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Yoeme
Guest
What does this mean?
It comes from the Bible. We have all heard it.
But what does it really mean?
It comes from the Bible. We have all heard it.
But what does it really mean?
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agapewolf
Guest
Being submissive means being “under the mission of”.
A man’s mission is to love his wife as Christ loved the church…
(He died for the church)
A woman’s mission is to let her husband fulfill his mission…which is to love her like Christ.
It is a beautiful verse that upholds the dignity of the woman that she is and the kind of love she is worthy of.
The man has the more difficult job here.
(Of course, both must strive to love, to die to themselves, to be loveable as well)
A man’s mission is to love his wife as Christ loved the church…
(He died for the church)
A woman’s mission is to let her husband fulfill his mission…which is to love her like Christ.
It is a beautiful verse that upholds the dignity of the woman that she is and the kind of love she is worthy of.
The man has the more difficult job here.
(Of course, both must strive to love, to die to themselves, to be loveable as well)
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
It’s easier to explain what it does not mean. It is not the husband’s “My way or the highway” boss at all costs.
For Catholics, mutual submission is the key.
Instead of yanking it out of context, it needs to be read in its entirity:
usccb.org/nab/bible/ephesians/ephesians5.htm
For Catholics, mutual submission is the key.
Instead of yanking it out of context, it needs to be read in its entirity:
usccb.org/nab/bible/ephesians/ephesians5.htm
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yessisan
Guest
If you have access to the book Good News About Sex and Marriage by Christopher West, you will find a wonderful explanation. It’s about mutual submission. The woman must submit (not obey) to her husband, and her husband must submit (love) to her as Jesus did to the Church.
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nobeerinheaven
Guest
Note that the USCCB is not an authoritative teaching body (no more than any random or arbitrary collection of Bishops), though their considerations do weigh in favor of your suggested interpretation. One problem is that Paul does not call for mutual submission. He calls for the women to submit to their husbands, and does not call for husbands to do any submitting at all within the marital structure. The idea seems to be that husbands and wives have different roles: Obedience would be one primary result of this submission, for the wife, which is strengthened by Paul’s further claim that a woman should treat her husband as the Church treats Christ - which most certainly does involve obedience, among other things.
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OutinChgoburbs
Guest
1.) Read my little clip at the bottom. This is not a debate. The OP asked a question, and I gave an answer. Give your own answer, but don’t tear down mine.
2.) The bishops are not the ones who made the interpretation, nor the footnotes. I believe they came from the Confraternity on Christian Doctrine. That was the fastest reference to Ephesians I could find in 30 seconds.
3.) It is meant to be read in its entirity. The first line of the section clearly states: “Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.” It then goes on to explain it. No where does it say “obedience” or “obey” in the entire paragraph.
And Yessi is correct, that Christopher West’s explanation is excellent. Perhaps you should get yourself as copy as well as the OP.
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ljprevo
Guest
What this means is the husband is the head of the household, however he should not run it as all mighty. Even making choices that are in the best interest for his wife and family, not just because it is what he wants.
It is a balance structure, plain and simple.
My wife submits to me, however I make choices that is in our best interest. At least I try to.
Im my mind, the wife is the “Root” and the man is the “Branches” They both create the leaves. If it was not for my root, I would not have my strong branches.
It is a balance structure, plain and simple.
My wife submits to me, however I make choices that is in our best interest. At least I try to.
Im my mind, the wife is the “Root” and the man is the “Branches” They both create the leaves. If it was not for my root, I would not have my strong branches.
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BlestOne
Guest
Good answer… It always amazes me how misinterpreted this verse is from our Protestant brethren. I feel like I am constantly telling people to read the entire thing, this is not a women are weak, and need to submit verse like people think it is. Men are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church (as in unto death). If every man loved his wife that way, women would have no problem submitting to their headship! It is a call for us women to have trust in our husbands, just as God asks us to trust in him ( but then, that didn’t turn out to well for us either did it?) But even more than that, it is an earthly comparison, Marriage and the kingdom of God too. In Gods Kingdom, we have to trust, love, and submit. Marriage is the closest thing we have to heaven on earth, if we follow the commandments. In a way, it is also affirming the sacramental status of marriage too… If we trust, if we love, if we pray, if we submit… we receive the graces to make marriage wonderful. If we love, if we trust, if we pray, and If we submit we will see the Kingdom of God.
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FLCathMom
Guest
What do you all make of the passage in Titus 2?
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so that they may train younger women to love their husbands and children,
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to be self-controlled, chaste, good homemakers, under the control of their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.
I agree that the goal is mutual submission in a marriage, but what if the husband is ungodly?
Code:
Similarly, older women should be reverent in their behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to drink, teaching what is good,so that they may train younger women to love their husbands and children,
5
to be self-controlled, chaste, good homemakers, under the control of their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.
I agree that the goal is mutual submission in a marriage, but what if the husband is ungodly?
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cathyt
Guest
I love this reading. We had it at our wedding. It really is rich and beautiful when you “break it open” and get beyond the first thought if it.
When we said we wanted this reading, the piest got up from our meeting and shut the door excitedly. He said, “tell me why you want this.” it was a neat exchange.
When we said we wanted this reading, the piest got up from our meeting and shut the door excitedly. He said, “tell me why you want this.” it was a neat exchange.
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jman507
Guest
Well if you follow the logic of the passage, instead of stictly the fragment, it should answer itself.
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FLCathMom
Guest
The passage in Titans 2 is:
*11 As for yourself, you must say what is consistent with sound doctrine, namely,
2that older men should be temperate, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, love, and endurance.
3 Similarly, older women should be reverent in their behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to drink, teaching what is good,
4so that they may train younger women to love their husbands and children,5to be self-controlled, chaste, good homemakers, under the control of their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.6Urge the younger men, similarly, to control themselves,7 showing yourself as a model of good deeds in every respect, with integrity in your teaching, dignity,
8and sound speech that cannot be criticized, so that the opponent will be put to shame without anything bad to say about us.9Slaves are to be under the control of their masters in all respects, giving them satisfaction, not talking back to them
10or stealing from them, but exhibiting complete good faith, so as to adorn the doctrine of God our savior in every way.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, saving all
12 and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age,
13 as we await the blessed hope, the appearance 3 of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to deliver us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good.
15Say these things. Exhort and correct with all authority. Let no one look down on you. *
I do not see any condition placed on any of these exhortations.
I often hear people putting conditions on a wife’s submission in Ephesians, where I do not see any exist. Put it in the reverse: is a man no longer obligated to love his wife if she refuses to submit to him?
*11 As for yourself, you must say what is consistent with sound doctrine, namely,
2that older men should be temperate, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith, love, and endurance.
3 Similarly, older women should be reverent in their behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to drink, teaching what is good,
4so that they may train younger women to love their husbands and children,5to be self-controlled, chaste, good homemakers, under the control of their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.6Urge the younger men, similarly, to control themselves,7 showing yourself as a model of good deeds in every respect, with integrity in your teaching, dignity,
8and sound speech that cannot be criticized, so that the opponent will be put to shame without anything bad to say about us.9Slaves are to be under the control of their masters in all respects, giving them satisfaction, not talking back to them
10or stealing from them, but exhibiting complete good faith, so as to adorn the doctrine of God our savior in every way.
11 For the grace of God has appeared, saving all
12 and training us to reject godless ways and worldly desires and to live temperately, justly, and devoutly in this age,
13 as we await the blessed hope, the appearance 3 of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to deliver us from all lawlessness and to cleanse for himself a people as his own, eager to do what is good.
15Say these things. Exhort and correct with all authority. Let no one look down on you. *
I do not see any condition placed on any of these exhortations.
I often hear people putting conditions on a wife’s submission in Ephesians, where I do not see any exist. Put it in the reverse: is a man no longer obligated to love his wife if she refuses to submit to him?
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peregrinator_it
Guest
Food for thought. I’m reading Casti Connubii (for my job!) and Pope Pius XI has this to say on husbands & wives:
26. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love [meaning marriage]there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: "Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church."
27. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the wife both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to a wife…
I don’t think he comments on the passage from Titus…
26. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love [meaning marriage]there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: "Let women be subject to their husbands, as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the Church."
27. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the wife both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to a wife…
I don’t think he comments on the passage from Titus…
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jman507
Guest
If anything, I’d say worry about running your own office well first and foremost. If another is going to tear yourself and other people you are obligated to care for down, then leave. Part of the problem with laying down conditions is that each situation is different and each contributing member of the situation’s own makeup is different. One may not have the strength of another to help guide another out of a misguided path. Also no one is going to follow spirit of these passages perfectly save for Mary and Jesus.
Those judgements will need to be made by you. The Church can help, so can the Bible, and the Holy Spirit, but the answers are not cut and dry, not even from seemingly identical situations. Take in what you can, discern, act, reflect, and so on. If you fall, get back up. If your wrong, turn from it and go on towards the Good. The best you can do is good enough. Don’t worry so much about what other people say, if it seems wrong. If the people have an office that hold more sway on consideration, then take that into heavy consideration.
If anything, if you think men are help to less restrictions, then they should also then held to more accountablilty if they abuse their position. If one thinks that a higher status is a more comfortable position, then in Christianity he will miss the idea that the master is the servant and the servant is the master. If one has not been in a postion of power, and has not had the weight of the well being of all the subordinates along with the group performing it’s role probably missed the gravity of the office that person held. Sorry I know that might be a pretty round-about why to go to answering the qustion, and may not have answered your question.
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Yoeme
Guest
May be I missed it. But some one asked, “what if the husband is ungodly.”
So what is the husband is not following God, and the road he is leading his family on is wrong. Does she follow him???
So what is the husband is not following God, and the road he is leading his family on is wrong. Does she follow him???
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SilenceISgolden
Guest
Not if he is causing you to sin. There is a difference between not liking where it is going and where it is going is morally wrong.
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Yoeme
Guest
That is the implication. Knowing that where it is going is not where God wants you to be…
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ljprevo
Guest
No.
You submit to God 1st, then your husband. If what your husband does or expects is against God, then you don’t submit to that.
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joeybaggz
Guest
Most of the replies so far don’t need much addition. Just an interesting note, the last three or four times I’ve heard this read at Mass, the word subordinate has been used in place of submissive. Slightly different meaning to the two words.
My two cents.
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mschrank
Guest
Well, typically when I come home, I have my wife spoon feed me. Then, after that, we go have me-centered sex for about 2 minutes, after I finish, she pours me a bit of bourbon and packs my pipe and then gives me a foot massage and tells me how much she loves being married and how submission is a joy.
NOT.
That’s not what submitting means. It means that in any family, you have to have a leader. It’s about superiority of position, not of the person over another person. For example, a Priest might have a superior function than the layperson, but his soul is in no better state than a layperson of the same devotion.
The husband has to lead the family and love them more than himself. Everything he does has to be for the good of the family and he has to play his part of the masculine in the “cosmic dance” as C.S. Lewis puts it. Just as in the Waltz, there has to be one to lead, and another to follow, in the home one must play the masculine and another the feminine- and does anyone really like it when its the woman playing the masculine’s role?
Again, it’s about function, not essence! The woman who submits does not mean that she is less, only she trusts his lead. It also does not mean the man makes all the decisions, it means that he does have veto in some areas but love is always considered. He will only make decisions that are best for the family, and he does not use his power for his own good. He loves his wife and family as Christ loves His Church, selflessly.
NOT.
That’s not what submitting means. It means that in any family, you have to have a leader. It’s about superiority of position, not of the person over another person. For example, a Priest might have a superior function than the layperson, but his soul is in no better state than a layperson of the same devotion.
The husband has to lead the family and love them more than himself. Everything he does has to be for the good of the family and he has to play his part of the masculine in the “cosmic dance” as C.S. Lewis puts it. Just as in the Waltz, there has to be one to lead, and another to follow, in the home one must play the masculine and another the feminine- and does anyone really like it when its the woman playing the masculine’s role?
Again, it’s about function, not essence! The woman who submits does not mean that she is less, only she trusts his lead. It also does not mean the man makes all the decisions, it means that he does have veto in some areas but love is always considered. He will only make decisions that are best for the family, and he does not use his power for his own good. He loves his wife and family as Christ loves His Church, selflessly.
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