Women.... stupid?

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

yes, she can refuse it. but that’s not the point now, is it? the point is that this is the way she is viewed; as a sex object, as something that men can get their jollies off of. they want her prancing around half naked - and if she was willing to do it, completely naked - just to make money off of her sexuality and her beauty. this is true degredation of women… it’s just too bad that people don’t see it that way

That’s the point: a right to refuse and to choose. If the women don’t want to degrade themselves, there are always other things to do. The woman is not an object who cannot choose in the western country. If she still choose that way, whose fault?
You forget, in the west they have Pamela Anderson, etc, but they also have Oprah Winfrey, Condoleza Rice, Margaret Tatcher, etc. That’s what I call a fair treatment. Life is a matter of choice, my friend.
But in the Islamic country, a woman can’t do anything. even for going out (in Saudi) she cannot drive. She cannot go without accompany. So if she can’t find someone to accompany, she has to shut herself in her room, confined like a bird in a cage. Do you think it’s the way to treat women?
Why don’t we make votes to women concerning that?

Fox

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Its not always easy for non-muslims to understand the laws within Islam. Islamic laws are obviously not in line with modern day ideology of liberty and freedom. Religion is so much a spiritual thing nowadays as opposed to a system and way of life.

Islam however is a system that governs all aspects of life, from how to run a state, to how to conduct oneself in the washroom. Islamic laws require submission. Religious Muslims understand the wisdom behind Islamic laws, and many try their best to implement such laws even living in the west where they have the freedom to not follow them.

For example, convincing a non-muslim woman about why in Islam the scarf is required for a woman is very difficult, but if that same non-muslim woman finds the actual doctrine and beliefs of Islam to be true, her heart will easily be inclined to accept such Islamic laws like having to wear the scarf, because her heart has attained that state of submission. And Islam by definition means ‘Submission to the will of God’.

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

Do you think it’s human?

no, it’s divine law and i accept it wholeheartedly. such ruling and punishment is also found in your scriptures. even if you believe that jesus came and abolished such legislations, you can hardly call a punishment that was at one time legislated by Allah to be inhumain.

DeExupery:

If Christians or Hindus, or any other religions do the same (means you and your wife will face the risk to be killed for apostasy), would you like that? Every religion thinks that what they believe is TRUTH.

so what? what bearing does that have on whether it’s right or not? islamic law is islamic law and it was legislated by Allah. what do i care if other religions have the same punishment for apostasy. like you said, every religion thinks that what they are upon is the truth… many of you christians always sing the praises of your forefathers who died for their beliefs. why would you be afraid to die for the truth?

DeExupery:

You don’t understand my question. I ask you, if a woman risks to be harassed by men because of her dressing, is it the mistake of the woman who chooses to wear what she likes or the men for not being able to cotrol their lust.

of course she risks being sexually harrassed due to the way she dresses and it’s practically a proven fact. men are more likely to stare lustfully at a woman dressed in tight revealing clothing than they are at a woman who is fully covered and veiled.

DeExupery:

At the same token, I heard a lot of women complaining about the repression they get from burqa, from unfair treatment in Islamic country, but too scared to say.

yes, there are many muslim women around the world who are oppressed and that’s because the men around them are ignorant of their religion and what Allah and His prophet muhammad have legislated with respect to how men and women are to conduct themselves with each other.

DeExupery:

Many? how many women you know to assume that? many women I know long to have proper job, have career, have a life, find someone that can grow together in equality.

yes, many. is that so hard for you to believe? some of these women i know have also had long careers, families and “a life”. and yet, if they were able, they’d give up that career in order to stay home.

DeExupery:

What do you mean by interfering her primary responsibilities to her family and husband? What criteria? Who set it?

Allah sets them.

DeExupery:

I don’t talk about same gender prayer, because we are talking about women.
I don’t speak about her understanding or her faith, but her right before God. So I don’t answer your question because it’s not in the coverage of our discussion.

perhaps you’ve lost track of the discussion… let me refresh your memory.

you quoted this from one of the articles i linked to:

Islam, fourteen centuries ago, made women equally accountable to God in glorifying and worshipping Him – setting no limits on her moral progress.

and commented:

DeExupery:

I don’t know, but aren’t Women unable to be imam? I might be wrong so please enlighten me. Because I have many moslem friends and it seems that the women are much more pious than the men in average.

firstly, a woman can be an imam of the prayer if the congretation she leads is made up of women. you made no mention about leading men or leading women here. you asked weren’t women unable to be imams. and they are, with conditions and restrictions.

secondly, how is a woman being unable to lead men in prayer render the quote from the article to be untrue? not being able to lead men has no bearing on her status, worth or accountability before Allah. nor does it set limits on her moral progress.

DeExupery:

Equal right means the same right. How can you say equal rights don’t mean the same rights? If you say that men and women don’t have the same right, means they are unequal.

no, equal rights does not mean the exact same rights. every individual is different and has different needs. giving people equal rights is giving them specific rights that suit those differences. as i mentioned in an earlier post, Allah says in the Quran, “surely, the most noble of you with Allah is the most pious of you. surely, Allah is All-knowing, All-aware.” (49:13). both men and women have equal opportunities to achieve that goal.

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

That’s the point: a right to refuse and to choose. If the women don’t want to degrade themselves, there are always other things to do. The woman is not an object who cannot choose in the western country. If she still choose that way, whose fault?

correct, the woman is not an object. however, in western society, she is made out to be one. and this fact is undeniable. just look at most of the advertising campaigns, look at who the most popular celebrities are, the most bought magazines, the most watched tv shows… what you don’t seem to understand is that it isn’t always the woman that degrades herself by what she chooses to do. many times its the society itself by putting her in the position where such disrespect can take place.

DeExupery:

Life is a matter of choice, my friend.

exactly, life is a matter of choice. and with islam, you can either choose to submit to Allah’s laws and legislations or choose not to. everything in life has consequences… you choose whether or not you want to deal with them.

 

[DeExupery]

Let me summarize your points of view:

1. It is fine to kill APOSTATES from Islam.
2. It is the factor of the Woman’s dress that make her get harrasment.
3. Women love to stay at home.
4. Women can have superb progress in her knowledge or believe and yet she will not be able to be an Imam for the congregation consisting of women and men.
5. Equal right doesn’t mean the same right.
6. In islam, everyone can choose to submit to Allah or to face consequence (stated in the first point).
7. Woman in the west is object.

My comments:

1. You and your Allah in your description is very inhuman. Is it really the teaching of Islam? I believe it’s OK to die for what we believe, but to KILL others because they can’t believe to what we believe is very cruel and crazy.
2. There’s always two factor about harrasment, the woman and the man. Do you think a properly dressed woman or a woman in hijab never get harrassed? The only thing can be done is to make a rule to make sure that the law protects women and the men equally!! (and it is applied in the west).
3. I have given a link for you about an Afganistan poetess who was beaten to death, because she wrote how she wanted to be free and yet she couldn’t. Like a bird with broken wings. That’s my proof that not ALL woman love to stay at home. So why can’t we give the women a right to choose? But your Allah forbid it so I don’t think this prevails in Islamic Country. So isn’t it apparent that your Allah is cruel to women?
   If you think you would love to live in that kind of country, don’t you think you (and your wife) would love to move to a country applying Sharia Law instead of living in the “western” culture? Will your wife agree to that?
4. The Allah you describes is really cruel. Even if a woman knows more thing about her faith (and him), yes she may not lead a prayer to PRAISE His name. This fact shows that your Allah sees women to be lower in your religion.
5. Equal = Same, Identical. So it doesn’t make sense if you say that equal rights don’t mean the same rights. It’s totally nonsense. You should check your dictionary.
6. If you have to choose between A and B and if you choose B than you’ll die, is it a choice?
7. What is the definition of object? An object is at the mercy of the owner/the subject. In the west, women are treated as subject, can choose, refuse, agree, drive, walk, have divorce, marry, change religion, etc.
   How about in Islamic country? isn’t a woman only a veiled object to her husband? Like the poetess who is beaten to death?

I think you need to review your own moral values.

And you forget to address my question:
You said that a woman with knowledge about something is more trustable in law, so I ask, are you really sure that it means that the woman can testify in Sharia law without needing another woman? If you say yes, then I will say the article I read in your link to be correct, but if you say no, means the article is merely lying.

Fox

 

[DeExupery]

I am sure I have answered you, Gonzales. Where did it go?

 

[DeExupery]

Dear Gonzales,

I try to summarize your points and answer points by points:

1. You said it’s ok to kill the apostates and to die for our faith.
   While I agree with you that it’s ok to die for what we believe, I disagree with you about killing the apostates for several reasons:
   a) It’s inhuman.
   b) by killing him/her, you don’t give him/her any chance to repent in the future.
   c) his/her salvation is his right, and not our right to kill him/her and send him/her to hell rightaway, even if you think you hold the truth.
   d) a merciful God would not prescribe His follower to kill the unbelievers.
   e) I believe that noone who does Syiar Islam in the west ever told that once you embraced Islam you would be killed when you try to leave again. It really sounds like a cult to me. And it’s cunning, distasteful

So I wonder if you really state what is believed in Islam or only your notion?

1. Women are harrased because of their clothes.
   So yo never know any women in hijab or proper clothes who are harrassed or raped?
2. Women want to stay at home.
   I have given you a link of an Afghanistan poetess who was beaten to death by his husband. She wrote tragically about her feeling as a bird with broken wings.
   I assure you there are a lot of women who want to work. So you want to remove their rights?
3. Women, eventhough pious, cannot become an imam to men.
   So, if there is only one man who don’t really know about Islam and Allah, and there is a very knowledgable and pious woman, still the man should be the imam to lead prayer. Your conception of Allah sounds a bit sexist to me.
4. Equal doesn’t mean the same rights.
   Have you checked your dictionary? Equal means alike, the same as, etc…
5. Women are object in the west.
   Object here, I believe, means that they couldn’t choose what they want, where they will go, what they choose.
   And it’s not true. They can choose to be Pamela Anderson, but they can choose to be Margaret Tatcher or Mother Teresa. They are subject. They choose their future.
   In Islamic countries, even to go outside, a woman should be accompanied by her husband or male relatives. She can’t choose to go alone. She can’t drive (In Saudi). Do you think it’s freedom for women? Do you think women will enjoy that? Have you asked your wife if she would love to live in a sharia law country?

That’s all for now.

Fox

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

I had a quick scan over the above posts. How can any Sunni Muslim claim that according to Muhammad women are not stupid?

This is the sahih Bukhari hadith that is very clear on the matter:

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! **What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. **Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

This hadith is also related by aMuslim, Iman 132; Abu Dawud, Sunna 15; al-Tirmidsi, Iman 6; Sunan Ibn Maja, Fitan 19; Ahmad Ibn Hanbal 2:67.

All this nonsense about abrogation and authenticity does not apply to this sahih hadith. You cannot abrogate something without having something else in its place.

Looking forward to discussing this with Muslims,
Mata Moro

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301

perhaps you should try reading the entire thread… this hadeeth has been mentioned and has been discussed.

oh and btw, welcome to the forums.

 

[r.gonzales]

DeExupery:

1. You said it’s ok to kill the apostates and to die for our faith.
   While I agree with you that it’s ok to die for what we believe, I disagree with you about killing the apostates for several reasons:
   a) It’s inhuman.
   b) by killing him/her, you don’t give him/her any chance to repent in the future.
   c) his/her salvation is his right, and not our right to kill him/her and send him/her to hell rightaway, even if you think you hold the truth.
   d) a merciful God would not prescribe His follower to kill the unbelievers.
   e) I believe that noone who does Syiar Islam in the west ever told that once you embraced Islam you would be killed when you try to leave again. It really sounds like a cult to me. And it’s cunning, distasteful

firstly, a) it’s not inhuman. Allah would never legislate an inhumane law. killing the apostate is something that was also ordained and legislated to the people of the past, as is proven by the bible. and btw, there are more death penalties legislated in the bible for crimes apart from apostasy.

b) perhaps i forgot to mention this, perhaps i did and you didn’t take note of it, but when a person apostates, he is to be taken to the muslim ruler or the courts of the state he lives in. the ruler or the judge will then give the person some time to repent. he is spoken to and called back to islam. if he refuses after the specified time, he is convicted of the crime and the punishment is applied. in the case of someone who apostates while not living under an islamic government, nothing is done to him because there is no authority to deal with him.

c) salvation pertains to the life of the hearafter. and it is granted on the day of judgement. islamic belief is that after a person died, his soul waits for this day, then we are resurrected in our physical states, judged, then sent to either paradise or hell.

d) are you saying that Allah wasn’t merciful when He legislated all those death penalties in the bible, particularly for apostasy?

e) my comments for a) and d) are fitting here as well.

DeExupery:

1. Women are harrased because of their clothes.
   So yo never know any women in hijab or proper clothes who are harrassed or raped?

harrassed in the sense that they are made fun of for their clothes. raped by close family members or by people they know while in the comfort of private homes. but i’ve never heard of a woman in full/proper hijaab being sexually harrassed or raped in public.

DeExupery:

1. Women want to stay at home.
   I have given you a link of an Afghanistan poetess who was beaten to death by his husband. She wrote tragically about her feeling as a bird with broken wings.
   I assure you there are a lot of women who want to work. So you want to remove their rights?

of course there are women who want to work. as i said there are also many women i know who would prefer to stay home. perhaps you forget the fact that islamically, women have the right to work and are permitted to work so long as certain conditions are met; one of which being that the job does not interfere with their primary duties as a mother and wife.

DeExupery:

1. Women, eventhough pious, cannot become an imam to men.
   So, if there is only one man who don’t really know about Islam and Allah, and there is a very knowledgable and pious woman, still the man should be the imam to lead prayer. Your conception of Allah sounds a bit sexist to me.

perhaps you should look to your own scriptures if you think that this restriction is “sexist”.

DeExupery:

In Islamic countries, even to go outside, a woman should be accompanied by her husband or male relatives. She can’t choose to go alone. She can’t drive (In Saudi). Do you think it’s freedom for women? Do you think women will enjoy that? Have you asked your wife if she would love to live in a sharia law country?

firstly, the point about having an accompanying male relative is a matter in islamic jurisprudence that has some differring in it. while some scholars are of the opinion that this is a must, regardless of situation, there are those that say this is a condition if there is fear for the safety of the women that exists. and from the evidences in islamic texts, this seems to be the correct position. this restriction also does not apply to travel within one’s own community or city.

as for saudi law, saudi law does not necessarily reflect islamic law. and in islamic law there is nothing that resticts a woman from driving.

as for your last question, then yes, i have. and to put it simply, my wife would absolutely love to live in a country where complete sharee’ah law exists and is implemented.

 

[JimG]

r.gonzales:

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeExupery
2) Women are harrased because of their clothes.
So yo never know any women in hijab or proper clothes who are harrassed or raped?

harrassed in the sense that they are made fun of for their clothes. raped by close family members or by people they know while in the comfort of private homes. but i’ve never heard of a woman in full/proper hijaab being sexually harrassed or raped in public.

“Raped in the comfort of private homes.”? Is this true?

 

[r.gonzales]

“Raped in the comfort of private homes.”? Is this true?

if these rapes do occur, then yes. more likely than not, if a muslim woman who is observing proper hijaab is raped, the perpetrator is someone close to her such as a cousin or a friend of the family; someone just outside of her immediate family - similar to most cases of rape throughout the world.

unfortunately, these things do happen to women, whether muslim or not. this is just the state of people as a whole as we see it today.

islam puts measures in place to prevent such things - such as a man and woman who are not immediately related to one another not being permitted to be alone together; such as the prohibition of free-mixing in general; such as the command from Allah for both men and women to lower their gazes from each other; such as the islamic hijaab itself; as well as the rest of the legislations islam stipulates for conduct between men and women.

being that most of the world’s muslims today are ignorant of their religion, many of these measures are not observed or adhered to.

it should be noted here that by immediate relatives i mean whoever is classified as a “mahram”. they are limited to siblings and siblings of the parents. so for a woman, that would mean: her brothers and sisters, her parents, her children, her husbands children, her parents’ siblings (cousins are not included in this category of immediate family).

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r.gonzales:

perhaps you should try reading the entire thread… this hadeeth has been mentioned and has been discussed.

oh and btw, welcome to the forums.

Thanks for the welcome. However, with respect, none of the non-Muslims here know what they’re talking about and let Muslims go scot-free with making untrue statements.

Why don’t you discuss this hadith with me? Were you the one who claimed this hadith was abrogated or was it some other Muslim?

I will make it easier for everyone interested in this topic. Here are my points:

1. This hadith proves that according to Muhammad, women are ‘deficient in intelligence’, i.e. stupid.
2. This hadith is sahih - meaning it is authentic. It talks about the Quran and thus, is likely to have a high status among sahih hadiths, because the Quran clarifies its message.
3. This hadith is not abrogated. If a Muslim claims this hadith is abrogated it is incumbent on the Muslim to provide the evidence. For something to be abrogated, there must be an abrogating substitute. It is the same with the Quran or the sunnah. Only the Sunnah (i.e. ahadith) can abrogate Sunnah. However, the Quran can abrogate the Quran (or the Sunnah as some scholars claims - however, the Shafi’i school does not believe this).

No Muslim can claim abrogation just because he is embarrassed by the message in a hadith or ayat. He has to prove abrogation. So where is the abrogating hadith?

I now await Gonzales to respond.

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

I now await Gonzales to respond.

as i suggested to you, please read the entirety of this thread.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

gonzales,
Why would I want to waste time trawling over posts by people who clearly don’t know Islam. I will take any Muslim on on this issue. It is easy to hoodwink a Catholic who doesn’t know Islam but it is another matter to take on someone who does.

Did you or did you not claim this hadith was abrogated? Or was it another Muslim. If it is another Muslim I want that other Muslim to come here to defend his statement.

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

gonzales,
Why would I want to waste time trawling over posts by people who clearly don’t know Islam.

well, for one as i said, this hadeeth you mentioned has been mentioned in this thread.

secondly, perhaps because i’ve been involved in this thread since it began you might want to see what’s been said and what hasn’t in order to avoid repetition, which would be a waste of my time and yours.
Rodrigo Bivar:

I will take any Muslim on on this issue. It is easy to hoodwink a Catholic who doesn’t know Islam but it is another matter to take on someone who does.

pretty bold words for someone who doesn’t know that “unlettered” means “illiterate”.
Rodrigo Bivar:

Did you or did you not claim this hadith was abrogated? Or was it another Muslim. If it is another Muslim I want that other Muslim to come here to defend his statement.

you’re a new member on this board, according to your profile. i don’t know where you got this abrogated deal from, but i can tell you that i don’t recall ever making that statement regarding this hadeeth. perhaps you should go verify and find out who said such a thing before you go shooting off your “mouth” so to speak…

 

[cute2904]

Gonzales… why don’t you take Rodrigo (pbuh) challenge?..

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

r. gonzales,
I take it from your evasion you’re the Muslim who claimed that hadith was abrogated.

Why would you want me to trawl back and find out? It’s just a waste of time and merely proves to everyone how evasive you are.

Why don’t you come out and just admit you claimed this hadith was abrogated?

Is it too difficult to start a discussion with me? I don’t care about the posts of people who don’t know Islam. I am here waiting for you to discuss how this hadith was abrogated.

Over to you, r. gonzales.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Okay, let me make this clear to all the readers of this thread.

If the sahih hadith I gave above was not abrogated, then it is clear that according to Muhammad women are deficient in intelligence, i.e. stupid.

Here is the hadith again:
Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: Once Allah’s Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Apostle ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

Case proven.

Next.

 

[r.gonzales]

Rodrigo Bivar:

I take it from your evasion you’re the Muslim who claimed that hadith was abrogated.

perhaps you don’t understand english all too well, or perhaps you just don’t read carefully enough.

r.gonzales:

you’re a new member on this board, according to your profile. i don’t know where you got this abrogated deal from, but i can tell you that i don’t recall ever making that statement regarding this hadeeth. perhaps you should go verify and find out who said such a thing before you go shooting off your “mouth” so to speak…

Rodrigo Bivar:

Why would you want me to trawl back and find out? It’s just a waste of time and merely proves to everyone how evasive you are.

nothing evasive about it. as i said:

r.gonzales:

well, for one as i said, this hadeeth you mentioned has been mentioned in this thread.

secondly, perhaps because i’ve been involved in this thread since it began you might want to see what’s been said and what hasn’t in order to avoid repetition, which would be a waste of my time and yours.

Rodrigo Bivar:

Is it too difficult to start a discussion with me? I don’t care about the posts of people who don’t know Islam. I am here waiting for you to discuss how this hadith was abrogated.

no, not at all. if you haven’t noticed, we’re currently having a discussion right now…

and btw, if you’re too lazy to read the discussion that’s gone on thus far, if even to skip posts by non-muslims and read the posts by muslims, then why would i even bother replying to any of your allegations, especially when the points you bring have already been discussed???