Women Scorn Veiled Women. Why?

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I said in a previous thread that I had purchased a Mantilla online, received it, but have not yet worn it. I also said the reasoning on why I haven’t worn it is because I just don’t have the guts. My saying this wasn’t geared towards the “cattiness” (sp?) of other women, its simply because I don’t want to stand out. I dislike drawing attention to myself (especially in Church) and would feel most uncomfortable. Its sad to say but if wearing a veil was of the norm I would do it in a heartbeat, but since its not I will just have to wait until I get up enough nerve. For those women out there who do wear one I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration for you.

Just a quick story on why I initially got discouraged from wearing one. I joined the Church this past Easter. After joining, I emailed our RCIA teacher and asked her what she thought about me wearing a veil to Mass. Her answer? “There’s no reason to wear one, if women should have to wear one then men should have to wear something too, if women knew what it meant to simply be veiled at their wedding they would never wear it in the first place”…and so on and so forth. This coming from the religious educator of my previous parish. Needless to say, it wasn’t the answer I expected and it actually got me quite angry with her.

One day I will wear one, when the time is right. As I said, for those who do wear one I commend you from the bottom of my heart.
 
Forest-Pine said:
Well, why don’t a number of us choose a day to wear head coverings and then report back what we encounter?

I have long wanted to wear one but have been fearful of … well … I guess, looks. I have no reason to be fearful, but it just is back there in my head saying, "Nahhhh, better not, THEY might talk." Who is they? I have no clue. So why don’t we try it together and see what happens?

Some heard scarf tying instructions (with great pics):

Dutch Crown
The Butterfly
Rapunzel
The Bun
Snood Band
Jerusalem Twist
Glitter Glamour
The Crown
The Ponytail
The Classic Tie
The Braid
The Ribbon
Click to expand...

I will if you will (seriously). 😉
 
Forest-Pine said:
Well, why don’t a number of us choose a day to wear head coverings and then report back what we encounter?
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I like this idea, but I hope we don’t get into the notion that we’re doing this just to find out how others react to us. Let’s remember the reason cited in this thread as to why it would be favorable to wear a veil, and keep it in the spirit for which it was intended.

With that said, let me know when and sign me up! 👍
 
Forest-Pine said:
Well, why don’t a number of us choose a day to wear head coverings and then report back what we encounter?

I have long wanted to wear one but have been fearful of … well … I guess, looks. I have no reason to be fearful, but it just is back there in my head saying, "Nahhhh, better not, THEY might talk." Who is they? I have no clue. So why don’t we try it together and see what happens?

Some heard scarf tying instructions (with great pics):

Dutch Crown
The Butterfly
Rapunzel
The Bun
Snood Band
Jerusalem Twist
Glitter Glamour
The Crown
The Ponytail
The Classic Tie
The Braid
The Ribbon
Click to expand...

When you put it like this, who exactly am I fearful of? Why am I scared of standing out?? If its something that I’m drawn to do then why not do it? Its not as if I’m being drawn to dress like a hooker and go to Mass (although I’ve recently seen some teenagers who have no problem with it).

I’ll do if you’ll do it, set a day and I’ll report back here. 🙂

Edited to add: NO BACKING OUT!!! 😉
 
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robertaf:
The fact is, you have never seen a picture of Mary.
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Our Lady of Guadalupe
 
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Tonks40:
I like this idea, but I hope we don’t get into the notion that we’re doing this just to find out how others react to us. Let’s remember the reason cited in this thread as to why it would be favorable to wear a veil, and keep it in the spirit for which it was intended.

With that said, let me know when and sign me up! 👍
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I think it would be heartening to know in my fear that there were others out there who were going through the same emotions as me on that same day; to have support here to do what I would like to do. I also would know that whatever happened (good or bad), I could then share my experience with others. I find comfort in that thought.

This Sunday is Sept 25, 2005.
Next Sunday is October 2, 2005.

Considering some people might not have a haed covering they would want to wear, why don’t we go with next Sunday, the 2nd? I’ll send out a reminder PM to anyone who responds here affirmatively or by PM (if you would like).
 
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Forest-Pine:
  1. I would like to wear a veil as a sign of humility before the Lord, present in the church as Father (omnipresent), Son (Eucharist), and Holy Spirit (indwelling within each of us and within the church body as a whole).
But why do you feel the need to show a sign of humility? It reminds me of the pharisees who would wear the sackcloth and ashes over their faces to show they were fasting - something Jesus criticized them for doing. God knows our hearts when we enter His house. Outward signs of our worthiness or lack thereof are for the benefit of those looking upon us, not for God.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because I find myself being vain, wondering if my hair is messed up, etc. and then chastising myself for thinking about such things in church.
Then work on not being so vain. If vanity is your weakness wouldn’t you then worry about whether your veil was on straight enough, whether it was appropriate in size and design, whether it covered just the right amount of surface?
  1. I would like to wear a veil so that I do not feel like I am in competition with other women (again, referring to #6) and will have a reminder for MYSELF what I am there to do.
Boy, I’d think a veil would definitely put you in competition with the other women…wouldn’t a hand woven bracelet do the trick or wearing a rosary bracelet that you’d actually SEE as you say the various prayers during the mass (as opposed to something on your head you can easily forget is there if you get distracted.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because I have great respect for my Moslem and Jewish friends who place such importance on respect of sexuality and the female body, evidenced through their clothing and head coverings.
It is a part of their custom, not ours. Perhaps there are other customs of those faiths which also interest you and perhaps that might be a bit dangerous to go down that path? Catholics place as much importance on the female body and her sexuality as the other religions, again, the headress is an outward sign for non-participants in that faith to notice. What’s in your heart is what matters most to Our Lord, not what other people think you believe (remember, wearing a veil or a headdress doesn’t necessarily mean the woman herself is virtuous and fully embraces her sexuality…it’s a sign so that others believe she is.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because my long hair is often commented on and it makes me uncomfortable to know others were admiring my hair while in church.
God blessed you with beautiful hair. If it bothers you that much, wear it short, many saints did so. But when God blesses you with beauty you are not supposed to distort it. Be humble, say thank you for the compliment and say a little prayer to God. Surely He would not want you to hide such a lovely gift.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because I feel a genuine tug in my heart to do so.
I’d still ask what that tug is really about, as indicated in my previous observations.
  1. I would like to wear a veil as part of setting a good example for my daughter in how she should view herself, her body, and her relationship with the Lord.
You can’t set a good example without a veil? How she views herself, her body and her relationship is in the teachings, not the symbols. She houses the Lord in her body. There is no real sign for that, except perhaps wearing a crucifix, but even that, we’re taught, is meant to be worn close to the heart and not outside our clothing. Same with the scapular, you’re not supposed to wear it for all to see, in fact we’re taught to keep it hidden.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because it has a strong tradition of thousands of years of faithful women wearing it, and while the last 40 years in America have been a little different, I also have always been a bit of an old soul.
Now, that I can relate with. But the other generations did so because it was what they were taught. The beauty of Vatican II is that our generation got to know the reasons BEHIND the veil, whereas pre-vatican II it was simply a sign of humility and modesty. Our generation lost the veil but gained the Theology of the Body and Humanae Vitae.

(I would also consider a hat in its place if I weren’t fearful that people behind me would complain about not being able to see.)

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the matter. It does help me to understand a bit better.
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vicia3:
I am sorry, I do not believe that any of my tones were attacking to you, but I have to disagree withyou here. I have seen many pictures of Mary. A lot of them are painted by people who have seen Mary. Her appearence changes to whomever she appears to and yet she is always wearing a veil. I do not understand why you are so bitter about this. I did not grow up with pictures of Mary. I did not grow up Catholic. I have had the special Grace to delve into my religion from a convert view. Why does it matter so much to you that she did not wear lace. The only reason I wear lace is because that is all I could afford. I don’t understand why this offends you either.

We started as Jew, our church is based on tradition. Yes, Paul’s teachings were 100% Christian. All of them were, otherwise it would not be divinly inspired. Yes, I do keep quiet in the church and no, I will never be a priest or consider that I could ever be one. I am human and I do try to be fully submissive to my husband. How about you? Do you fight all of the churches teachings or do you just pick and choose?
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Ok, lets just back up and start again.
The first thing I will say is that I am not bitter.Not in the least.
I happen to be an older woman, a convert like you who entered the Church when women were required to cover their head. It had nothing to do with veils, nothing. Most women wore hats until the movies made lace mantillas popular. Yes, that is true.
I didn’t say you were attacking me or picking on me in any way.
What I responded to was the accusation that women who do not wear veils “scorn” those who do, “fear” those who do or “envy” those who do. That, I believe is silly and to generalize like that is wrong and should be taken to task.

As far as pictures of the Blessed Mother, I think you are wrong. Who painted pictures of her who saw here, either in person or in a vision? I have been very interested in Church History and being an Art major in school, have also been very interested in Religious Art and Art history.
Mary may have appeared to folks in private revelation but other than the image of Our Lady of Guadelupe, I know of no other pictures. If I am wrong, please tell me.

Now,as far as Paul is concerned, he was raised and educated a Jew. So was the other Apostles. They were still worshiping in the Synagogue after the death and resurection of our Lord. They worshiped as Jews on the Sabbath and broke bread in homes on the Lords day. Many of Pauls beliefs come right out of his Jewish. He not only said women should cover their heads but he said they should not cut their hair. There were many teachings out of his epistles regarding the conduct of women.
He was born into very strict observance of the Law and it showed.
I only brought up the submissivness because it fell right in line with his teachings on head covering and cutting the hair. He also taught women were to remain quiet and heaven forbid, be taught by the older women. Being a woman who has spent the last almost 40 years teaching religion and pushing 70 years old harder than I like to, I can tell you I have taught a lot of younger women and still do.
Now, I do not pretend to adhere to the things I mentioned Paul taught in this regard.
I also do not care to put myself back into the sort of stuff I saw when it was required to cover the head in church. I saw too many women pinning wrinkled hankies (often with lipstick stains), kleenex’s, Lace caps and veils straight out of the purse where they were allowed to set wrinkles from the previous Sunday. Little items used in case of emergency when they made un-planned visits to church. You have no idea how many of these I saw standing in lines before confessionals and you also have no idea the number of Priests who commented on these headcoverings and worse.
Fortunately, it is not a rule anymore and maybe the women who choose to veil their head will not fall into these bad habits. I hope that is true.
Please though, don’t act as if you (please don’t take that personally, I mean anyone who chooses to cover their head) are holier than those who leave their heads bare. These little acts do not make you holy. It is what is in your heart that does that.

I tend not to take accusations very well, just too Irish I suppose.

I do apologize if I have offended you, as I have said, it was not intended.
 
Nan S – Post #28

Well, faced with the awful prospect of missing the first part of mass to search for the veil, the resourceful mom digs into her purse for SOMETHING to put on her daughter’s head …
………fond memories recalled from the past too……….almost invariably late for Mass because someone could not find her hat or scarfe!

Robertaf #36

You might read how we are accused of fear and envy. This is what I think is silly.
I don’t care one bit of someone wants to wear a veil or anything else.
This post was started by someone who accused other women of scorning them for being veiled.
Be fair. I do not hate anyone but I do dislike some of the accusations that go on in some of these threads.
Human beings of which I be one do have a t endancy to interpret others motivations…and in a derogatory way often if placed in a position of ‘defending’ oneself, someone we do not like etc. Not a positive habit to court at all…often its hard to get at our own motivations let alone anothers.
Doesn’t worry me at all either what people wear to Mass or how they may choose to express their devotion. And I don’t like the tone of some posts either………especially name calling.
Robertaf #33
Mary was probably not light skinned and light haired as the pictures show. She was probably dark skinned and look much like the Arabs we see today.
Mary was probably not tall and slim as pictures show. She was probably broad and very muscular. Women walked miles, carried heavy heavy jugs of water daily on their heads and shoulders. She was probably rather hairy and had deep calouses on her hands.
You need to get away from the paintings you grew up with.
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Well put………….and Jesus would not have a western appearance either in reality!..doubtless ‘holy pictures’ and works of art with the sacred as subject did take a lot of us in as it were and they did have value and I think still do to some degree……appeal to me at times anyway, despite any awareness that reality would not be as depicted……….
JCPhoenix #35
I just don’t understand the vitriol expressed by people who are otherwise charitable on these forums.
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I agree that at times quite nasty Posts really make me flinch and feel dreadfully sorry for the person on the receiving end!
ForestPine #39

Well, why don’t a number of us choose a day to wear head coverings and then report back what we encounter?
Having more or less just ‘won’ the approval again of my parish after venturing somewhat into the controversial and knowing how very alone and lost I felt in the face of Parish disapproval and being sent to Coventry…….I don’t think I will be choosing to venture into covering my head and risk………as cowardly as such is!

Barb
 
Oh, and might I add here…reading in the other thread on veils, that wearing a veil to Eucharistic Adoration is something I could relate to…now, there, in His Presence, one-on-one, yeah, I’d find it appropriate to cover my head, but not during Mass…though I’ve never considered before covering my head at Adoration.

I guess I feel if I were to come to Jesus covered up, He’d remove the veil from my head, place his hand upon my chin and tilt my face toward His so that He could look into my eyes. I surely wouldn’t feel worthy, but the love I feel from Him when I’m in His presence calls me to look into His eyes, not with my eyes cast downward in prayer. It’s a more intimate moment for me.
 
cargopilot said:
My wife just told me ‘everyone’ would laugh at her. Her best friend would laugh at her, along with all her other friends. She would be the target of jokes for some time, but only from the females.
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Could it be that she is just assuming that this would happen? She wouldn’t know until she tried it. Besides, if she feels GOD is calling her to do this, should she really give a hoot at what anyone else says? Wouldn’t she be doing it for Him?
I’ve seen some of the most uncharitable remarks I’ve ever seen, right here on this forum, on this very topic and they’ve all been from females.
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I’m not saying they’re not there but could you give me a link to these uncharitable remarks? In all of the conversations I’ve been involved in on this subject, the only thing remotely uncharitable I can recall is someone suggesting that someone is less pious if they aren’t wearing one.
As a male, I find it odd that something that to me, seems so innocuous, is so emotionally charged. Why is this such a big deal?
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I don’t have a problem with anyone else wearing a head covering but I can’t stand it when I am told (which has happened before) that I should be wearing one when I am not required to do so.
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Forest-Pine:
I think it would be heartening to know in my fear that there were others out there who were going through the same emotions as me on that same day; to have support here to do what I would like to do. I also would know that whatever happened (good or bad), I could then share my experience with others. I find comfort in that thought.

This Sunday is Sept 25, 2005.
Next Sunday is October 2, 2005.

Considering some people might not have a haed covering they would want to wear, why don’t we go with next Sunday, the 2nd? I’ll send out a reminder PM to anyone who responds here affirmatively or by PM (if you would like).
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Ok, I’m in for October 2nd. 🙂

PM me please because I might forget this thread is here…lol.
 
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YinYangMom:
To me, I wouldn’t gossip about anyone wearing a veil, but the second thing I’d notice (after the veil) would be the age of the woman. I’d expect her to be elderly and just one of those ‘old school’ Catholics. I’d know that wearing the veil is her comfort zone, to not wear it after all she knew being raised to wear one would just seem/feel ‘wrong’, and I’d respect her devoutness.

If the woman were younger, I’d have to admit my eyebrow would raise a bit, wondering why she would be wearing one when she wasn’t raised to do so.

I don’t understand this seemingly ‘in-your-face’ revolution going on in parishes taking issue with Vatican II norms. The rise in people switching parishes in favor of those offereing Tridentine masses, people insisting on kneeling to receive communion, or receiving on the tongue when one’s hands are not carrying a young child or holding onto their walkers, and the wearing of veils…all of this, to me, appears as much a protest against the NO as the rainbow sash wearing LGBT Catholics protesting against the Church for their reasons.

Now, perhaps that is not the intent behind a younger woman wearing a veil to mass, but where did she get the notion to do so if she was raised post-Vatican II, why does she choose to take on an old tradition and why would she expect doing so NOT to turn any heads or start the gossip mills running?

That’s just my observation. In all honesty, after asking those questions of myself upon seeing young woman I’d immediately ask God’s forgiveness for having uncharitable thoughts and then go about with my regular Mass focus. No, I would not gossip about the lady to anyone, I’d respect her actions, but in the back of my mind I would still be wondering what statement she was trying to make.

So perhaps you can help me understand a younger woman wearing a veil - is it because she believes it makes her more reverant than those who do not? If it’s because she believes it’s more pleasing to Our Lord, then why does she feel her belief is better than the Church’s?

Now, in Rome, at the Vatican, yes, veils are still required but that’s when the Pope is present - out of deep respect for his position, but in our local parish?? I just don’t understand.
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I agree totally with your post, you have stated my thought exactly 🙂
 
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YinYangMom:
So perhaps you can help me understand a younger woman wearing a veil - is it because she believes it makes her more reverant than those who do not? If it’s because she believes it’s more pleasing to Our Lord, then why does she feel her belief is better than the Church’s?

Now, in Rome, at the Vatican, yes, veils are still required but that’s when the Pope is present - out of deep respect for his position, but in our local parish?? I just don’t understand.
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Maybe its for personal reasons?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest-Pine
5) I would like to wear a veil as a sign of humility before the Lord, present in the church as Father (omnipresent), Son (Eucharist), and Holy Spirit (indwelling within each of us and within the church body as a whole).

But why do you feel the need to show a sign of humility? It reminds me of the pharisees who would wear the sackcloth and ashes over their faces to show they were fasting - something Jesus criticized them for doing. God knows our hearts when we enter His house. Outward signs of our worthiness or lack thereof are for the benefit of those looking upon us, not for God.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because I find myself being vain, wondering if my hair is messed up, etc. and then chastising myself for thinking about such things in church.
Then work on not being so vain. If vanity is your weakness wouldn’t you then worry about whether your veil was on straight enough, whether it was appropriate in size and design, whether it covered just the right amount of surface?
  1. I would like to wear a veil so that I do not feel like I am in competition with other women (again, referring to #6) and will have a reminder for MYSELF what I am there to do.
Boy, I’d think a veil would definitely put you in competition with the other women…wouldn’t a hand woven bracelet do the trick or wearing a rosary bracelet that you’d actually SEE as you say the various prayers during the mass (as opposed to something on your head you can easily forget is there if you get distracted.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because I have great respect for my Moslem and Jewish friends who place such importance on respect of sexuality and the female body, evidenced through their clothing and head coverings.
It is a part of their custom, not ours. Perhaps there are other customs of those faiths which also interest you and perhaps that might be a bit dangerous to go down that path? Catholics place as much importance on the female body and her sexuality as the other religions, again, the headress is an outward sign for non-participants in that faith to notice. What’s in your heart is what matters most to Our Lord, not what other people think you believe (remember, wearing a veil or a headdress doesn’t necessarily mean the woman herself is virtuous and fully embraces her sexuality…it’s a sign so that others believe she is.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because my long hair is often commented on and it makes me uncomfortable to know others were admiring my hair while in church.
God blessed you with beautiful hair. If it bothers you that much, wear it short, many saints did so. But when God blesses you with beauty you are not supposed to distort it. Be humble, say thank you for the compliment and say a little prayer to God. Surely He would not want you to hide such a lovely gift.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because I feel a genuine tug in my heart to do so.
I’d still ask what that tug is really about, as indicated in my previous observations.
  1. I would like to wear a veil as part of setting a good example for my daughter in how she should view herself, her body, and her relationship with the Lord.
You can’t set a good example without a veil? How she views herself, her body and her relationship is in the teachings, not the symbols. She houses the Lord in her body. There is no real sign for that, except perhaps wearing a crucifix, but even that, we’re taught, is meant to be worn close to the heart and not outside our clothing. Same with the scapular, you’re not supposed to wear it for all to see, in fact we’re taught to keep it hidden.
  1. I would like to wear a veil because it has a strong tradition of thousands of years of faithful women wearing it, and while the last 40 years in America have been a little different, I also have always been a bit of an old soul.
Now, that I can relate with. But the other generations did so because it was what they were taught. The beauty of Vatican II is that our generation got to know the reasons BEHIND the veil, whereas pre-vatican II it was simply a sign of humility and modesty. Our generation lost the veil but gained the Theology of the Body and Humanae Vitae.

(I would also consider a hat in its place if I weren’t fearful that people behind me would complain about not being able to see.)

Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the matter. It does help me to understand a bit better.

ying yang mom, again, you have stated, my thoughts exactly, I could not have said (wrote) it any different. thanks 😃
 
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kamz:
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on the matter. It does help me to understand a bit better.

ying yang mom, again, you have stated, my thoughts exactly, I could not have said (wrote) it any different. thanks 😃
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YingYingMom and Kamz,
Thanks for pointing out these thoughts to me. They are things I would need to reconcile through prayer if I were to wear a headcovering on a regular basis. I am not going to address each of them to you, as it would take up a whole lotta space 😃 to keep quoting the above, and as you rightly point out:
YingYangMom:
What’s in your heart is what matters most to Our Lord, not what other people think you believe
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How true! Thank you!
 
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YinYangMom:
Now, in Rome, at the Vatican, yes, veils are still required but that’s when the Pope is present - out of deep respect for his position, but in our local parish?? I just don’t understand.
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My mom was in Venice, Italy, in 1967 and had her mantilla in her handbag on Sunday morning. The doorkeeper at St. Mark’s Cathedral stopped her, so she quickly pulled it out and donned it, even though she saw other women going without.

He frowned and scowled. Taken aback, Mom paused for a moment. She then slid her mantilla down off the top of her head and over her bare shoulders like a shawl (she was wearing a sleeveless dress).

The doorkeeper smiled, nodded, and let her enter. :yup:

The same dress code is enforced today. This picture is from the entrance to St. Peter’s Basilica at the Vatican. Shorts, above-the-knee skirts, and sleeveless tops are prohibited. Veils are not required.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
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cargopilot:
Many women deeply fear wearing any form of head covering to the Holy Sacrifice.

Who can blame them? They face some of the most fearsome treatment imaginable from other females, and only females, if they cover their heads for Mass. Men either don’t care or think it’s great, but would never shun or gossip about anyone who did.

Why do women treat veiled women so badly?
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I have never experienced such mistreatment, and have never witnessed such mistreatment. This is a pretty general accusation and if it is founded only in your own experience it seems unfair to attribute it to a general attitude.

I wish that those who want to use peer pressure would spend less time worrying about veils and more time worrying about immodesty.
 
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