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GKC
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GKC;11291823:
No, that was a higher authority, per the faith of the RCC.Sure. Which is why it was said to be part of the deposit of the faith.
A few more, for post-padding, maybe.
By the way, who said it was part of the deposit of faith? It wasn’t me, was it?
GKC
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adrift
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Now you are calling me dishonestHUMBUG !!!
I don’t think you realize the mistake you made in your posting. Not a typo but a mistake. You are calling me dishonest. 
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GKC
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I’m pretty sure I spotted a mistake, myself. But I await the identification of the typo mentioned.Now you are calling me dishonest
KG
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GKC
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Hmmm. Could be.
GC.
GC.
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Contarini
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The Egyptian example is a good one to refute my sweeping generalization, but it’s temporally anachronistic. As far as I know, the office no longer existed (or at least did not have political significance) by Jesus’ time. I was thinking specifically of Greco-Roman examples. The women listed on that page appear to have been important for other reasons. Priesthood in the Greco-Roman world, as far as I know, did not itself confer a position of community leadership, but was a purely ritual function. The wikipedia examples do not contradict this as far as I can see.Do we have to stick to Jews? If not:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God%27s_Wife_of_Amun
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categoryriestesses_of_the_Roman_Empire
No, my point is that women were regarded as lacking the rational faculty, or at least not possessing it to the degree men did.
Straw man hyperbole. That’s not what I’m saying at all. But the fact that Jesus never denounced slavery, as far as we know, and used it repeatedly in a positive manner in parables (this doesn’t imply approval, of course, but it further substantiates the point that Jesus didn’t denounce it even when he had occasion to refer to it), indicates that Jesus was clearly fully incarnate in his culture in a manner that makes the argument from the maleness of the Twelve highly dubious.
Jesus opposed His culture when His mission required Him to do so. He did not introduce systematic, sweeping changes to the specific structures of His culture. The evidence on that is clear. Jesus radically undercut the prevailing understanding of power, and left this “leaven” to work itself out by the power of the Holy Spirit. We cannot judge, merely from Jesus’ “failure” to promote a particular kind of cultural change, that such a change is contrary to the mind of Christ.
Esther is a poor example, I think. Her power derived solely from her sexual attractiveness to the Persian king. Deborah is a good one.
Military leadership certainly was–Deborah sends for Barak and appoints him military leader precisely for that reason.
The OT evidence indicates that women could exercise “charismatic” authority but not “institutional” authority.
Edwin
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Moonbug
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The first time I saw it was in 1959 when it was consecrated. A couple of alters in the basement hadn’t been fully completed yet. I believe they now have a burial crypt of one of the Cardinals down there…
The evening Mass by Cardinal Cushing was inspiring. They had a huge musical presentation all through the Mass and I think just abut every bishop in the country was on the alter with Cushing. When the Mass was over, they all solemn came down to the foot of the alter and proceeded to exit to the right side of the shrine four abrest amid a terrible racket from the organ. You would have thought it was the second coming. Everyone was standing with their eyes glued to the poker face of Cardinal Cushing. As he came off the alter with priests carrying the cross in front of him, with the palms of his hands together in a prayerful position He was at the foot and center of the alter getting ready to follow the parade of bishops out of the shrine, the deafening sound of the organ still bouncing off the walls of the shrine, when he suddenly turned to the congregation, threw both his arms high in the air with a big Irish smile spread all over his face and yelled at the top of his voice, GOOS BYE !!!. Everyone in the building shouted back a roaring GOOD BYE. He really knew how to touch people’s hearts.
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GKC
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It must have been most moving and impressive.The first time I saw it was in 1959 when it was consecrated. A couple of alters in the basement hadn’t been fully completed yet. I believe they now have a burial crypt of one of the Cardinals down there…
The evening Mass by Cardinal Cushing was inspiring. They had a huge musical presentation all through the Mass and I think just abut every bishop in the country was on the alter with Cushing. When the Mass was over, they all solemn came down to the foot of the alter and proceeded to exit to the right side of the shrine four abrest amid a terrible racket from the organ. You would have thought it was the second coming. Everyone was standing with their eyes glued to the poker face of Cardinal Cushing. As he came off the alter with priests carrying the cross in front of him, with the palms of his hands together in a prayerful position He was at the foot and center of the alter getting ready to follow the parade of bishops out of the shrine, the deafening sound of the organ still bouncing off the walls of the shrine, when he suddenly turned to the congregation, threw both his arms high in the air with a big Irish smile spread all over his face and yelled at the top of his voice, GOOS BYE !!!. Everyone in the building shouted back a roaring GOOD BYE. He really knew how to touch people’s hearts.
But what I was wondering about was the state of the Cathedral Church of St. Peter and St. Paul, when you first saw it, back around 8-9 years before I first saw it, in 1960.
GKC
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Moonbug
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No, I’m not saying you are dishonest. I’m saying your remarks are frivolous.Now you are calling me dishonest
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GKC
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I suspect you did, from your previous posts. That’s the name of the National Cathedral, when it’s being formal.I never saw the church you refer to.
GKC
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GKC
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For me, it’s books. Has been for over 55 years. You should see the house. And other places.
Personally, there is no greater joy than mulling over my beetle collection. No greater happiness can one find in life.
Beetles are not in the picture, for me.
GKC
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Contarini
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When did I claim that there were no priestesses?
What I have claimed, consistently, is that women were regarded as less rational than men and as less perfect embodiments of the common human nature shared by both men and women.
No, when the term is used alike for men and women, the onus is on you to prove that the men were ordained and the women weren’t.
The evidence in fact is conflicting. One of the disciplinary canons of Nicea I speaks of deaconesses as being counted among the laity and not receiving the imposition of hands–but many other texts, including Canon 15 of Chalcedon, do speak of women receiving the imposition of hands as deacons.
Edwin
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adrift
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That is not the meaning of humbug. What you really are saying is you have no idea what mistake (and it was a lulu) that you made. You tried to cover by saying it was a typo hoping that would dig you out of it but it only dug you further. You ignore others question about what typo you are referring to because if you answered that you would have to admit that you really didn’t understand what is being referred to.No, I’m not saying you are dishonest. I’m saying your remarks are frivolous.
You are to 
(embarrassed) to ask and I think those who know what mistake you made are having a bit of fun with you because they believe you are only padding and being a troll.
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benjohnson
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Sure, you point is mostly true - Women of the time were not as powerful as men. I admit that I collect stories of powerful Women of the ancient world to **** people off when they try the “Jews (and therefore Christians) were sexist argument”
I’ve always wondered why Jesus never abolished slavery - I think He was wise to commend the behavior of the establishment, for the role of master/slave will always exist in this broken world.
Jesus admonished that slaves obey their masters, and that their master should rule kindly.
We in the modern West pride ourselves with our removal of immediate slavery, but I will point out that I must obey the Bank that holds my mortgage, and the Government that takes 40% of my income. And the Bank and Government should rule me kindly.
This is where the argument that “Jesus was a bigot from his culture” falls down - the good man had the audacity to not stay dead. That’s the biggest cultural taboo of all. He washed the feet of women. He was God and chose a women as his Mother.
Let the last one sink in - in the culture of His time, this would be just crazy to think that God was born of Woman. That’s absolutely crazy!
BUT let’s move on…
Let’s agree on this for the sake of argument.
Now it’s up to you to show the God given instructions to change the priesthood. Let’s say you are 100% correct. My point would be that without instructions form God we should maintain what we have been given out of an abundance of caution.
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NovusAugustus
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This thread is a laugh, though I wonder somewhat whether our brother Moonbug is aware of that fact or not.
Back on topic, I wonder what would happen if, by some strange and unexpected miracle, the leading bodies of the Lutheran and Anglican communions were to vote against women’s ordination and decide that all attempted ordinations of females were invalid–besides a massive public uproar, that is.
Back on topic, I wonder what would happen if, by some strange and unexpected miracle, the leading bodies of the Lutheran and Anglican communions were to vote against women’s ordination and decide that all attempted ordinations of females were invalid–besides a massive public uproar, that is.
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EvangelCatholic
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To even consider a retrogression on women priests is impossible in the 21st century. Some posters are experiencing the change in the Church now while others are only delaying the inevitable.
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NovusAugustus
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So if it were to happen, there would be a rift in your communions?
And on the contrary Evangel, I do not think that priestesses are an inevitability. I welcome women’s equality with open arms in many areas of the working world, but the fact is that the priesthood is no more a matter of equality than is motherhood. God has ordered the world according to His will and it is not our place to change it. Just as men should never aspire to be mothers, women should never aspire to be fathers–biological or spiritual.
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