women priests

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the question of women priests is a closed issue. this had been definitively settled by the magisterium of the Church and as such the faithful can only submit. those who persist are committing heresy.

a catholic bishop can consecrate a statue, or horse, bull, cat or dog, or hamster with a valid ritual of priestly ordination
None of these things have the same nature as a man.

Do men and women share one nature?

Specifically, do they share the nature that Jesus assumed for our salvation?

If they do, then clearly a woman isn’t in the same category as a statue or an animal, is she?

If they don’t, then how can women be saved?
my recommendation: join the protestants because these people already are. if you do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches, why spend the effort? there’s the anglicans, lutherans, episcopalians, etc. go there.
I don’t know who you are speaking to, but of course I am already an Episcopalian. And perhaps you are right. It would make my life much easier to drop out of RCIA right now. I am in it, for about the fourth time, because I think I ought to be in communion with Rome. But it’s clear that I don’t believe in the authority of the Church in the way that most folks on this forum do. I think you guys are determined to prove correct every Protestant and secularist caricature of blind Catholics who just accept dictates from Rome without thinking.

Edwin
 
dear contarini,

the weight of evidence, of history, of authority points to the fact that the Church has always held, has always taught and has always practiced that ordination is reserved specifically for men only. not even the orthodox churches argue against this.

if you truly seek the Kingdom of heaven promised to you by Jesus the Lord, you shall find it in the Catholic Church for the Church is the Kingdom of God here on earth.

“But I have calmed and quieted myself, I am like a weaned child with its mother; like a weaned child I am content.”

“Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

we tell you this because of our faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and what he handed down to His Church.
we teach this in the hope of your eternal salvation.
and we do this because of our love for God above all things and for you that you may merit eternal life.
 
As I have argued on these forums many times, the reason to ordain women is that women share in the human nature Christ assumed. To claim that they can’t act “in persona Christi” seems to deny this, which would mean that they shouldn’t be baptized and cannot be saved (or don’t need to be saved, or are saved by some means other than the Incarnation of the Logos in Jesus of Nazareth). All of these are heretical conclusions. Hence, the logic of orthodoxy actually seems to require women’s ordination.

The argument that Jesus only chose twelve men is a poor one, because there is nothing in the NT to indicate that he intended the maleness of the Twelve to be paradigmatic. The Twelve were also all Jews, but we all agree that Gentiles may be ordained. There is no record that any of them were slaves, and it’s extremely unlikely that any of them had blond hair.

Contrary to what a lot of Catholics claim, there are very plausible cultural reasons why Jesus would have chosen twelve men. This doesn’t “limit” Jesus except in the sense in which the Incarnation is a self-limiting. Obviously Jesus could disregard cultural norms when he chose (though even then he wasn’t disregarding them so much as violating them in ways that themselves made sense within his culture). And obviously he didn’t choose in this particular case. Possibly because the symbolism of the twelve sons of Jacob was important. At any rate, all we can deduce from this is that he wasn’t what we would call a feminist. Which may be shocking to some folks, but probably not to most on this forum. Jesus also did not directly challenge slavery, so the idea that he was a radical social reformer concerned with the things we think social reformers ought to be concerned with, and that any failure to act in accordance with 21st-century social norms must be explained, just doesn’t make sense.

The argument about pagan priestesses is also a poor one. While I do not deny that there is a sacerdotal aspect to the Christian episcopate and presbyterate, neither of these terms, nor the term “apostolos,” is simply equivalent to “hiereus” or the Latin “sacerdos.” Pagan priestesses had strictly ritual functions. Christian presbyters and bishops, as well as presiding at the Eucharist, were community leaders. The heretical communities that did ordain women were either Gnostic (arguing that the body didn’t matter) or Montanist (arguing that only the inspiration of the Spirit gave authority). The idea of a hierarchical authority structure requiring great qualities of reason and virtue in its members including women was, in fact, culturally unthinkable, and neither pagan priestesses nor heretical Christian communities ordaining women function as counter-examples to this.

Women were not ordained for centuries because women were thought to be inferior versions of humanity. That did not mean that women were not human or could no be saved, or could not be holy. But femininity was, in itself, seen as defective. This is well-documented from throughout the patristic, medieval, and early modern periods. Aquinas is the most obvious example, but it isn’t just Aquinas. Chrysostom said, “no women, and few men, should be ordained,” because to be ordained meant that one had to be fully possessed of rational faculties. This would have been obvious to most people. If you ask, “why didn’t Jesus challenge this ‘sexism’?” you have to ask also, “why didn’t Jesus challenge slavery?” And if you answer, “Jesus planted seeds that would lead people to reject slavery,” well, the same applies here.
That represents radical feminist thinking. Jesus, as God, did ignore the conditions of His times, and, as God, selected men, was a man, and referred to the Father. Catholics, regardless of guessing, are told the Church has no authority to ordain women. He planted no seeds regarding women and the priesthood.

Ed
 
now i know what it was like when people were arguing about angels dancing on the head of a pin. :rolleyes:

the deposit of faith is rather small. the roman church is conservative because it does not pretend to have power above what God has given it. in the first place because it is only a mouthpiece of the Holy Spirit. it cannot give something it does not have power to possess or to give. that is why it does not pretend to that it can ordain women because it can’t. it can’t permit divorce because it can’t. it can’t permit abortion because it can’t; among many other things.

to be a Catholic is to have a sense of obedience and humility and fear of God. Jesus didn’t institute the Church to oppress you but to save you. in the same way that a mother might quickly slap the hand of a child trying to reach a flame, it is meant to save you from harm.

the schisms and heresies that happened are partly because of pride and disobedience to the Church.

Henry VIII disobeyed so he can have his divorce.

Luther disobeyed because he only believed in salvation by faith alone.

Ecumenical councils were called to combat heresies because they disobeyed what the Church has taught on the Trinity, on Christ, on the mother of God, on infallibility, etc.

The devil was expelled from heaven because of disobedience and Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden because of disobedience.

you get the drift.

At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
 
The Church does not believe in continuing revelation. The primary duty of the magisterium, it’s only obligation, when presented with a seemingly new doctrine, or even a new formulation of a doctrine, is to ask: Is this what was handed down to us from the beginning? It is tasked with handing down the Faith, not engaging in theological study. There is nothing wrong with theological study, but that is not main task that Jesus gave to the apostles.
 
There remains no evidence that the Vatican has addressed the theological point about a common human nature and how that relates to Christ’s assumption of human nature for our salvation. None. And until that is addressed, the issue will not be truly settled.
It is interesting that you think the church has not settled an issue until she has settled it to your satisfaction. From her perspective, JPII’s proclamation in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis settled it for all time. It is explicitly declared an infallible teaching, and, for her, that ends the discussion. The fact that others find her explanation unconvincing is pretty much irrelevant. There is little doubt that others will continue to raise the issue, but the reality is that there is no possibility whatever that the church will even debate this question again, let alone reverse herself. That’s pretty much what settled means, and as far as the church is concerned, things don’t get more settled than this.

Ender
 
The Church does not believe in continuing revelation. The primary duty of the magisterium, it’s only obligation, when presented with a seemingly new doctrine, or even a new formulation of a doctrine, is to ask: Is this what was handed down to us from the beginning? It is tasked with handing down the Faith, not engaging in theological study. There is nothing wrong with theological study, but that is not main task that Jesus gave to the apostles.
The Church does not believe in continuing revelation.
John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

?

PJ
 
Questions were raised in the Church from the beginning. What about this and not this? This matter is settled for all time. However, it is often presented inaccurately as if the Church missed something. She didn’t.

Ed
 
the question of women priests is a closed issue. this had been definitively settled by the magisterium of the Church and as such the faithful can only submit. those who persist are committing heresy.

a catholic bishop can consecrate a statue, or horse, bull, cat or dog, or hamster with a valid ritual of priestly ordination but even if he does so, the form and substance of the one receiving the ordination is invalid, and therefore the transmission of ordination does not and cannot exist. not to mention that the bishop doing something so stupid excommunicates himself automatically. so for the same reason, since a female is not a valid form and substance to receive ordination, the priestly powers and authority are not transmitted and are not received and therefore could not exist. unfortunately, the outward signs pretend that they are priests which mislead people and is therefore a scandal and heresy in the eyes of the Church.

my recommendation: join the protestants because these people already are. if you do not believe what the Catholic Church teaches, why spend the effort? there’s the anglicans, lutherans, episcopalians, etc. go there.
since a female is not a valid form and substance to receive ordination,
Can a male even begin to imagine what it is like for females (at least some of us) to read stuff like this - not just here but in many places? I’ll give ya a hint…it’s a trip. 🙂

I don’t fight against it anymore; I just hope, one day, to understand the basis for the reasoning. Do men sin in a holy way while women do not? Inquiring minds would love to know. 🙂

Kidding aside, what if some women do harbor a "Jezebel spirit’? Humility wasn’t her strong suit. 😉

“There should be self-criticism about motivation, testing whether dissent is driven by innate hostility or some other hidden agenda, rather than by sincere conviction of the truth.” (Lifted from an article by Elizabeth Johnson.)

PJ
 
As Contarini has tried RCIA so many times, it would seem wise to desist further until assent to doctrine is realized.

The Pope’s own words in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis: definitive tenendum, mean precisely “requiring to be held definitively.”

Closely following Bishop Gasser’s explanation, Vatican II shows that it considers the words “define” and “proclaim” to be equivalent by using the word “definition” when it states: “Therefore his definitions are rightly called irreformable, etc.” Lumen Gentium, 25].

“In the final analysis, therefore, the reason the Church has always rejected female service in the sanctuary is that such service is very closely related, both symbolically and often causally, to the ministerial priesthood itself. And this can never possibly be conferred upon women, as John Paul II declared on the Feast of Pentecost last year in what is clearly an infallible, *ex cathedra *definition. 10
Note:
“10. It stops short, however, of being a solemn dogmatic definition on a par with those of the Immaculate Conception and Assumption, which are defined as truths of faith, binding on pain of heresy. Cf. the present writer’s article, “Cardinal Ratzinger on Ordinatio Sacerdotalis,” *The Priest *(Journal of the Australian Confraternity of Catholic Clergy), Spring 1994 / Summer 1995, pp. 5-6.”
rtforum.org/lt/lt58.html
 
John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

?

PJ
Note that Jesus was here speaking to the apostles, before Pentecost, of course, which would happen after he ascended into heaven. The Holy Spirit did come upon the apostles at Pentecost. The Spirit does not give contradictory doctrine to individuals, as some outside observer might think if observing the state of Christianity today, with numerous denominations each claiming the guidance of the Holy Spirit…
 
You have mentioned in passing that only one third of the Catholics believe in the real presence but this cannot be true.There are 126 Eucharistic miracles around the world which bear testimony and Catholics cannot be oblivious to these facts.I have seen the exhibition and there is no scientific explanation for these phenomenon.From the materialistic point of view there could be a debate whether Females could be Priests or not but is this important? Judging from the Spiritual angle the important thing is the realize that living on earth is only a transitory phase and we are being groomed for our eternal life and the Church instituted by Jesus Christ has decided that males will have the exclusive role of being priests and lets accept it if Priest are males or females does not matter.When Jesus was asked the question after a series of marriages according to Jewish law whose wife will the person be after death Jesus said there is no male or female in Heaven and they will be like angels.It does not really matter. Women have the most important role to play in this transitory life the role of a Mother or a carer.
 
now i know what it was like when people were arguing about angels dancing on the head of a pin. :rolleyes:
No, you don’t. The scholastics might burn me at the stake, but they would deal with my arguments seriously. I’d take them over you lot any day. You are terrified of actually engaging this issue substantively.

Edwin
 
The Church does not believe in continuing revelation. The primary duty of the magisterium, it’s only obligation, when presented with a seemingly new doctrine, or even a new formulation of a doctrine, is to ask: Is this what was handed down to us from the beginning? It is tasked with handing down the Faith, not engaging in theological study. There is nothing wrong with theological study, but that is not main task that Jesus gave to the apostles.
You can’t hand down the faith without engaging in theological study. Again, look at the Arian controversy. Plenty of theological study was necessary in order to preserve the faith.

Edwin
 
Can a male even begin to imagine what it is like for females (at least some of us) to read stuff like this - not just here but in many places? I’ll give ya a hint…it’s a trip. 🙂

I don’t fight against it anymore; I just hope, one day, to understand the basis for the reasoning. Do men sin in a holy way while women do not? Inquiring minds would love to know. 🙂
PJ
It has nothing to do with moral character. It has to do with ontology. The claim is that women are different from men and thus can’t act in persona Christi.

I don’t think the theological anthropology behind this has been worked out, or that the significant differences between the modern Catholic understanding (in which men and women are equal but different) and the traditional cultural view inherited from the pagans (in which women were inferior) have been adequately addressed. But it has nothing to do with thinking men holier or more moral than women.

Edwin
 
On Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
October 28, 1995

“**Dubium: **Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter [Epistle] *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis *to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.
Responsum: In the affirmative.

“This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.”

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm

The meaning of the word ‘define’ was explained to the Fathers of Vatican I, before they promulgated the dogma of papal infallibility, as follows: “the pope is said to ‘define’ a doctrine when he passes judgment directly and finally, ‘in such a way that each and every Catholic can be certain as to the mind of the Apostolic See and of the Roman Pontiff.’ ”
 
On Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
October 28, 1995

“**Dubium: **Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter [Epistle] *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis *to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.
Responsum: In the affirmative.

“This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.”

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm

The meaning of the word ‘define’ was explained to the Fathers of Vatican I, before they promulgated the dogma of papal infallibility, as follows: “the pope is said to ‘define’ a doctrine when he passes judgment directly and finally, ‘in such a way that each and every Catholic can be certain as to the mind of the Apostolic See and of the Roman Pontiff.’ ”
Abu, I’m aware of this information.

Now do you have anything to say about the theological points I’ve raised? Or are they simply uninteresting to you? If so, why are you still participating in this conversation?

No one is disputing that Pope JPII made a solemn statement declaring the matter closed, and that the CDF has since said that the statement was infallible, although in a somewhat indirect manner.

Happy now?
 
On Ordinatio Sacerdotalis
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
October 28, 1995

“**Dubium: **Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter [Epistle] *Ordinatio Sacerdotalis *to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.
Responsum: In the affirmative.

“This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.”

Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
ewtn.com/library/curia/cdfrespo.htm

The meaning of the word ‘define’ was explained to the Fathers of Vatican I, before they promulgated the dogma of papal infallibility, as follows: “the pope is said to ‘define’ a doctrine when he passes judgment directly and finally, ‘in such a way that each and every Catholic can be certain as to the mind of the Apostolic See and of the Roman Pontiff.’ ”
This is the answer. Thank you.

Ed
 
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