Women Scorn Veiled Women. Why?

[Pug]

cargopilot:

Why do women treat veiled women so badly?

Because some women/people are like that. That’s life. I don’t think that it is a veil matters much. It could be unshaven legs or looking “sloppy”. Anything that stands out. When people are younger and in crammed buildings being super bored (aka school), they can be quite cliquish and cruel. I think some women retain the fear of that when they grow older.

There is also a chance of the attack taking the form of being “better” than others. That is another common form of attack in school years, so why should veils be exempt? It would be the same as being attacked for handing in your homework typed when it didn’t have to be. Others may decide to criticize your behavior. That’s life among your fellow men.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Augustine:

That’s quite telling that veils ended up being equated with chadors, jabibs and burkas…

Not all veils.

Veils in St. Paul’s era.

If a person wants to be truly “covered” and cites St. Paul, then one would want veiling like that of St. Paul’s era. That’s all I’m trying to say. The women in St. Paul’s era did not wear pretty pieces of lace on their heads. They wore veiling that was similar to chadors, jabibs, and burkas. It was thick and translucent to semi-opaque.

The other veils, the lacey ones, don’t really cover anything.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

beckyann2597:

To be honest, I have never seen a person wear a viel who was not getting married. I had to look up “mantilla” on google so I could see what you all were even talking about. You are talking about the Spanish style lace hair accessory, right? Your not talking about 50’s style pillbox hats? Or are you talking about any head coverings for women during mass? I think women don’t wear them because they are not 1)fashionable and 2)easy to find. I suspect you would have to buy them special order or something. Personally, I don’t care if someone wears it or not. I personally love the pillbox style vieled hats, but I don’t know if I could pull it off.

Now see, I like pillbox hats, too. And these cute little hats from the 1960s called “lids” that are smaller than a “golf duffer” hat but cut in the same style out of expensive fabric and blocked with a bill…

…And I just remembered my fifth objection (I misnumbered). Men of the present generation do not remember the style contests that used to take place at any high Mass, and several low Masses in any given parish. The emphasis was less on Jesus and more on who had the nicest drss or suit, and what topped that dress or suit.

And let us not forget the gloves!!! Were the other ladies in the parish wearing 3/4 length sleeves and so in need of gloves that came to the midpoint of the forearm? Were wrist-length gloves suitable with a cap-sleeved summer dress (because you never, ever went to Mass in a sleeveless dress!).

And Heaven forbid listening to the uncharitable remarks on other women’s clothing!!!

Does that make the explanation clearer?

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

beckyann2597:

I’m sorry, I don’t understand your reply. You don’t believe I’ve never seen a woman wearing a mantilla or viel at a weekly mass? I assure I haven’t. Maybe it’s where I live? I guess it depends on where you are in the world and the average age of the parishoners. Most people at my parish are around my age, young with families. I grew up way after the Vatican 2 reforms, so maybe if you have a lot of people from pre Vatican 2 days at your parish, then you would see it.

Well, we have three different types of people who wear them in our parish.

Type One: Consecrated virgins. This is a sacramental to them. Nobody has said so much as a “boo” and nobody I know is untoward in their actions about them. Shoot, we have three and more on the way in formation!

Type Two: The devout. Nobody says anything nasty about them, either.

Type Three: These are ladies on a mission. They come from someplace else, and are not regular parishioners. They seem bent in trying to catch Father at doing something wrong. They try to ask other parishioners questions after daily Mass about how Father celebrates, and watch Father’s every movement. Father is a very good priest, and he doesn’t batt an eyelash or miss a cue, even when these ladies kneel for Communion in line (although those of us directly behind them sometimes trip and alost fall over said ladies, and why it might not be a bad idea to start using the Communion rails again).

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Some of our women wear headcoverings, most of them don’t. They range from hats to mantillas to the little round things made of lace that are perched on top of their heads. I don’t have an opinion one way or another, except to observe that OutinChcgoburbs is more than likely correct: in the days of Saint Paul, the women probably wore veils more like what the Blessed Mother wore in “The Passion of the Christ” (big “coverall” type things) than like the ones you see Her depicted in in statuary in most churches. I shouldn’t like to see a woman made to wear that, in any society.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

cargopilot:

It might be just my interpretation, but in my parish if you want to be a mis-fit, there’s no quicker way than by wearing a veil. I’ve heard the talk about the two or three in my parish who did for a little while, and it was brutal. My wife would like to wear a veil, but never will, simply from fear of wholesale exclusion. And the talk on these boards…WOAH, it’s tough.

Personally, I really admire any female who has the guts to do it.

Hello there Cargopilot…I agree with your Post. Having had some experience of Parish disapproval and how lost I feel in the face of it, I am very careful when I go to Mass to ‘be like the others’ in all things including dress.

I too admire those who persevere in any sort of ‘difference’ including wearing a veil, which I think is very feminine and respectful. It reveals to me that this person is in awe of The Blessed Sacrament and The Mass etc.

I guess we will always have those amongst us so insecure they must have everyone like them…and tend to move in groups that feel the same way and ostracize and criticize ‘the different’.

I remember once on going to a rather large gathering at our Carmelite Monastery here wearing a head scarfe as I had not washed my hair and it was a mess. After the Mass and while sitting in the garden having a quiet smoke a Carmelite priest walked up to me, I thought to tell me off for smoking…but he was very profuse rather in his congratulations on being the only woman who had covered her head!!! I did not discuss my real motivation - vanity!

…one cant please everyone, but it sure is comforting and a means of security(!!!) to be able to please a few at least… and human beings do like to feel comfort and security and oft choose the means they hope will achieve such.

Regards Barb

 

[robertaf]

Here we go again!!

Fear, envy???
Give me a break.

GIVE ME A BREAK!!!

Just how silly can Catholics get?

Why would anyone fear you??? Whats to fear.

Why on earth would anyone envy you? If I envied you, I would also wear a veil. I am sure I have several packed away somewhere.

Don’t you understand that many of us are pre Vatican II (also pre-Bayside, where I suspect much of this nonsense came from)

If we cared to continue wearing veils, kneeling at the Communion rail, and sticking where we were, we would have done it. We had permission to.

Ya don’t seem to get the fact that you are no holier than any of the rest of your Catholic sisters. You don’t even LOOK holier if this is what you have in mind.

Why don’t you just suck it up and get over all this divisive nonsense. Isn’t the Body of Christ torn up enough? Does it have to continue from the inside? Leave all this stuff in Gods hands. We just continue to botch things up.

They call it Spiritual Pride.

 

[Nan_S]

JKirkLVNV:

Some of our women wear headcoverings, most of them don’t. They range from hats to mantillas to the little round things made of lace that are perched on top of their heads. I don’t have an opinion one way or another, except to observe that OutinChcgoburbs is more than likely correct: in the days of Saint Paul, the women probably wore veils more like what the Blessed Mother wore in “The Passion of the Christ” (big “coverall” type things) than like the ones you see Her depicted in in statuary in most churches. I shouldn’t like to see a woman made to wear that, in any society.

I hope you find this funny:

I was in grade school before Vatican II, and remember when wearing something - anything - on the head was mandatory for women. Most of the time we had chapel veils, little lace doilies nowadays most commonly found under lamps and potted plants. The only way they stayed on was with bobby pins.

Now picture a frazzled Catholic mother with a flock of young children (my Mom ), trying to get them all dressed properly for Mass. After much frantic effort the family is finally bundled into the car and arrives at the church. As the parents hustle them inside the mother suddenly realizes one of the daughters (me ) doesn’t have her chapel veil.

What did you do with it? I dunno…

Well, faced with the awful prospect of missing the first part of mass to search for the veil, the resourceful mom digs into her purse for SOMETHING to put on her daughter’s head and finds…

A kleenex.

I never lost my veil again.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Prior to the 1983 change in canon law, I have been the wearer of a kleenex. I hope yours wasn’t used.

We also had, for school, the beanie- which required bobbie pins towards the middle of the year because one’s head would grow- and the hat clip, which was painful because it had rivets on either side at the temples right above the ears.

See, this is why I think men- not women, certianly not women who choose or feel led to wear veils- don’t get the big picture. All they seem to see is pretty lace covering a female head. They quote St. Paul, but they go for the pretty lace that was not even all that common prior to Vatican II.

And I for one have NEVER made fun of a what a woman chose to wear on her head, or scorned her. I think more women might be open to the possibility if more men did not try to force it down women’s throats, or onto women’s heads.

 

[system]

robertaf:

If we cared to continue wearing veils, kneeling at the Communion rail, and sticking where we were, we would have done it. We had permission to.

Ya don’t seem to get the fact that you are no holier than any of the rest of your Catholic sisters. You don’t even LOOK holier if this is what you have in mind.

Why don’t you just suck it up and get over all this divisive nonsense. Isn’t the Body of Christ torn up enough? Does it have to continue from the inside? Leave all this stuff in Gods hands. We just continue to botch things up.

They call it Spiritual Pride.

I don’t understand why it is so bothersome to some people for women to wear veils. St. Paul said that a woman who prayed without a veil brought shame to her head. I have never seen one picture of Mary without a veil on her head and she is the Queen of the Angels. Women who wear the veil are not looking to “look holier”, the are looking to be holier. I could care less about what anyone else thinks. My veil helps me concentrate on the mass. If we are supposed to wear a veil if wew are in front of the Pope, why should it be any different when we are in front of God?

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

vicia3:

If we are supposed to wear a veil if wew are in front of the Pope, why should it be any different when we are in front of God?

I’d like to see your cite on that. I checked out vatican.va thoroughly. What DOES have to be covered are shoulders and thighs, by both genders.

If you are referring to Laura Bush and Condee Rice during PJII’s funeral, that was their choice. Many other women we not veiled. If you are referring to Jackie Kennedy, that was a long time ago.

And it was never a veil. It was a head covering (hat, babuska, etc.).

 

[carol_marie]

These are my veil questions:

Are veils something that only American women have given up? In other countries are women still covering their head? I recently saw a movie where the Mexican woman wore a veil in mass. Also, I remember at the Pope’s viewing Mrs. Bush wore a veil. I wondered why?

Also, several made mention that a piece of lace doesn’t actually cover much - which is true. Is the veil more symbolic - an acceptance that women should be in submission to men? Yikes… that doesn’t sound quite right… (must be the former Born Again Christian in me coming out) I’m not sure that’s what Catholics would call it… (submission) so explain the whole veil thing to me please - even if it isn’t necessary now… why was it before?

Thanks!

P.S. And in answer to the OP - women always pick on other women. If it’s not because of veils - it’s because of breastfeeding - or homeschooling - or working - or staying at home with the kids - whatever… women just seem to pick on other women who do things differently. I’ve always attributed it to insecurity.

 

[robertaf]

vicia3:

I don’t understand why it is so bothersome to some people for women to wear veils. St. Paul said that a woman who prayed without a veil brought shame to her head. I have never seen one picture of Mary without a veil on her head and she is the Queen of the Angels. Women who wear the veil are not looking to “look holier”, the are looking to be holier. I could care less about what anyone else thinks. My veil helps me concentrate on the mass. If we are supposed to wear a veil if wew are in front of the Pope, why should it be any different when we are in front of God?

The fact is, you have never seen a picture of Mary.
Go figure it out.
What you have seen is someones idea of what Mary looked like.
You want to get down to facts???
Mary was probably not light skinned and light haired as the pictures show. She was probably dark skinned and look much like the Arabs we see today.
Mary was probably not tall and slim as pictures show. She was probably broad and very muscular. Women walked miles, carried heavy heavy jugs of water daily on their heads and shoulders. She was probably rather hairy and had deep calouses on her hands.

You need to get away from the paintings you grew up with.
I doubt very much that our Blessed Mother wore lace.
I also doubt it was worn to “be Holy”. She was holy.
You can wear halos on your head and you will never achieve her kind holiness.

And… Pauls teachings as far as women covering their heads was not Christian. They were Ortodox Jew.
You need to spend more time studying what Paul wrote and in context with his Jewish beliefs.
By the way, do you also keep quiet in church and never ever teach men. That would be your own husbands and sons, as well.
Are you fully submissive to your husband or are you picking and choosing???

 

[carol_marie]

A very wise person once told me that women pick on other women because we’re hormonal. I think that pretty much sums it up. Hormones make us :whacky:

 

[JCPhoenix]

Robertaf,

You react so strongly when someone criticizes your spirituality, Charismatic. I admire your courage in defending your spirituality.

And I have also gotten involved in the CCR…yet, I am one of those who also chooses to wear a veil, so I have had the opportunity to see you spew the same hatred which is focused upon you.

So some wear a veil, and you like to wave your hands in the air in your own worship. Is there really anything wrong with either?

No, there is not. Both forms of worship are completely faithful to the Magesterium, both have the blessing of the Pope, and both are considered to be personal acts of devotion.

So why are you so offended?

It really doesn’t matter what the history of the veil happens to be…the reality is that women today are feeling a call to cover their heads, and we are following that call. Does that mean any of us think we are any holier, or any of us know any more, or think that everyone should be required to do this? No.

I just don’t understand the vitriol expressed by people who are otherwise charitable on these forums. What is is about the mantilla, headcovering, and lace veil that so upsets people?

Get a life! Move on! If you don’t like it get over it! You don’t have to wear one…so why are you P**** all over someone else’s personal devotion?

If I sound ticked off, I am! I’m sick of coming to these board to see so much hatred and assessment of motives you know nothign about! You sit there and are so abused when someone disagrees with the particual spiritualites you possess, yet when someone else has a practice that differs from yours you have no problem in condemning them to hell.

I’m so sorry that we humans are such pits of vipers. Would that we could be more welcoming, more accepting of different customs and more willing to let people follow their hearts in obedience to God. We do not all belong in the same categories of spirituality.

I will continue to cover my head, and know that the attiudes expressed her only strengthen my resolve to do so. If my parish priest asks me to remove it, I will be obedient.

Don’t tell me that I have to speak in tongues to be “charismatic” and I won’t tell you that you have to wear a veil.

This is not really about women scorning the veil…it is about people who are not willing to accept that some people worship God differently than they do. There is much leeway within the Church for different expressions of faith, and yet, for some reason, we are always at war.

This is not what God intended, or maybe he did…so we can grow in virtue.

Obviously I need to work on patience and temperance.

 

[robertaf]

JCPhoenix:

Robertaf,

You react so strongly when someone criticizes your spirituality, Charismatic. I admire your courage in defending your spirituality.

And I have also gotten involved in the CCR…yet, I am one of those who also chooses to wear a veil, so I have had the opportunity to see you spew the same hatred which is focused upon you.

So some wear a veil, and you like to wave your hands in the air in your own worship. Is there really anything wrong with either?

No, there is not. Both forms of worship are completely faithful to the Magesterium, both have the blessing of the Pope, and both are considered to be personal acts of devotion.

So why are you so offended?

It really doesn’t matter what the history of the veil happens to be…the reality is that women today are feeling a call to cover their heads, and we are following that call. Does that mean any of us think we are any holier, or any of us know any more, or think that everyone should be required to do this? No.

I just don’t understand the vitriol expressed by people who are otherwise charitable on these forums. What is is about the mantilla, headcovering, and lace veil that so upsets people?

Get a life! Move on! If you don’t like it get over it! You don’t have to wear one…so why are you P**** all over someone else’s personal devotion?

If I sound ticked off, I am! I’m sick of coming to these board to see so much hatred and assessment of motives you know nothign about! You sit there and are so abused when someone disagrees with the particual spiritualites you possess, yet when someone else has a practice that differs from yours you have no problem in condemning them to hell.

I’m so sorry that we humans are such pits of vipers. Would that we could be more welcoming, more accepting of different customs and more willing to let people follow their hearts in obedience to God. We do not all belong in the same categories of spirituality.

I will continue to cover my head, and know that the attiudes expressed her only strengthen my resolve to do so. If my parish priest asks me to remove it, I will be obedient.

Don’t tell me that I have to speak in tongues to be “charismatic” and I won’t tell you that you have to wear a veil.

This is not really about women scorning the veil…it is about people who are not willing to accept that some people worship God differently than they do. There is much leeway within the Church for different expressions of faith, and yet, for some reason, we are always at war.

This is not what God intended, or maybe he did…so we can grow in virtue.

Obviously I need to work on patience and temperance.

I suggest you go back and read the posts I responded to.

You might read how we are accused of fear and envy. This is what I think is silly.
I don’t care one bit of someone wants to wear a veil or anything else.
This post was started by someone who accused other women of scorning them for being veiled.

Be fair. I do not hate anyone but I do dislike some of the accusations that go on in some of these threads.

I do tend to over-react to this sort of stuff.

 

[YinYangMom]

To me, I wouldn’t gossip about anyone wearing a veil, but the second thing I’d notice (after the veil) would be the age of the woman. I’d expect her to be elderly and just one of those ‘old school’ Catholics. I’d know that wearing the veil is her comfort zone, to not wear it after all she knew being raised to wear one would just seem/feel ‘wrong’, and I’d respect her devoutness.

If the woman were younger, I’d have to admit my eyebrow would raise a bit, wondering why she would be wearing one when she wasn’t raised to do so.

I don’t understand this seemingly ‘in-your-face’ revolution going on in parishes taking issue with Vatican II norms. The rise in people switching parishes in favor of those offereing Tridentine masses, people insisting on kneeling to receive communion, or receiving on the tongue when one’s hands are not carrying a young child or holding onto their walkers, and the wearing of veils…all of this, to me, appears as much a protest against the NO as the rainbow sash wearing LGBT Catholics protesting against the Church for their reasons.

Now, perhaps that is not the intent behind a younger woman wearing a veil to mass, but where did she get the notion to do so if she was raised post-Vatican II, why does she choose to take on an old tradition and why would she expect doing so NOT to turn any heads or start the gossip mills running?

That’s just my observation. In all honesty, after asking those questions of myself upon seeing young woman I’d immediately ask God’s forgiveness for having uncharitable thoughts and then go about with my regular Mass focus. No, I would not gossip about the lady to anyone, I’d respect her actions, but in the back of my mind I would still be wondering what statement she was trying to make.

So perhaps you can help me understand a younger woman wearing a veil - is it because she believes it makes her more reverant than those who do not? If it’s because she believes it’s more pleasing to Our Lord, then why does she feel her belief is better than the Church’s?

Now, in Rome, at the Vatican, yes, veils are still required but that’s when the Pope is present - out of deep respect for his position, but in our local parish?? I just don’t understand.

 

[system]

robertaf:

The fact is, you have never seen a picture of Mary.
Go figure it out.

I am sorry, I do not believe that any of my tones were attacking to you, but I have to disagree withyou here. I have seen many pictures of Mary. A lot of them are painted by people who have seen Mary. Her appearence changes to whomever she appears to and yet she is always wearing a veil. I do not understand why you are so bitter about this. I did not grow up with pictures of Mary. I did not grow up Catholic. I have had the special Grace to delve into my religion from a convert view. Why does it matter so much to you that she did not wear lace. The only reason I wear lace is because that is all I could afford. I don’t understand why this offends you either.

robertaf:

And… Pauls teachings as far as women covering their heads was not Christian. They were Ortodox Jew.
You need to spend more time studying what Paul wrote and in context with his Jewish beliefs.
By the way, do you also keep quiet in church and never ever teach men. That would be your own husbands and sons, as well.
Are you fully submissive to your husband or are you picking and choosing???

We started as Jew, our church is based on tradition. Yes, Paul’s teachings were 100% Christian. All of them were, otherwise it would not be divinly inspired. Yes, I do keep quiet in the church and no, I will never be a priest or consider that I could ever be one. I am human and I do try to be fully submissive to my husband. How about you? Do you fight all of the churches teachings or do you just pick and choose?

 

[Forest-Pine]

Well, why don’t a number of us choose a day to wear head coverings and then report back what we encounter?

I have long wanted to wear one but have been fearful of … well … I guess, looks. I have no reason to be fearful, but it just is back there in my head saying, “Nahhhh, better not, THEY might talk.” Who is they? I have no clue. So why don’t we try it together and see what happens?

Some heard scarf tying instructions (with great pics):

Dutch Crown
The Butterfly
Rapunzel
The Bun
Snood Band
Jerusalem Twist
Glitter Glamour
The Crown
The Ponytail
The Classic Tie
The Braid
The Ribbon

 

[Forest-Pine]

YinYangMom:

If the woman were younger, I’d have to admit my eyebrow would raise a bit, wondering why she would be wearing one when she wasn’t raised to do so.

I don’t understand this seemingly ‘in-your-face’ revolution going on in parishes taking issue with Vatican II norms. The rise in people switching parishes in favor of those offereing Tridentine masses, people insisting on kneeling to receive communion, or receiving on the tongue when one’s hands are not carrying a young child or holding onto their walkers, and the wearing of veils…all of this, to me, appears as much a protest against the NO as the rainbow sash wearing LGBT Catholics protesting against the Church for their reasons.

Now, perhaps that is not the intent behind a younger woman wearing a veil to mass, but where did she get the notion to do so if she was raised post-Vatican II, why does she choose to take on an old tradition and why would she expect doing so NOT to turn any heads or start the gossip mills running?

So perhaps you can help me understand a younger woman wearing a veil - is it because she believes it makes her more reverant than those who do not? If it’s because she believes it’s more pleasing to Our Lord, then why does she feel her belief is better than the Church’s?

I can’t speak for others, but I can tell you from my own perspective why I would like to wear a headcovering while at Mass.

1. I am a Novus Ordo babe. No Tridentines for me. No revolt. No desire to change the church.
2. I completely understand that the veil is a choice and would not think twice about people not wearing it/judge myself to them/etc.
3. I do not desire to wear a veil to gain favor with God or man.
4. To date, I have not worn a veil to church because I am fearful people will think of me as you would.
5. I would like to wear a veil as a sign of humility before the Lord, present in the church as Father (omnipresent), Son (Eucharist), and Holy Spirit (indwelling within each of us and within the church body as a whole).
6. I would like to wear a veil because I find myself being vain, wondering if my hair is messed up, etc. and then chastising myself for thinking about such things in church.
7. I would like to wear a veil so that I do not feel like I am in competition with other women (again, referring to #6) and will have a reminder for MYSELF what I am there to do.
8. I would like to wear a veil because I have great respect for my Moslem and Jewish friends who place such importance on respect of sexuality and the female body, evidenced through their clothing and head coverings.
9. I would like to wear a veil because my long hair is often commented on and it makes me uncomfortable to know others were admiring my hair while in church.
10. I would like to wear a veil because I feel a genuine tug in my heart to do so.
11. I would like to wear a veil as part of setting a good example for my daughter in how she should view herself, her body, and her relationship with the Lord.
12. I would like to wear a veil because it has a strong tradition of thousands of years of faithful women wearing it, and while the last 40 years in America have been a little different, I also have always been a bit of an old soul.

(I would also consider a hat in its place if I weren’t fearful that people behind me would complain about not being able to see.)