Women.... stupid?

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

perhaps reading this might give you a glimpse of what pre-islamic arabian society was like: social life of the arabs taken from “the sealed nectar: biography of prophet muhammad”.

also, some specific points:

• women did not have he right of inheritance.

• women did not have any rights upon her husband. divorce had no limited number, no limit to the number of wives a man could marry. women were more like possessions than life partners, such that if her husband died, her husband’s oldest son would have more right to her and he would consider her an inheritnce just like the rest of his father’s wealth.

Then if this condition happened, how could Khadijah became wealthy and even choose to marry Mohammed PBUH? I will read more of your source.

a woman cannot be an imam to lead the prayer. btw, how does the fact that a woman is not allowed to leads the prayer for mixed congregational prayer set limits on her moral progress?

I mean, if a woman is very pious, she is still unable to be an Imam. Should an imam be determined by gender, or by piousness?

muslims are prohibited from forcing non-muslims to accept islam. however, if a muslim apostates from islam, then he is tried and called back to islam. if he refuses, his punishment is death by stoning - and this punishment is to be carried out by the muslim ruler.

Don’t you think it’s scary? I mean, how if I thought that Islam is a right way, then after contemplating for a long time, consider that Islam is not for me. Should I be killed just because I can believe no more?
So at least you agree that in moslem worlds, we don’t have freedom of religion, men and women.

just because you don’t agree with what is written in the article it means they lied? this article is about the issue regarding the testimonies of women in court and why the testimonies of two women equal the testimony of one man:

I read that article too. But do you think only women have physical problems? Men can get stress, vertigo, or else. So there is always some time when a man’s condition is worse than a woman. And the article contradict with this article. In this article it’s said that women with more knowledge about something have more legal favor, it’s not stated anywhere in Quran. But I might be wrong. You may quote proper text if you find explanation in Quran concerning that.

islamically a woman is allowed to reject a suitor if she is not pleased with him. if a woman has reached the age of maturity, she also has the right to propose to any man of her choosing. a man is limited to four wifes and this is a right bestowed upon them by Allah. as mentioned above, before islam, there was no limit to how many wives a man could marry. there are also conditions for marrying more than one wife, the most important one being just and fair treatment of each wife

Before Islam, Mohammed PBUH only married Khadijah, so I conclude that there were practices of monogamous in that area as well. And about the four wifes, a woman can’t marry four husbands. And If I am not mistaken, a man can divorce his wife only by saying he divorced her three times (it happened, I read it in a news about a Pakistani couple). Do you think it’s fair for women? I don’t know if a woman can divorce her husband that way.

“and those whose hostility you fear, then admonish them, and keep away from them in the beds, and hit them. so if they obey you, then do not seek any means against them.” (4:34) this verse outlines the means a husband should take against his wife who is causing marital discord. first he is to admonish her. if this fails and she persists, then he is to keep away from her bed. if this fails and she persists, then he is given the allowance to hit her.this verse is not an all out allowance for the husband to pummel his wife at the first instance of discord as some people try to make it out to be.

But the problem maker in a marriage is not always women. Do you think the verse also can apply to men who cause marital problems? Can women beat them too?
In the west, any beating (to spouse, man or woman) is an abuse and it can be reported to the police. I believe it’s better for both genders.

no, this happens in muslim countries as well. in fact, it’s easier for a woman to gain vast amounts of knowledge in muslim countries due to the fact that more muslim scholars live in muslim countries than non-muslim countries. i know of a few women scholars who have excelled in their learning further than a lot of men i know.

Dear Gonzales, may be you haven’t read what happened in Afghanistan to women when the Taliban ruled?
But it’s nice discussing with you. You are very kind and explain everything to me.

Fox

 

[cute2904]

Neithan:

I hate to be too anal, but ‘ban’ isn’t the right word. Given the nature of our Sacraments and Sacred Tradition it isn’t possible for a woman to be a priest. Would you like the long explanation or the short one?
Basically, Christ was incarnate as a man. His purpose was to sacrifice His Body. The Priest’s primary function is to ‘re-present’ this sacrifice at the Holy Mass in the Eucharist. Since we place heavy importance on the physical substances of a Sacrament, it is fitting that the priest who is ‘re-presenting’ Christ’s sacrifice has the same physical body.
The importance and reasoning behind this would lead me into the long explanation…

Although women may not be priests, they are not ‘second-class citizens’ in the Kingdom of God. Far from it. They are open to religious consecration (nuns) which is another holy ministry in the Church. Also, the most holy and important purely human being in Catholic theology is a woman: Mary, the Mother of God. She is called the ‘Living Tabernacle,’ the ‘Seat of Wisdom’ and the ‘City of God.’ She is Queen of Heaven, higher than all the Angels and Saints in Glory.

The fact that women give birth to new life more than makes up for their exclusion from the priesthood. Sometimes I think God was compensating a little here.

I highly recommend the Catholic Theology of the Body to shed further enlightenment on this subject.

Good posting Neithan!!

 

[Neithan]

r.gonzales:

just out of curiousity, what was the context of those statements then?

The Saints are specifically discussing the person of Eve, and her role in damnation. Contrast this language with that used to describe Mary. Night and day. Both are often referred to simply as ‘Woman’ in the writings of the Fathers. In no way does Catholic theology lower the dignity, or increase the guilt of women over men. In fact, Original Sin is usually linked primarily with Adam, not Eve.

 

[melbourne_guy]

Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
Tabari I:280 “Allah said, ‘It is My obligation to make Eve bleed once every month as she made this tree bleed. I must also make Eve stupid, although I created her intelligent.’ Because Allah afflicted Eve, all of the women of this world menstruate and are stupid.”
Qur’an 4:3 “If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with orphans, marry women of your choice who seem good to you, two or three or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to do justice (to so many), then only one, or (a slave) that you possess, that will be more suitable. And give the women their dower as a free gift; but if they, of their own good pleasure, remit any part of it to you, eat it with enjoyment, take it with right good cheer and absorb it (in your wealth).”

go to the prophetofdoom.net very interesting information about islams hadiths concerning women.

 

[cute2904]

QUOTE :
In the book, “You Ask and Islam Answers” (p. 94 for example), Abdul-latif Mushtahiri says,

“If admonishing and sexual desertion fail to bring forth results and the woman is of a cold and stubborn type, the Qur’an bestows on man the right to straighten her out by way of punishment and beating provided he does not break her bones nor shed blood. Many a wife belongs to this querulous type and requires this sort of punishment to bring her to her senses!”

In his book, “The Individual Guarantee In the Islamic Law” (p. 63), Ahmad Ahmad, a professor at the college of Law at the University of Qatar, denotes the following under the title of “Family Problems’ Solution”,

“If a woman is afraid that her husband may turn away from her or detest her, she will hasten to bring understanding and reconciliation. But if the husband is afraid that his wife may rebel against him, he hastens to bring mutual understanding by means of exhortation, then by abandonment of the bed, then by the scourging which deters.”

“Riyadh al-Salihim” by Imam al-Nawawi (p. 106), we find a quote by Sahih of Muslim, “Muhammad said, ‘A woman was created from a crooked rib; thus she would never be straightened by any means. If you enjoy her, you do that along with her crookedness and if you endeavor to straighten her, you will break her, and breaking her is divorcing her.”’

 

[r.gonzales]

first, to continue with your original questions…

DeExupery:

In my country, when Megawati was elected as president, many Islamists told that it was against Al Quran that a Woman leads. Please enlighten me, dear Gonzales.

Allah says, “the men are responsible over the women” and thus they are given a position of authority over their families and over society as a whole. women and men both have their roles in islamic society. men are the providers and protectors, while women are the cultivators of society. they maintain their homes and taking care of their families. they raise and teach the children.

also, as the noble companion of the prophet, aboo bakrah, narrated, “when it reached the prophet, may Allah send greetings and peace upon him, that persia made the daughter of kisraa (khosrau) their queen he said, ‘a people who put a woman in charge of their affair will never succeed.’”

DeExupery:

Is this really true that Quran states men excel women? And I remember I read somewhere that the inheritance for women are smaller.

there are various translations for the verse, as can be seen. Allah uses the word “faddala” and the emphasis placed on the daal changes the meaning of this verb to “he preferred” or “he gave preference”. so a more accurate translation of the verse is, “because Allah preferred some of them over others” Allah did not say, “because Allah preferred the men over the women,” He said, “because Allah preferred some of them over others.” keeping the verse general. so while in general, Allah has blessed men with more leadership qualities than women, it does not negate the fact that there may be women who have better leadship qualities than some men. it also does not necessitate that men have been given preference in every aspect as it is clear that Allah has given preference to women in other aspects of life.

as for inheritance, then in the same verse, Allah also says that men are responsible over women “because of what they spend from their wealth.” it is the responsibility of the men to spend from their wealth to look after and provide for their families, this responsibility does not fall on women and women are not obligated to spend from their wealth to provide for their families. so in essense, the man’s wealth is his family’s wealth, whereas a woman’s wealth belongs to her alone. and she is free to use her wealth as she wishes. this is just one of the reasons why a male inherits more than a female.

DeExupery:

Dear Gonzales, the article I read is purely nonsense to my believe. Especially when it is said that the women in Islam is treated better than women in the West. What do you think?

i think that that’s your opinion and that you’re entitled to it. that does not mean that you’re right. in fact, i’d say that you’re wrong and that when islam is implemented as it should be, wome are treated far better than women in the west… this article written by a non-muslim basically sums it up: burka vs. bikini.

 

[r.gonzales]

as for your more recent questions…

DeExupery:

Then if this condition happened, how could Khadijah became wealthy and even choose to marry Mohammed PBUH? I will read more of your source.

the conditions i mentioned are known facts of arabian history. one case that goes against the rule doesn’t change that. there are always exceptions to the rule. plus, arabian society was one based on honour and nobility and people with status were always viewed differently than those without it. khadeejah bin khuwailid came from a family of noble lineage and honourable status.

DeExupery:

I mean, if a woman is very pious, she is still unable to be an Imam. Should an imam be determined by gender, or by piousness?

firstly, in general an imam is someone who leads as the word imam means “leader”. the position of leadership is given to men, as just as Allah mentions in His book, “the men are responsible over the women…”. and as i said, in mixed congregations, a man is the one who leads the prayer. firstly, Allah obligates the woman to veil herself from men who are not related to her. Allah also commands both men and women to lower their gazes from each other and protect their chastity. what sense would it be then to put a woman in front of men to lead them in prayer, especially considering some of the postures of the prayer?

secondly, with regards to what determines who an imam for the prayer will be, it is generally determined by the amount of knowledge one has with respect to the Quran - both in terms of how much is memorised, as well as how much is actually understood and known concerning it’s explanation and implementation. if people are equal in this regard, then the person’s age is considered as the determining factor as is shown in saheeh al-bukhaaree, hadeeth #685 in which Allah’s messenger said, “if you return to your lands, teach them. instruct them that one should pray such and such prayer at such and such time, and such and such prayer at such and such time. and if the [time for] prayer is present, then let one of you make the call to prayere and let the eldest of you lead them.”

DeExupery:

Don’t you think it’s scary? I mean, how if I thought that Islam is a right way, then after contemplating for a long time, consider that Islam is not for me. Should I be killed just because I can believe no more?

of course it’s scary. such punishment makes you think twice before rejecting the truth and embracing disbelief. islam is submission to Allah’s laws and legislations, it’s not following one’s own whims and opinions. it’s obedience to what Allah has presribed and legislated.

DeExupery:

So at least you agree that in moslem worlds, we don’t have freedom of religion, men and women.

no, that is what you interpret from my words. i believe that islam is not to be forced onto anyone and that one may practice and adhere to his or her religion. a muslim on the other hand is bound by the legislations and laws of Allah. he is expected to uphold the truth and is cautioned from entertaining falsehood and misguidance. should he reject the truth after accepting it and believing in it, he is punished according to what Allah has legislated.

DeExupery:

I read that article too. But do you think only women have physical problems?

no, but the hinderances mentioned in the article are things that the majority of women routinely go through every month. men will experience certain hinderances of their faculties if the things that cause those problems are present.

as for the contradiction, how does that contradict? if a woman has more knowledge of a particular legal issue, what she says regarding it is given precedece over someone without knowledge of that issue. and this is something that is known. as Allah says in the Quran, “say: are those who know equal to those who don’t know?” (39:9)

DeExupery:

Before Islam, Mohammed PBUH only married Khadijah, so I conclude that there were practices of monogamous in that area as well.

yes, of course there were. marrying more than one wife would be something that would be decided by the man himself. this does not mean that monogamous relationships were the norm in those days. heck, it isn’t even the norm today, considering the number of men who cheat on their wives.

con’t…

 

[r.gonzales]

con’t…

DeExupery:

And about the four wifes, a woman can’t marry four husbands. And If I am not mistaken, a man can divorce his wife only by saying he divorced her three times (it happened, I read it in a news about a Pakistani couple). Do you think it’s fair for women? I don’t know if a woman can divorce her husband that way.

yes, a woman cannot marry more than one husband. in islam, as well as in arabian society, lineage is through the father. think of the confusion regarding who would be the father of who if women had more than one husband at a time.

as for divorce, saying “i divorce you” once is enough to divorce a woman. if this is done, they are encouraged to stay together during the waiting period of three menstrual cycles to give them a chance to reconcile. if they don’t reconcile and the waiting period elapses, then they are divorced. and if they choose to remarry, then he must pay the dowry again and they must write a new marriage contract. if they are divorced three times, it is forbidden for them to remarry unless she has married and divorced another man.

as for the woman’s right, if she is not happy in the marriage she can ask the husband for an annulment of the marriage. and if it is granted to her, she gives back the dowry she was given and her waiting period is one menstrual cycle instead of three and it is as if they were never married. a woman is not a captive or a slave in the marriage and if she wants out of the marriage due to valid reasons, she is free to ask that the marriage be annulled.

DeExupery:

But the problem maker in a marriage is not always women. Do you think the verse also can apply to men who cause marital problems? Can women beat them too?

the verse addresses the men. so no, those steps are not to be carried out by the wives. they do however have a means to solve issues when the problem is caused by the men. Allah says in the verse following this verse, “and if you fear disunity between them both (i.e., the husband and wife), then seek an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family if you desire reconciliation and Allah will reconcile them both.” she also has the right to seek aid of those who have authority over him, namely either his parents, or the government courts.

DeExupery:

Dear Gonzales, may be you haven’t read what happened in Afghanistan to women when the Taliban ruled? But it’s nice discussing with you. You are very kind and explain everything to me.

not everything the taalibaan did is according to islam’s teachings. the taalibaan themselves hold many believes contrary to islam’s teachings, particularly with respect to creed and methodology.

 

[r.gonzales]

melbourne_guy:

go to the prophetofdoom.net very interesting information about islams hadiths concerning women.

apparently you haven’t read the posts made up until this point, starting with the very first one…

as for that site, it’s a joke. craig winn has been exposed as someone who is completely ignorant of islam. jalal abualrub has refuted many of his claims and has debated him on live radio showing the people just how foolish craig winn is. the debate can be listened here: www.islamlife.com. if i remember correctly, there was some brief discussion about this book of his on this forum… i’m sure if you do a search you’ll find it.

 

[r.gonzales]

just thought i’d post this up because i found it fairly ironic, that here in the west - where women are supposedly honoured and revered far more than they are in islam, one of today’s up and coming actresses complains about the slew of whorey and slutty roles that keep coming her way…

sky.com/showbiz/article/0,50001-1201964,00.html

 

[JimG]

Hmmm—maybe she could get a role as Commander in Chief. Of course, a woman president is a real possibility in the U.S. Britain has had a woman Prime Minister. Is that a possibility in an Islamic society?

 

[cute2904]

sky.com/showbiz/article/0,50001-1201964,00.html

SO??

 

[Ching_PBUH]

r.gonzales:

just thought i’d post this up because i found it fairly ironic, that here in the west - where women are supposedly honoured and revered far more than they are in islam, one of today’s up and coming actresses complains about the slew of whorey and slutty roles that keep coming her way…

sky.com/showbiz/article/0,50001-1201964,00.html

Ahhhh … what makes you think kuffars can do better than the merciful Allah? Which “verse” in which book commands westerners to REVERE women ?

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

also, as the noble companion of the prophet, aboo bakrah, narrated, “when it reached the prophet, may Allah send greetings and peace upon him, that persia made the daughter of kisraa (khosrau) their queen he said, ‘a people who put a woman in charge of their affair will never succeed.’”

It’s all only a prejudice. Men and women have equal opportunity to succeed.
If you want an example, In Indonesia, there was a kingdom called Kallinga (Ko Ling or Ho Ling), and one of the most famous leader was Queen Shima. In her rule, the Kingdom was peaceful and the rule applied well.

of course it’s scary. such punishment makes you think twice before rejecting the truth and embracing disbelief. islam is submission to Allah’s laws and legislations, it’s not following one’s own whims and opinions. it’s obedience to what Allah has presribed and legislated.

So you agree an apostate should be killed?

i think that that’s your opinion and that you’re entitled to it. that does not mean that you’re right. in fact, i’d say that you’re wrong and that when islam is implemented as it should be, wome are treated far better than women in the west… this article written by a non-muslim basically sums it up: burka vs. bikini.

The problem is that in the road, women in the west can choose to wear hijjab or to wear bikini, while in Islamic country such option just doesn’t exist.
If a man lusts for a sexy woman, do you think a woman should cover herself so a man is not lustful for her (even if it’s inconvenient for her), or should there be a law to protect the woman? What do you think?

as for inheritance, then in the same verse, Allah also says that men are responsible over women “because of what they spend from their wealth.” it is the responsibility of the men to spend from their wealth to look after and provide for their families, this responsibility does not fall on women and women are not obligated to spend from their wealth to provide for their families. so in essense, the man’s wealth is his family’s wealth, whereas a woman’s wealth belongs to her alone. and she is free to use her wealth as she wishes. this is just one of the reasons why a male inherits more than a female.

There are always cases that women contribute as many as men to the family in different ways. Tending the house, washing, etc, those are chores they usually do. And in fact, if you see around, how can a woman have their wealth when she cannot work in the moslem country? So it means she will be at the mercy of her father and then her husband. If you were a woman, would you like that condition?

as for the contradiction, how does that contradict? if a woman has more knowledge of a particular legal issue, what she says regarding it is given precedece over someone without knowledge of that issue. and this is something that is known. as Allah says in the Quran, “say: are those who know equal to those who don’t know?” (39:9)

But does it mean it can contradict the verse that two women equal one man?

firstly, in general an imam is someone who leads as the word imam means “leader”. the position of leadership is given to men, as just as Allah mentions in His book, “the men are responsible over the women…”. and as i said, in mixed congregations, a man is the one who leads the prayer. firstly, Allah obligates the woman to veil herself from men who are not related to her. Allah also commands both men and women to lower their gazes from each other and protect their chastity. what sense would it be then to put a woman in front of men to lead them in prayer, especially considering some of the postures of the prayer?

So I am right to conclude that it’s gender that comes first in deciding to be imam and not piousness.

the verse addresses the men. so no, those steps are not to be carried out by the wives. they do however have a means to solve issues when the problem is caused by the men. Allah says in the verse following this verse, “and if you fear disunity between them both (i.e., the husband and wife), then seek an arbitrator from his family and an arbitrator from her family if you desire reconciliation and Allah will reconcile them both.” she also has the right to seek aid of those who have authority over him, namely either his parents, or the government courts.

So there is no equality and justice for women. In Islam, women are very dependent to men. So why you think that the west is worse in treating women?

Fox

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

just thought i’d post this up because i found it fairly ironic, that here in the west - where women are supposedly honoured and revered far more than they are in islam, one of today’s up and coming actresses complains about the slew of whorey and slutty roles that keep coming her way…

She can choose to refuse it. She can become an office worker. She has alot of choices ahead. The choices which are rare in islamic country.
In Islamic country, even for meeting a friend, a woman hasn’t a choice. Do you think this should be a treatment for women? Please don’t blind yourself, my dear friend. If you were a woman, would you love to live in that condition?

Fox

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

I read a very saddening news from Afghan…

timesonline.co.uk/article/0,2089-1869842,00.html

Fox

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

So you agree an apostate should be killed?

yes, i do. and it’s a ruling and punishment that the muslim state courts come to and carry out. it’s not a ruling that is come to by any individual. i don’t believe anyone who accepts the truth should be allowed to choose disbelief.

DeExupery:

If a man lusts for a sexy woman, do you think a woman should cover herself so a man is not lustful for her (even if it’s inconvenient for her), or should there be a law to protect the woman? What do you think?

i think you’re trying to get away from the fact that in the west, the majority of men and western society for that matter objectify women. they’re used to sell products, and their beauty and sexuality is continually exploited (which is one of the points of irony i found with the fact that jessica alba is continually getting these slutty and whorey roles to play). islam protects this beauty and sexuality making it soley the right of the women’s husband. time and time again, i’ve heard women complaining about men staring at them or making comments about their breasts or butts or whatever else. all that could be avoided if they didn’t have their sexuality on display for the whole world to see. my wife who is a former catholic who converted to islam loves the fact that she isn’t oggled at by strange men, that guys don’t approach her just because they want “some” from her. she veils herself because she wants to and because she wishes to please her Lord who has commanded that she not display her beauty and physical adornments except to those who have a right to see them.

DeExupery:

There are always cases that women contribute as many as men to the family in different ways. Tending the house, washing, etc, those are chores they usually do. And in fact, if you see around, how can a woman have their wealth when she cannot work in the moslem country? So it means she will be at the mercy of her father and then her husband. If you were a woman, would you like that condition?

there is nothing in islam that prohibits a woman from working and earning a living if it does not interfere with her primary responsibilities to her family and to her husband. as for your question, i know many women, including my wife who hope to never work a day in their lives, who want to stay home and tend to their families and to their homes. and guess what? some of these women are non-muslims.

DeExupery:

But does it mean it can contradict the verse that two women equal one man?

firstly, there is no verse in the Quran that says two women are equal to one man. the verse says, “and seek witness from two witnesses from your men and it is not two men, then a man and two women from whoever you choose from the witnesses so if one of them errs, one of them can remind the other.” the verse makes no mention of a woman’s worth compared to men.

secondly, the first article about women’s liberation in islam says that “a woman’s testimony is valid in legal disputes. in fact, where women are more familiar, their evidence is conclusive.” there is no contradiction between their statement and the verse about seeking witness from people when conducting business contracts. 1) no where in the verse is there indication that a woman’s testimony is invalid in legal disputes. 2) the verse is talking about seeking witnesses when drawing up business contracts, it doesn’t speak of the validity or invalidity of the actual testimonies. and as is known in islam, the one who knows is a proof over the one who doesn’t know, i.e., one who is more familiar with the situation is a proof over the one who isn’t.

DeExupery:

So I am right to conclude that it’s gender that comes first in deciding to be imam and not piousness.

firstly, your original question was whether or not women could be an imam. i replied that they could if the prayer congregation consisted of women and no men. if there are men in the congretation, then women are not allowed to lead the prayer. i asked how this limits a woman’s moral progress and you haven’t answered as of yet. nor have you answered what sense it would be to have a woman lead men in prayer when the imam is to be followed and both men and women - more so the men - are commanded to lower their gazes away from women they are not related to.

DeExupery:

So there is no equality and justice for women. In Islam, women are very dependent to men. So why you think that the west is worse in treating women?

how is there no equality and justice for women? btw, equal rights does not mean the same rights as men and women are different and have different needs and are capable of things the other is not.

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

She can choose to refuse it.

yes, she can refuse it. but that’s not the point now, is it? the point is that this is the way she is viewed; as a sex object, as something that men can get their jollies off of. they want her prancing around half naked - and if she was willing to do it, completely naked - just to make money off of her sexuality and her beauty. this is true degredation of women… it’s just too bad that people don’t see it that way.

 

[Booklover]

r.gonzales:

yes, i do. and it’s a ruling and punishment that the muslim state courts come to and carry out. it’s not a ruling that is come to by any individual. i don’t believe anyone who accepts the truth should be allowed to choose disbelief.

Here’s another example that “free will” does not exist in Islam!

i think you’re trying to get away from the fact that in the west, the majority of men and western society for that matter objectify women. they’re used to sell products, and their beauty and sexuality is continually exploited (which is one of the points of irony i found with the fact that jessica alba is continually getting these slutty and whorey roles to play). islam protects this beauty and sexuality making it soley the right of the women’s husband. time and time again, i’ve heard women complaining about men staring at them or making comments about their breasts or butts or whatever else. all that could be avoided if they didn’t have their sexuality on display for the whole world to see. my wife who is a former catholic who converted to islam loves the fact that she isn’t oggled at by strange men, that guys don’t approach her just because they want “some” from her. she veils herself because she wants to and because she wishes to please her Lord who has commanded that she not display her beauty and physical adornments except to those who have a right to see them.

Give me a break! If a woman dresses modestly there is no reason why any man should ogle her or approach her with indecent proposals unless he’s a sex maniac!

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

yes, i do. and it’s a ruling and punishment that the muslim state courts come to and carry out. it’s not a ruling that is come to by any individual. i don’t believe anyone who accepts the truth should be allowed to choose disbelief.

Do you think it’s human? If Christians or Hindus, or any other religions do the same (means you and your wife will face the risk to be killed for apostasy), would you like that? Every religion thinks that what they believe is TRUTH.

islam protects this beauty and sexuality making it soley the right of the women’s husband. time and time again, i’ve heard women complaining about men staring at them or making comments about their breasts or butts or whatever else.

You don’t understand my question. I ask you, if a woman risks to be harassed by men because of her dressing, is it the mistake of the woman who chooses to wear what she likes or the men for not being able to cotrol their lust.
At the same token, I heard a lot of women complaining about the repression they get from burqa, from unfair treatment in Islamic country, but too scared to say. Women in the west can go to the court if any man make a harrassment.

there is nothing in islam that prohibits a woman from working and earning a living if it does not interfere with her primary responsibilities to her family and to her husband. as for your question, i know many women, including my wife who hope to never work a day in their lives, who want to stay home and tend to their families and to their homes. and guess what? some of these women are non-muslims

Many? how many women you know to assume that? many women I know long to have proper job, have career, have a life, find someone that can grow together in equality.
What do you mean by interfering her primary responsibilities to her family and husband? What criteria? Who set it? husbands? If she has done all she can and her husband is dissatisfied, do you think it’s her fault? There are many demanding people in this world, who can’t get enough.

firstly, there is no verse in the Quran that says two women are equal to one man. the verse says, “and seek witness from two witnesses from your men and it is not two men, then a man and two women from whoever you choose from the witnesses so if one of them errs, one of them can remind the other.” the verse makes no mention of a woman’s worth compared to men.

So in conclusion, you agree that in Islamic court a woman can replace a man?

firstly, your original question was whether or not women could be an imam. i replied that they could if the prayer congregation consisted of women and no men. if there are men in the congretation, then women are not allowed to lead the prayer. i asked how this limits a woman’s moral progress and you haven’t answered as of yet. nor have you answered what sense it would be to have a woman lead men in prayer when the imam is to be followed and both men and women - more so the men - are commanded to lower their gazes away from women they are not related to.

I ask you which one should come first, piousness or gender. If in a case, like you said, a very briliant and pious woman, who knows more things about Islam and about God and Mohammed PBUH, and no man can equal her, can’t she lead the prayer for men and women?
From your statements, you say that she can’t. So I conclude that it’s gender that come first. I don’t talk about same gender prayer, because we are talking about women.
I don’t speak about her understanding or her faith, but her right before God. So I don’t answer your question because it’s not in the coverage of our discussion.

how is there no equality and justice for women? btw, equal rights does not mean the same rights as men and women are different and have different needs and are capable of things the other is not.

Equal right means the same right. How can you say equal rights don’t mean the same rights? If you say that men and women don’t have the same right, means they are unequal.

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