise from the dead after three days? Yes. The Resurrection is also an infallible teaching.

Can we change any of these teachings? No.

The male-only priesthood is an infallible teaching as well; and people demand that it change. Impossible, but for the sake of argument, let’s say that it could. If you change one infallible teaching, meaning it’s only fallible after all, then everything else that was once infallible is open to be changed as well. So what do you get then?

You get female priests, in a church that declares that only God the Father is really God; that Jesus Christ is just a man, not God; he was born of a woman who’d already had children, and when he died, he died—he’s still in his grave and never rose from the dead at all.

Fortunately, none of that is ever going to happen, because the Holy Spirit has given the charism of infallibility to the Magetsrium, the Supreme Pontiff, and to ecumenical councils, and infallible teachings, impervious to change, are just that: infallible teachings, impervious to change.

The prohibition on women as priests is part of that infallible body of teachings that cannot be changed. We may not like it, we may be uncomfortable with it, we may think it’s ridiculous, we may even be quite angry about it; but we’d better get used to it, because it isn’t going to change, ever.

(shrug) It’s just as simple as that, folks. There is nothing that can be done about this, save splitting off from the Church and doing things your own way, a la Martin Luther.

 

[catsrus]

Never has been
Isn’t
Never will be
Thanks be to God!

 

[Brain]

can’t happen.

 

[GoodForm]

Wolseley:

Although my response may have seemed hostile, it wasn’t meant to be so.

There was nothing hostile about your initial response.

 

[Kay_Cee]

If a woman truly wants to be powerful, she should strive to become a saint.

All the saints have submitted to the authority of the Church. To submit to the Church is to submit to Christ.

 

[CatholicCid]

In a world where a woman can be “president” or a similar role (ok, the US has not had a female president but other countries have had female leaders), or CEO of a company, I just don’t see why they are banned from church leadership.

I made a thread like this in April on another forum and they had similar things… Here’s a response somewhat

First of all, I do not think that women shouldn’t be priests because they couldn’t lead a parish. Women in the Old Testament led entire tribes. I don’t think women should be priests, but the idea that they should not be priests because they cannot lead seems very wrong to me, having known a few women in particular.

I do agree with the idea that men and women have different roles in the Church. What I really don’t agree with in this discussion is the attitude that being a priest is about having power and getting things out of it. THis is completely wrong-headed. Priests are the servants of their parishioners. The Pope’s actual title is “Servant of the servants of God.” THe priesthood is not about having power, it is about bringing others to Christ, as are all of our vocations. Our vocation in life is not to get whatever we can out of it, but to bring glory to God through our sacrifices and our struggles.

Then, my favaroite part

So why can’t women be president? Why can’t women be Navy Seals? There you have some good politcal arguments. But then there’s some other ones to look at: Why can’t women be priests? And hey, why can’t men…have…children…Ummm…Oh ya, because they cant!

Men and women are **complementary ** to each other. There is a word that we don’t hear near enough in our world today, a world so obsessed with being equal (not that thats bad!) even hypocritically so at times(which is bad- whole other topic).

I’ll put a view on this that my Dad was telling me- Men in the priesthood hold the role of initiation , as they do in conception. Women have the role of receival and fruition, as they do in conception as well. Without one or the other, there is no result, no meaning. The same goes if one has the same abilities as the other- no meaning.

Men and women were intelligently designed to be united, just as they were designed to be completely different beings. In this world that is so bent on political correctness it may be hard to imagine things “restricted” from women (like the priesthood) or from men (like having kids) but the thing is that not one is better than the other, not one has more “power” than the other. They are different creations with different abilities, and their different abilities complement the other’s.

Women saints in the Church (without a doubt in MY mind) have done more for the extension of God’s kingdom than any other entity in the Church. The saints wield the fullness of God’s power in the Church, not priests! The fact is, men and women are different… and beautifully so!!

Christ was no bigot. Rather than bestow Holy Orders on his Mother, who was completely without sin, or upon Mary Magdalene, who at the least followed him to the Cross… he chose to give that ministry to his Disciples. Men that were as prone to sin as you or I; indeed their leader, the first Pope appointed by GOD, denied that he even knew Jesus Christ! But so it is.

Some might say it would be too “radical” if Jesus had ordained women for his time period. I say POPPYCOCK! Jesus proclaimed on a hilltop that people had to eat his flesh and drink his blood, the most heinous sin and defilement in the Jewish faith, if they were to have life at all. And people ran from him in the thousands. He would not have thought twice about ordaining women, if He did not have some purpose not to. Check out that other link for the crazy sweet connections, props to Chip!

And to close, just on a personal note, God is a Lover. Jesus was, for lack of a better term, the most intense guy to walk the earth. There is such a thing as perfect charity, and (ladies especially) I would love to chat w/ you about it but ya pm me or phone or sumthin would be better or else I will get carpal tunnel haha. But there is this love that leads men to want to serve to the best of their ability!

Surely you have had some person that you want to just say “Come, sit in this chair by the fire, let me put your feet up and get you some hot cocoa, I love you. Don’t bother yourself working on that- I will do it, I just want to be near you and share your company because…I love you!”
Well that love exceeds all bounds in God. And as given by Christ, the sacrificing of the Eucharist by priests is the most intimate and telling way he (and Christ through him!) can minister to his sisters in Christ.

I have experienced some of this. A pure love of my sisters that makes me just want to serve them in the greatest way possible, and it is no mistake of God’s to give us the priesthood for just that, Blessed be He!

 

[InnocentIII]

ThornGenX:

I do stay in the Church instead of leaving for a church that ordains women because they lack the two things I care about most in the Catholic Church, the Eucharist and The Sacrament of Reconciliation. When I first came to the Roman Catholic Church as a convert in the 90s, I read book on different religions focusing on the Christian section and compared all the major christian denominations. None existed that had the Catholic version of the Mass and Reconciliation (or as I still often call it Confession) along with the clergy opened to women.

Here I am and my profile says Roman Catholic. I know from past threads on this subject, some think (or at least their posts indicate to me) that I do not belong in the Catholic Church since I dare question the male only priesthood or even struggle with it and try to silence my own dissension on the subject most of the time.

Thorn, I did not say (nor does the Church) that we will not have struggles with Church teaching. I have had struggles with a number of issues during my life, some of these even drove me away from the Church for many years in my younger days. It took many years for me to accept that I can’t pick and choose or remake the Church in my image. Nor indeed do I have the depth of knowledge to determine that my opinion is better than the Magisterium’s. Once I realised this and realised that I was joining the Church not the other way round I was able to harmonise these struggles and submit my will to Holy Mother. You are still very much Catholic if you struggle, that is the Via Dolorosa that we must all walk as we seek to approach closer to the Christ ideal.

Though this subject has been brought up before, it looks like BarbaraTherese is fairly new to the forums and did not explore past threads. I sometimes make the same mistake in this forum and others of asking a question I was not aware had been asked several times in the past. Anyway, BarbaraTherese, this usually is a very nice forum open to dialog. I don’t understand some of the hostility and “how dare you ask that” attitude about this issue.

I think part of the reaction to this topic is that it is really a case of “Roma locuta est, causa finita est” and it seems like scratching at a closed wound. There is a technique that grew out of the 60’s “revolution” that you keep asking the question till you get the answer you want, then immediately declare hte debate closed. This debate is closed, definitively and eternally. Bringing it up just sounds like the whining of children who won’t accept a parental no for an answer (I am just saying this is what it sounds like not saying all people who raise it are children) and this is why you get the reaction of frustrated anger sometimes. It is time to move on. If one doesn’t like it join a Church which has women priests, if not accept it.

 

[poppiedancer]

Personally, I have no desire to become a priest (I am a girl!) And I don’t understand why women would want too. However, if this was Gods will, surely we would know by now! The Church has been around for quite a while!!!

Anyway, when the Pope says its not going to happen, it better not!

(just my little 2c)

 

[Aurelia]

The Church is the Bride of Christ. The priest represents Christ.
Many years ago it was the custom when a newly ordained priest said his first Mass, there would be an outdoor procession, and walking in front of the priest they would have a little girl dressed as a bride, representing the Church. (I don’t know how widespread this custom was, but I remember hearing about it and seeing photos.) A priest has to be male, not female.

 

[JimG]

Women can and do take on many roles in society.
But a woman can never be a father.
And a man can never be a mother.

 

[jman507]

It is important to know that that in the secular world lately wants to say that males and females are the same and equal. The Catholic church says they are different but desearveing of the same equity. Male and females complament each other. The church does not see things with the eyes of the world.

Men have a special role and women have a different special role. If a man wants to try to be a leader that makes up doctrine as a priest he shouldn’t be a preist. He needs to be submissive to Christ. But really it seems to me the women who think women should be priest really underestimate motherhood. They probably really discount that they are the ones who give birth to life.

Priesthood does not make a person any more deserving of a higher place in heaven. What does is being faithful to you call. I would probably say one of the most highest regared person is not a priest at all, but our Blessed Mother.

 

[starrs0]

Well if soem of the “Danube 7” claim to be bishops why don’t they just formally start their own church like Luther did then all the femmes will leave us and join them and then they can play priest all they want and the Church of Rome will be a better place without them.