Women should only wear skirts?

[Monica4316]

Hi

This is sort of a controversial question… but I’m just wondering.

I was reading about modesty and came across this page about St Padre Pio:
catholicmodesty.com/PadrePio.html

I greatly respect Padre Pio and I agree with him about dressing modestly in church. I also feel lead to wear a skirt at Mass (though I don’t want to judge others who wear pants. This is just a personal decision. I also try to cover my head as I can).

But is he saying that women should ALWAYS wear skirts, or only in church? Is it alright for women to wear (modest) pants outside of Mass? for example I’m a student, and I can’t imagine dressing up for my 8:30 class… I usually just wear a sweatshirt and a pair of jeans for school.

However, some people are saying that women should *only ever *wear skirts and dresses. They always cite this verse:
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

I’ve always thought this means not be a cross dresser, or try to appear as the opposite gender. Which of course I don’t. But back then in Biblical times, didn’t men wear robes, etc, not pants?? So is this culturally defined? Today, there are women’s pants and man’s pants. They look different… is it alright for women to wear women’s pants, as long as they are not immodest? (for example, I sometimes wear jeans with a long sweater/shirt or a short dress, so the clothing is not tight looking. And I don’t dress in a revealing way).

Please share your thoughts
especially about St Padre Pio… I’m interested now… was he talking only about Church? (I agree with dressing very respectfully/modestly in Church, though sometimes I have trouble finding the right clothing so I need to go shopping lol)

I tend to think that he was just talking about Church, because of the quote:

The Church is the house of God. It is forbidden for men to enter with bare arms or in shorts. It is forbidden for women to enter in trousers, without a veil on their head, in short clothing, low necklines, sleeveless or immodest dresses."

clearly men can wear shorts outside of the Mass, and women dont’ have to ALWAYS wear the veil… so maybe it’s the same with trousers? However, of course immodest clothing should not be ever worn.

thanks!!

 

[Shin]

St. Padre Pio would not forgive those who came to his confessional in immodest clothes if they only changed their clothing for coming into church to see him.

The issues with clothing are many fold…

In emergencies anyone can wear anything, but standards are not broken or determined emergencies and extraordinary occasions.

Clothing can be masculine or feminine, and more or less so. If a man wears feminine clothing, it is problem, and vice versa. If it is slightly so, in some cases it might not be a problem for one man, who is very masculine otherwise, and yet another who has feminine features, it could be a problem.

Some men for example, if they wear long hair can be mistaken for women from the wrong angle, others, one would not do so. Some women are bodily unattractive and whatever they wear are highly unlikely to provoke anyone, others, have to take especial care more greatly than the norm. Any good man knows he has to be manly and control his eyes as best he can. And any good Christian woman know she should dress modestly and not be a stumbling block for the natural weaknesses of men.

Also, people who are especially unlikely to cause direct problems by dressing a certain way, should not therefor dress in a way that sets a scandalous example for those who have to wear something more modest and restrained.

So if you are an ugly old woman, you still shouldn’t be walking around in your undies or a swimsuit, because it’s a bad example for those who can’t. And if you are a macho man, you still must not go too far with the bling, the accessories, the pink, etc.

Colleen Hammond, in her book talks about how, in a scientific study, when women wore pants, men’s eyes were habitually drawn towards the crotch of the pants. It was a matter of… geometry… the eyes follow a certain line. She said if only women knew what certain clothing styles cause in men’s minds they would not wear them.

Pants do reveal more than skirts of the legs and torso. They are also more easily made especially more immodest in certain postures.

So, depending, they can be immodest because they are more provocative, that is the first problem. Secondly, they can be immodest because of the gender crossing nature of it, wearing pants is, even when they are made especially for women, more masculine than a skirt. And right now we can see that homosexuality and gender role flipping is spread throughout the society. Why is this occurring? In some cases it is clear some things are factors, in others it is hard to say how much, but it is quite certain that widespread wearing of pants has coincided with this and is a factor to some degree.

And the very people who are in this hot water are going to be able to judge it less clearly and easily because they are affected by the blurring themselves in ways they do not comprehend.

There are ‘the many’ and there are ‘the few’. Modesty is a spiritual beauty that goes beyond the standard of the world and stays away from borderlines even, but goes further, to make certain to take the extra care that in matters where there is doubt, one does not even think of taking the risk, but gladly takes the steps necessary to humbly walk with God in all ways.

“Where, Christ is, there modesty is found.”

St. Gregory

‘By the virtue of modesty the devout person governs all his exterior acts. With good reason, then, does St. Paul recommend this virtue to all and declare how necessary it is and as if this were not enough he considers that this virtue should be obvious to all.’

St. Padre Pio

 

[Monica4316]

St. Padre Pio would not forgive those who came to his confessional in immodest clothes if they only changed their clothing for coming into church to see him.

well this means that we shouldn’t ever dress immodestly… which I agree with… and maybe this refers to a short dress or something revealing with a low neckline…

but are pants always immodest? that is what I’m wondering if a woman came to church in pants, it seems that St Padre Pio would object to this because it’s not right for church, not necessarily because it’s immodest in itself? but I dont know

The issues with clothing are many fold…

In emergencies anyone can wear anything, but standards are not broken or determined emergencies and extraordinary occasions.

Clothing can be masculine or feminine, and more or less so. If a man wears feminine clothing, it is problem, and vice versa. If it is slightly so, in some cases it might not be a problem for one man, who is very masculine otherwise, and yet another who has feminine features, it could be a problem.

Some men for example, if they wear long hair can be mistaken for women from the wrong angle, others, one would not do so. Some women are bodily unattractive and whatever they wear are highly unlikely to provoke anyone, others, have to take especial care more greatly than the norm. Any good man knows he has to be manly and control his eyes as best he can. And any good Christian woman know she should dress modestly and not be a stumbling block for the natural weaknesses of men.

Also, people who are especially unlikely to cause direct problems by dressing a certain way, should not therefor dress in a way that sets a scandalous example for those who have to wear something more modest and restrained.

So if you are an ugly old woman, you still shouldn’t be walking around in your undies or a swimsuit, because it’s a bad example for those who can’t. And if you are a macho man, you still must not go too far with the bling, the accessories, the pink, etc.

Colleen Hammond, in her book talks about how, in a scientific study, when women wore pants, men’s eyes were habitually drawn towards the crotch of the pants. It was a matter of… geometry… the eyes follow a certain line. She said if only women knew what certain clothing styles cause in men’s minds they would not wear them.

Pants do reveal more than skirts of the legs and torso. They are also more easily made especially more immodest in certain postures.

So, depending, they can be immodest because they are more provocative, that is the first problem. Secondly, they can be immodest because of the gender crossing nature of it, wearing pants is, even when they are made especially for women, more masculine than a skirt. And right now we can see that homosexuality and gender role flipping is spread throughout the society. Why is this occurring? In some cases it is clear some things are factors, in others it is hard to say how much, but it is quite certain that widespread wearing of pants has coincided with this and is a factor to some degree.

And the very people who are in this hot water are going to be able to judge it less clearly and easily because they are affected by the blurring themselves in ways they do not comprehend.

There are ‘the many’ and there are ‘the few’. Modesty is a spiritual beauty that goes beyond the standard of the world and stays away from borderlines even, but goes further, to make certain to take the extra care that in matters where there is doubt, one does not even think of taking the risk, but gladly takes the steps necessary to walk with God in all ways.

“Where, Christ is, there modesty is found.”

St. Gregory

‘By the virtue of modesty the devout person governs all his exterior acts. With good reason, then, does St. Paul recommend this virtue to all and declare how necessary it is and as if this were not enough he considers that this virtue should be obvious to all.’

St. Padre Pio

thanks for your reply… to be honest I’m sort of struggling with this. in another thread, I asked, what if I wear jeans but with a long sweater/tunic overtop. Its really hard to find longer dresses for my age group, and wearing them with pants is perhaps more modest than with tights. I dont know if this still counts as “masculine” dress… cause it doesn’t look like anything a man would wear. I agree that many pants can be immodest, but what if worn with the right top?

the reason I’m asking all this is because it’s really hard for me to find clothing. Skirts are generally more expensive, at least where I live, and I can only afford to buy one…

also I can’t wear a floor length skirt or anything like that, lol, so sometimes pants do end up being more modest for me… for example, if I wear them like I described above

I’m not sure what to think I always thought it’s alright to wear pants as long as it looks modest. But is there something inherently wrong with women wearing them, because men also do? even if they don’t look like men’s pants?

 

[Poetess_Kera]

As long as you’re covered up and look like a woman, there’s nothing wrong with pants. It’s all about your intentions. If you try really hard to look modest, great. If you try to seduce someone with your clothing, there’s a problem. As long as your hearts in the right place and you’re trying to be modest, I fail to see the problem with some good women’s pants.

In my case, I don’t really have a choice since where I live, I’m freezing in a heavy coat.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Colleen Hammond, in her book talks about how, in a scientific study, when women wore pants, men’s eyes were habitually drawn towards the crotch of the pants.

Does anybody have a citation for such a study? From what I read, Colleen Hammond alludes to such a study (advertising not scientific) but I am rather skeptical on this idea and I would like to see a little proof.

 

[Shin]

thanks for your reply… to be honest I’m sort of struggling with this. in another thread, I asked, what if I wear jeans but with a long sweater/tunic overtop. Its really hard to find longer dresses for my age group, and wearing them with pants is perhaps more modest than with tights. I dont know if this still counts as “masculine” dress… cause it doesn’t look like anything a man would wear. I agree that many pants can be immodest, but what if worn with the right top?

I’m not sure what to think

Well, I don’t know what to say about the idea of a pants/skirt combo, it might it might not. I just don’t know.

I know some of the factors that would have to be considered in that determination – after all, there is the good example part, so that wearing pants and perhaps a long coat, might not be directly immodest, but people would know you wear wearing the pants and see that as an example in favor of wearing them all times in all circumstances.

Coats normally come off after all.

OTOH, certain kinds of “pants” under a skirt might well be modest, if done carefully, perhaps very little of them revealed if at all, or if seen obviously not outerwear pants.

With a skirt, it always does have to be long enough to sit down in, move around in, in a normal way, and remain modest.

I think you can find good skirts if you give it a try, there’s been more than one traditional Catholic lady on here with blogs and whatnot, in quite modern looking long skirts that would not attract any ‘out of fashion’ notice, and yet are quite modest.

 

[Monica4316]

As long as you’re covered up and look like a woman, there’s nothing wrong with pants.

In my case, I don’t really have a choice since where I live, I’m freezing in a heavy coat.

Canada eh?

lol!

I’m a Canadian too.

Does anybody have a citation for such a study? From what I read, Colleen Hammond alludes to such a study (advertising not scientific) but I am rather skeptical on this idea and I would like to see a little proof.

I think maybe it depends on the type of pants too…

Well, I don’t know what to say about the idea of a pants/skirt combo, it might it might not. I just don’t know.

I mean something more or less like:
shopcrazy.com.ph/wp-content/images/2007/08/wrap-dress-07.jpg

I know some of the factors that would have to be considered in that determination – after all, there is the good example part, so that wearing pants and perhaps a long coat, might not be directly immodest, but people would know you wear wearing the pants and see that as an example in favor of wearing them all times in all circumstances.

Coats normally come off after all.

OTOH, certain kinds of “pants” under a skirt might well be modest, if done carefully, perhaps very little of them revealed if at all, or if seen obviously not outerwear pants.

With a skirt, it always does have to be long enough to sit down in, move around in, in a normal way, and remain modest.

I think you can find good skirts if you give it a try, there’s been more than one traditional Catholic lady on here with blogs and whatnot, in quite modern looking long skirts that would not attract any ‘out of fashion’ notice, and yet are quite modest.

thanks for the info

 

[sarahraegraham]

I just posted on a similar topic… Here are my thoughts (which also involve wearing a mantilla, which was part of that discussion):

I don’t think many people would insist that it’s necessary to wear a skirt (with or without a mantilla.) I would not. We are certainly not legalists! But, I do think it is more appropriate, for a couple reasons. One is that a mantilla is feminie looking, so for appearances sake I think it just looks better. Secondly, a mantilla symbolizes among other things submission, to Christ and a husband if a lady is married. God provided a headship in marriage, and a woman wearing a skirt or dress conveys this reality of our faith most perfectly *in our present culture *because only women wear skirts/dresses in our culture.

Those are the two most basic reasons I personally believe that a skirt/dress with a mantilla is much more appropriate than pants of any type. Again, they are just my opinions, which are founded upon my learning of the faith. One of the great things about being Catholic is that we have so many things that act as symbols for a deeper reality. Femininity and masculinity are so important to our society that I believe we should all act in as many ways as we can to help others discover/rediscover those truths. Wearing distinctly feminine attire (both inside and outside of Mass) is one great way to do this, and it is one that I have chosen for myself.

 

[Poetess_Kera]

What I do to look modest and feminine is wear a long blouse or a long-sleeved dress shirt with dark dress pants and either high heels or boots. I’m hopefully getting a veil for Christmas that will reach slightly past my shoulders, probably.

 

[MariaTS]

Here’s what I believe: If a woman is allowed to wear clothing for men than a man is allowed to wear clothing for women. However, I do believe that women should only wear skirts and they should cover their heads at all times. I, as a woman, have taken to doing this. I believe that this is what god finds acceptable for women that he has created.

 

[Poetess_Kera]

Here’s what I believe: If a woman is allowed to wear clothing for men than a man is allowed to wear clothing for women.

Fair enough, but pants are specially made for both sexes. Women’s jeans are fine for women, just as men’s jeans are fine for men.

 

[Monica4316]

headcovering…that’s another thing…

it says in the Bible that women should cover their head during prayer “because of the Angels”. So I try to wear a headcovering for Mass, though - since no one does it at my parish, it’s just a large fabric headband… for now… but when I visit the Latin Mass parish, I want to wear a mantilla.

but why do some women always wear headcoverings? My impression this was out of respect for the Blessed Sacrament and the Angels… so why outside of church too? I’m not challenging this… just interested I think it’s a personal choice to do this or not…

God bless

 

[juliamajor]

It depends on the time, the place the culture, the weather.These determine what is modest and immodest. Each part of the world has a cultural norm which history and geography have a hand in creating.Nothing , when you come to cultural imperatives, is universal.

 

[Timothysis]

A priest once wrote that if he treated his parishioners the way Padre Pio treated some of his, then he would have no end of trouble with the bishop.

The point is that, even if Padre Pio didn’t approve, it doesn’t mean that his point of view is the standard for everyone. There is certainly nothing wrong with a woman wearing pants and the Church has never proclaimed as much.

 

[Lainey63]

Hi

This is sort of a controversial question… but I’m just wondering.

I was reading about modesty and came across this page about St Padre Pio:
catholicmodesty.com/PadrePio.html

I greatly respect Padre Pio and I agree with him about dressing modestly in church. I also feel lead to wear a skirt at Mass (though I don’t want to judge others who wear pants. This is just a personal decision. I also try to cover my head as I can).

But is he saying that women should ALWAYS wear skirts, or only in church? Is it alright for women to wear (modest) pants outside of Mass? for example I’m a student, and I can’t imagine dressing up for my 8:30 class… I usually just wear a sweatshirt and a pair of jeans for school.

However, some people are saying that women should *only ever *wear skirts and dresses. They always cite this verse:
A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor a man wear women’s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.

I’ve always thought this means not be a cross dresser, or try to appear as the opposite gender. Which of course I don’t. But back then in Biblical times, didn’t men wear robes, etc, not pants?? So is this culturally defined? Today, there are women’s pants and man’s pants. They look different… is it alright for women to wear women’s pants, as long as they are not immodest? (for example, I sometimes wear jeans with a long sweater/shirt or a short dress, so the clothing is not tight looking. And I don’t dress in a revealing way).

Please share your thoughts
especially about St Padre Pio… I’m interested now… was he talking only about Church? (I agree with dressing very respectfully/modestly in Church, though sometimes I have trouble finding the right clothing so I need to go shopping lol)

I tend to think that he was just talking about Church, because of the quote:

clearly men can wear shorts outside of the Mass, and women dont’ have to ALWAYS wear the veil… so maybe it’s the same with trousers? However, of course immodest clothing should not be ever worn.

thanks!!

You also have to remember at that time when Padre Pio was alive the church & society was beginning to change…during the 60s and before yes a woman was to wear a dress to church, but remember, for the most part women mostly wore dresses…to wear pants or shorts was only occasionally. I think the more rural & rugid the environment though…the more women wore pants most of the time because of the labor involved etc…

The rule for modest dress for females attending mass at that time was the neckline could be no lower than 2 or 3 fingers from the base of the neck or the collarbone, no short sleeves had to be 3 quarter length and the shortest the skirt could be I think was 3 inches below the knee, also headcoverings and I believe gloves also had to be worn. Also during the 60s as you know the mini skirt and hot pants came into fashion-usually college kids. I grew up in New England which was pretty conservative and I don’t remember as a young child seeing too many women dressed in mini skirts & hot pants except on tv…until the 70s.

But those rules about the dress code for Mass is what my grandmother and mother told me some years ago.

 

[Monica4316]

I guess what I’m wondering is, if a woman wears pants or a skirt that’s around knee length, is that actually tempting anyone to sinful thoughts? or does this only happen if the pants/skirt are immodest and really revealing/tight fitting etc?

I don’t know cause I’m a girl I never thought it would, but some are saying otherwise!

I wouldnt want to cause any brother in Christ to stumble.

Also, the whole thing about wearing gender appropriate clothing is confusing to me… because some are saying this is culturally defined, and others are saying it’s not, and that only skirts are truly feminine

 

[gr1]

as you know Padre Pio had a profound reverence for the mass.If when you attend mass you tried to look as good as you could Im sure you would meet his approval.He wanted people to have the proper appreciation of where they were.Sometimes this will include wearing jeans and whatnot as long as we did the best we could.

 

[sarahraegraham]

Also, the whole thing about wearing gender appropriate clothing is confusing to me… because some are saying this is culturally defined, and others are saying it’s not, and that only skirts are truly feminine

Well, perhaps it’s both… I think back to the Middle East in Jesus’ time. Women and men dressed similarly, but there were distinct differences. I think I would argue the point that that’s the point: there are/should be distinct differences. And yes, men and women’s slacks are shaped/styled a little differently, but a man in our culture would never wear a skirt/dress, do see what I mean? So our culture defines it pants vs. skirts pretty clearly. That’s why I personally choose skirts and dresses 99% of the time, inside and outside of Mass. If the difference was only headcovering, I would wear a headcovering all the time. I think that’s why a lot of women nowadays are rediscovering the practice: it helps them to personally regain some of what is being/has already been lost in our day.

 

[juliamajor]

I guess what I’m wondering is, if a woman wears pants or a skirt that’s around knee length, is that actually tempting anyone to sinful thoughts? or does this only happen if the pants/skirt are immodest and really revealing/tight fitting etc?

I don’t know cause I’m a girl I never thought it would, but some are saying otherwise!

I wouldnt want to cause any brother in Christ to stumble.

Also, the whole thing about wearing gender appropriate clothing is confusing to me… because some are saying this is culturally defined, and others are saying it’s not, and that only skirts are truly feminine

Tempting? how could you be “tempting” without your knowledge?
Why can’t guys keep their eyes to themselves-blaming somebody else for their own shortcomings is really cowardly
.As far as I know wearing a burka hasn’t stopped sinning in Islamic countries-nor has it stopped rape or prostitution.
Modesty is from the inside out- not the outside in.

 

[Monica4316]

Tempting? how could you be “tempting” without your knowledge?
Why can’t guys keep their eyes to themselves-blaming somebody else for their own shortcomings is really cowardly
.As far as I know wearing a burka hasn’t stopped sinning in Islamic countries-nor has it stopped rape or prostitution.
Modesty is from the inside out- not the outside in.

I see what you’re saying, but I think we need to be responsible too, I mean if a girl were to walk around in a mini skirt and halter top, - especially, if she came this way to Mass, - that would be immodest because some guys would look at her in a lustful way. And if they sin, yes they would be responsible, but - out of charity we should not put people in this situation. Some people can resist temptation really well, or not even be tempted, while others are weaker… .maybe an objection would be: “why should I be responsible for anyone else’s soul?” but that’s just a charitable thing, imo, cause we all affect one another… we each help each other get to heaven or to hell… even though our choices are our own.

Think of how tragic it would be if a guy saw an immodestly dressed girl walking on a street, started having lustful thoughts, and fell into impurity… and then died without repenting and went to hell for that sin. How would it be for her to one day realize this?

I’m saying this as a girl who used to dress immodestly, and now I regret it