women priests

[Ignatius]

Why recently is it that when this topic comes up are posts removed from threads or the thread taken down?

church through the centuries has thought about the role of women in the church, and if all is correct at first I was shocked but then I would be, because of living in a different age. I can see how “attuides” have changed and where some are still the same.

Actually, This is not new. Virtually every nation in the world had woman priests throughout the ages. It should be noted in fact, that in all of the history of The People of God in both Old Testament and New Testament times, God has never authorized priestesses. This in spite of the fact that in all of the nations to which He would send His people, all of the pagans had priestesses. It was not only socially acceptable, but considered backward and ignorant that His followers did not have priestesses, so there was always considerable pressure to give in to the customs of the pagans.

It is not recent, in May, 1994 Pope John Paul II issued the Papal Encyclical Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. In it he affirmed that everywhere and always the Faithful, must know and hold that The Church has no authority to ordain priestesses.

This is not a question open to debate by The Faithful.

It is explained further here: ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ORDIN.TXT

 

[cena]

Thanks

You don’t feel it’s right, why not? I understand what you mean when you have seen a women in a priest attire, when I have seen them in person I often think they should have priestess attire rather than a priests, so they don’t look like they are trying to act like a man.
I don’t think it has to do with women trying to be men, it’s more of a spiritual need. We could make it out to be some women crying out for equality, (what men do women should also be allowed to do) But it did make me think when I read about male and female are both made in the image of Christ. Then there is the long history of how females were viewed in relation to males.

Women had to cover their heads and hands in church, men would take off their hats. Why? The answer I found was because men are made in the image of Christ and women are not. Women also were thought unclean during menstruation so could not approach the altar. I knew this was a jewish custom of uncleanness but didn’t know or have yet to be corrected if it was a custom of the Catholic church.

There are other things that did make me think, although I maybe wasting my time trying to find answers here, because the thread could be closed, that is unless posters can politely engage in the conversation?

The Church cannot ordain women.

 

[cycleman]

Glenda and Tigg,

Thank you for the links. In the Jimmy Akin blog, one of the documents is a CDF commentary (October 28, 1995) on JP II’s Ordinatio Sacerdotalis of the previous year,

It is a Vatican document that actually uses the ‘I’ word (infallible). So, I understand that there is a clear statement that the church’s doctrine on women’s priests is declared to be infallible. I had read Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and had seen ‘definitively held’ and ‘requires assent’ but I did not know whether that rose to the level of infallible.

I have a real problem with the doctrine (note I describe myself as an ex-catholic) but there really isn’t any point (IMHO) in discussing it further.

 

[simpleas]

You really should read Peter Kreeft’s book, “Women and the Priesthood” which gives solid theological explanation for the reasons why it simply cannot be.

Kreeft also explains the sexual symbolism which might help you understand things from the Church’s perspective:

Thanks, but no thanks, after reading the link you posted he sounded very aburpt in his writings, and this statement is just…unbelievable…

*What would priestesses mean, what would they symbolize? They would signify to all women that they are spiritual lesbians instead of brides. *

Seems he thinks women who would desire to serve the church as mad, feminists…

 

[simpleas]

Actually, This is not new. Virtually every nation in the world had woman priests throughout the ages. It should be noted in fact, that in all of the history of The People of God in both Old Testament and New Testament times, God has never authorized priestesses. This in spite of the fact that in all of the nations to which He would send His people, all of the pagans had priestesses. It was not only socially acceptable, but considered backward and ignorant that His followers did not have priestesses, so there was always considerable pressure to give in to the customs of the pagans.

It is not recent, in May, 1994 Pope John Paul II issued the Papal Encyclical Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. In it he affirmed that everywhere and always the Faithful, must know and hold that The Church has no authority to ordain priestesses.

This is not a question open to debate by The Faithful.

It is explained further here: ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ORDIN.TXT

When I said recent, I meant on CAF, not in church history.

 

[Ignatius]

When I said recent, I meant on CAF, not in church history.

Yes, I understand that. I thought it would be helpful to point that out for those that might not know that this addressed difinitively.

Also, many have tried to argue that it was cultural restrictions that inhibited priestesses, but virtually every nation in the world had woman priests throughout the ages, so it was really the norm and it was not only socially acceptable, but considered very odd that Jesus’ followers did not have priestesses, so there was always considerable pressure to give in to the customs of the pagans.

Again, this is not a question open to debate by Faithful Catholics.

 

[glendab]

Hello Ignatius.

Yes, I understand that. I thought it would be helpful to point that out for those that might not know that this addressed difinitively.

Also, many have tried to argue that it was cultural restrictions that inhibited priestesses, but virtually every nation in the world had woman priests throughout the ages, so it was really the norm and it was not only socially acceptable, but considered very odd that Jesus’ followers did not have priestesses, so there was always considerable pressure to give in to the customs of the pagans.

Again, this is not a question open to debate by Faithful Catholics.

While yes I agree with you 110%. The issue is a non-issue and that in an official way, cannot be discussed. However, the fact remains that there are over 120 women priests who have been ordained in the US and Canada and their numbers are increasing. We really cannot just ignore this fact. When the faithful talk about this, we aren’t endorsing them but calling all to be aware that there really is a problem and it fosters this sad distortion of the faith. Where did this come from and where is it going? We as the faithful can repeat the words of OS and other documents, but that does nothing to stop them nor does it arm anyone who may have to defend themselves or the Church from the rhetoric these women and their supporters spew. Ignoring the elephant in the room only makes the elephant larger. It is my opinion that we do need to talk about it so as to know how to respond to it in a clear and meaningful way. They aren’t going away. We do need to talk.

Glenda

 

[Tigg]

Thanks, but no thanks, after reading the link you posted he sounded very aburpt in his writings, and this statement is just…unbelievable…

*What would priestesses mean, what would they symbolize? They would signify to all women that they are spiritual lesbians instead of brides. *

Seems he thinks women who would desire to serve the church as mad, feminists…

No - if you were to read the entire context in the book I think you would understand more fully. He is a highly regarded Catholic professor with impeccable credentials, actually a convert I believe, and faithful to all church teachings.

 

[Mark121359]

I think much of the problem of the subject of “women priests” is due to this being viewed as an “equality” issue. The secular world view could care less what JPll or Peter Kreeft or anyone with a theological background has to say about this. Much like the way they could care less about their thoughts about SSM, contraception, or divorce. It seems cliché, but to them the Church truly is living in the stone age. I work with liberal Catholics who have told me just that! They see women as police officers, fire fighters, fighter pilots and you name it. Which, not too long ago was completely unheard of. Nothing in this “modernistic” world should prevent them from becoming anything!..
including priests! I have become completely convinced that Christ Himself could tell them differently…and it would fall on deaf ears. Just my proverbial :twocents:

Peace, Mark

 

[Bruised_Reed]

From what I can tell, women who most want to be priests are lacking characteristics I want in a priest, characteristics that make a good priest: obedience, humility and holiness. And I’ll add one more: enough intellect to be able to read and nuance Church teachings from the Code of Canon Law, encyclicals, apostolic letters so time and energy isn’t wasted on on rallying for something that the Church can’t do. I don’t want priests who can’t/won’t “Say the Black Do the Red”. I mean is that so hard? It’s a freaking ritual. Don’t mess with it. I don’t care if someone wants to have *fruit bread for the GLB people and short bread for children for the Eucharist they are not welcome to mess with the Mass.

*Not kidding. Saw it on a video from some conference in the Boston area circa 1998. A woman was suggesting these things in such an earnest way. I mean I “got” the fruit bread thing but short bread? What does that have to do with children? Because they are short(er)? Puleeze. Here, have some nut bread.

 

[glendab]

Hello Bruised.

From what I can tell, women who most want to be priests are lacking characteristics I want in a priest, characteristics that make a good priest: obedience, humility and holiness. And I’ll add one more: enough intellect to be able to read and nuance Church teachings from the Code of Canon Law, encyclicals, apostolic letters so time and energy isn’t wasted on on rallying for something that the Church can’t do. I don’t want priests who can’t/won’t “Say the Black Do the Red”. I mean is that so hard? It’s a freaking ritual. Don’t mess with it. I don’t care if someone wants to have *fruit bread for the GLB people and short bread for children for the Eucharist they are not welcome to mess with the Mass.

*Not kidding. Saw it on a video from some conference in the Boston area circa 1998. A woman was suggesting these things in such an earnest way. I mean I “got” the fruit bread thing but short bread? What does that have to do with children? Because they are short(er)? Puleeze. Here, have some nut bread.

Love it! I think they may be Nut-bread myself. Banana-nut-bread.

Glenda

 

[edwest2]

Hello Ignatius.

While yes I agree with you 110%. The issue is a non-issue and that in an official way, cannot be discussed. However, the fact remains that there are over 120 women priests who have been ordained in the US and Canada and their numbers are increasing. We really cannot just ignore this fact. When the faithful talk about this, we aren’t endorsing them but calling all to be aware that there really is a problem and it fosters this sad distortion of the faith. Where did this come from and where is it going? We as the faithful can repeat the words of OS and other documents, but that does nothing to stop them nor does it arm anyone who may have to defend themselves or the Church from the rhetoric these women and their supporters spew. Ignoring the elephant in the room only makes the elephant larger. It is my opinion that we do need to talk about it so as to know how to respond to it in a clear and meaningful way. They aren’t going away. We do need to talk.

Glenda

No conversation is possible. If any are Catholic, they are automatically excommunicated. There are others that call themselves Catholic but as a group, they are against this or that clear Church teaching. I don’t know what clear and meaningful way one can talk to people who ignore or reject clear Church teaching. This is not a case of a one-way conversation and this will not be the last thread about womenpriests.

Feel free to contact them if you want.

Ed

 

[glendab]

Hello Ed.

No conversation is possible. If any are Catholic, they are automatically excommunicated. There are others that call themselves Catholic but as a group, they are against this or that clear Church teaching. I don’t know what clear and meaningful way one can talk to people who ignore or reject clear Church teaching. This is not a case of a one-way conversation and this will not be the last thread about womenpriests.

Feel free to contact them if you want.

Ed

I don’t know if you’ve noticed it but here at CAF we do talk to Catholics who hold any number of erroneous beliefs contrary to Church teaching and many of the conversations are very clear and meaningful and others who watch the dialog develop learn from it and have their doubts and misunderstandings cleared up and occasionally someone leaves behind their false teaching and returns to the good graces of the Church. People revert/convert as a direct result of engaging in conversations here. That is another good reason why discussions with these women and their supporters should happen.

There may be a young girl out there whose mom is a banana nut bread type who out of loyalty to her mom tries to agree with her and the mother daughter bond prevents her from stepping away. But if she comes here and reads stuff counter to the rhetoric she hears at her own dinner table, she may decide mom is wrong but still lovable and decide for herself to leave mom’s views behind and learn the truth. But if there is no place to talk about it, how can she get the help she really needs? To me this is a very real situation. There are women who are directing their daughters in the direction of an inclusive Priesthood and those girls are worth saving. They need to be helped. We do need to talk.

Glenda

 

[Tigg]

Hello Ed.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed it but here at CAF we do talk to Catholics who hold any number of erroneous beliefs contrary to Church teaching and many of the conversations are very clear and meaningful and others who watch the dialog develop learn from it and have their doubts and misunderstandings cleared up and occasionally someone leaves behind their false teaching and returns to the good graces of the Church. People revert/convert as a direct result of engaging in conversations here. That is another good reason why discussions with these women and their supporters should happen.

There may be a young girl out there whose mom is a banana nut bread type who out of loyalty to her mom tries to agree with her and the mother daughter bond prevents her from stepping away. But if she comes here and reads stuff counter to the rhetoric she hears at her own dinner table, she may decide mom is wrong but still lovable and decide for herself to leave mom’s views behind and learn the truth. But if there is no place to talk about it, how can she get the help she really needs? To me this is a very real situation. There are women who are directing their daughters in the direction of an inclusive Priesthood and those girls are worth saving. They need to be helped. We do need to talk.

Glenda

Glenda - we can hope and pray that there are conversions on this apologetics site. That’s the only reason I post here. But you said it best in your own words. “The issue is a non-issue.” It has already been settled and cast in stone by the Church and yet here is another thread on women priests. Although we may not judge the state of their souls, to me this indicates there are those who will never listen to the Church nor be open to persuasion, whether theological or spiritual because their own personal opinion takes precedence over God’s revealed truth. God does not force His teaching upon anyone and we can only pray for His enlightenment. Neither does He hide His truth, nor is it too difficult to be understood. In the daughter scenario you describe above, God’s grace will be sufficient for those and His guidance given to all if they are but open to it. It is His will all be saved.

 

[sallybutler]

Hello Ignatius.

While yes I agree with you 110%. The issue is a non-issue and that in an official way, cannot be discussed. However, the fact remains that there are over 120 women priests who have been ordained in the US and Canada and their numbers are increasing. We really cannot just ignore this fact. When the faithful talk about this, we aren’t endorsing them but calling all to be aware that there really is a problem and it fosters this sad distortion of the faith. Where did this come from and where is it going? We as the faithful can repeat the words of OS and other documents, but that does nothing to stop them nor does it arm anyone who may have to defend themselves or the Church from the rhetoric these women and their supporters spew. Ignoring the elephant in the room only makes the elephant larger. It is my opinion that we do need to talk about it so as to know how to respond to it in a clear and meaningful way. They aren’t going away. We do need to talk.

Glenda

Who ordained these women?

 

[Volor]

Who ordained these women?

Well, here is one very recent example (just from the last week!):

kansascity.com/news/local/article5392290.html

It was done at a Lutheran church, and according to the article:

Representatives of the Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests officiated.

This is what the local Diocese had to say about it:

The Catholic Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph last month issued a statement saying that because Walker’s ceremony did not involve the participation of any “validly ordained Catholic clergy,” it would not be commenting further.

 

[sallybutler]

Well, here is one very recent example (just from the last week!):

kansascity.com/news/local/article5392290.html

It was done at a Lutheran church, and according to the article:

Representatives of the Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests officiated.

This is what the local Diocese had to say about it:

The Catholic Diocese of Kansas City-St. Joseph last month issued a statement saying that because Walker’s ceremony did not involve the participation of any “validly ordained Catholic clergy,” it would not be commenting further.

I thought that in order to be a Catholic priest, one must be ordained by a bishop who was ordained by a bishop who was etc back to the apostles. It doesn’t sound like that happened in this case.

 

[edwest2]

Hello Ed.

I don’t know if you’ve noticed it but here at CAF we do talk to Catholics who hold any number of erroneous beliefs contrary to Church teaching and many of the conversations are very clear and meaningful and others who watch the dialog develop learn from it and have their doubts and misunderstandings cleared up and occasionally someone leaves behind their false teaching and returns to the good graces of the Church. People revert/convert as a direct result of engaging in conversations here. That is another good reason why discussions with these women and their supporters should happen.

There may be a young girl out there whose mom is a banana nut bread type who out of loyalty to her mom tries to agree with her and the mother daughter bond prevents her from stepping away. But if she comes here and reads stuff counter to the rhetoric she hears at her own dinner table, she may decide mom is wrong but still lovable and decide for herself to leave mom’s views behind and learn the truth. But if there is no place to talk about it, how can she get the help she really needs? To me this is a very real situation. There are women who are directing their daughters in the direction of an inclusive Priesthood and those girls are worth saving. They need to be helped. We do need to talk.

Glenda

Hello Glenda,

You’re right. I agree. However, I think one way to discuss this is to list the reasons or reasoning behind why women want to be priests. An understanding of their reasons can lead to a dialogue here that presents their beliefs and properly, and charitably, shows these beliefs and related historical references, as erroneous and so on. It is against the rules to provide direct links to these sites but I think they can be named for reference purposes since we should be careful to present their views accurately.

I work in the media and watch social trends as part of my job, and as a vocation. The word “inclusive” sounds pleasant but much like military terminology, it covers over or makes something unpleasant or negative sound agreeable or less bad. I know, and have seen a TV commercial, that, based on memory, showed a woman doing some work and there was a female voice-over that said, “I can be a soldier or a construction worker or a priest.”

A fair and accurate presentation of the reasons for this phenomenon would be helpful since though it is a significant issue, it is not the elephant in the room. It is something that needs to be described so that Catholics and anyone else reading, can grasp it.

Best,
Ed

 

[glendab]

Hello Tigg.

Glenda - we can hope and pray that there are conversions on this apologetics site. That’s the only reason I post here. But you said it best in your own words. “The issue is a non-issue.” It has already been settled and cast in stone by the Church and yet here is another thread on women priests. Although we may not judge the state of their souls, to me this indicates there are those who will never listen to the Church nor be open to persuasion, whether theological or spiritual because their own personal opinion takes precedence over God’s revealed truth. God does not force His teaching upon anyone and we can only pray for His enlightenment. Neither does He hide His truth, nor is it too difficult to be understood. In the daughter scenario you describe above, God’s grace will be sufficient for those and His guidance given to all if they are but open to it. It is His will all be saved.

So are you saying it shouldn’t be spoken of at all?

Glenda

 

[glendab]

Hello Ed.

Hello Glenda,

You’re right. I agree. However, I think one way to discuss this is to list the reasons or reasoning behind why women want to be priests. An understanding of their reasons can lead to a dialogue here that presents their beliefs and properly, and charitably, shows these beliefs and related historical references, as erroneous and so on. It is against the rules to provide direct links to these sites but I think they can be named for reference purposes since we should be careful to present their views accurately.

I work in the media and watch social trends as part of my job, and as a vocation. The word “inclusive” sounds pleasant but much like military terminology, it covers over or makes something unpleasant or negative sound agreeable or less bad. I know, and have seen a TV commercial, that, based on memory, showed a woman doing some work and there was a female voice-over that said, “I can be a soldier or a construction worker or a priest.”

A fair and accurate presentation of the reasons for this phenomenon would be helpful since though it is a significant issue, it is not the elephant in the room. It is something that needs to be described so that Catholics and anyone else reading, can grasp it.

Best,
Ed

Thank you for your respectful and insightful remarks. Yes, it would prove to be a disaster if by allowing the conversation to be held here, others were given the wrong ideas about Church teaching, but this same thing happens every day here at CAF over every other topic. Folks present their own agendas as if they are Church teaching all the time and refuting them and citing sources that expose them, is pretty much a good chunk of what goes on the boards. It goes on and on and on. Making this particular topic out of bounds does say something about it. But it can also say that fear is a huge factor in not discussing it. I guess I’m partial because I am a woman and because I have on more than one occasion found myself suspected of desiring the forbidden just because I’m a woman and happen to have an out-spoken personality or something. It shocked me and left a mark. That is another reason it needs discussion. But hey, I don’t know what is best for everyone and it isn’t my website, so I gotta go along with the pervading trend here because that is what the hosts have decided. It is their call, not mine. I just wish there was a way to talk about it, maybe a heavily monitored special forum for it. It is going to get worse. Eventually we will have to talk about these women and their supporters as they grow in numbers and have their own places of worship that will attract Catholics away from the true Church.

Glenda