Women & the Mass 2

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I have a few questions & comments concerning some practices at my parish. I mean - there are only boys as altar servers, which is cool. They also wear what they are meant to. And in some ways this is a more traditional parish.

However, I’ve noticed that there are 2 women who are involved and it is annoying me a bit. I just wanted ask other’s opinions. One simply reads the first reading - which I guess isn’t too bad. But I mean - that was traditionally a position for men (specifically deacons right?). The second though is worse IMHO. She carries the Monstrance to the Altar, and today she went into the sactuary (? I think) to get something for an altar boy. Two “vessels” I guess. I mean - they may have contained non-consecrated hosts.

I think the latter was wrong because she is a Lay Person - no different than me…

Catholig
 
Catholig said:
I have a few questions & comments concerning some practices at my parish. I mean - there are only boys as altar servers, which is cool. They also wear what they are meant to. And in some ways this is a more traditional parish.

However, I’ve noticed that there are 2 women who are involved and it is annoying me a bit. I just wanted ask other’s opinions. One simply reads the first reading - which I guess isn’t too bad. But I mean - that was traditionally a position for men (specifically deacons right?).
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Subdeacons, or in their absence, lectors.
The second though is worse IMHO. She carries the Monstrance to the Altar, and today she went into the sactuary (? I think) to get something for an altar boy. Two “vessels” I guess. I mean - they may have contained non-consecrated hosts.
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I think the latter was wrong because she is a Lay Person - no different than me…
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Is she a sacristan? Is this before/after/during Mass?
 
Ummm, I am a woman and I read the first and second readings at Mass. I’m a pretty good reader if I do say so myself. I try not to get OVERLY DRAMATIC like some do and just let the word speak for itself. Women can read at Mass, it’s perfectly all right.

As for getting the sacred vessels - it sounds to me like this woman was acting as a sacristan. Again perfectly all right.
 
I have a Lutheran lady friend who gets asked to be reader at a Catholic Mass in a retreat center. She happens to have a masters in theology so I don’t debate theology with her. She is very forceful and dramatic and has taught me a few things as well. She certainly keeps them awake there. 🙂
 
There are a couple of readers where I go to Mass whose style of reading grates. One reads very deliberately. When my children were little, they referred to her as “that lady who reads real slow”. I think she thinks that she’s making it more dramatic, but it just makes me wonder when-she-is-ever-going-to-get-to-the-end-of-the-sentence.

There’s another who reads like she’s trying out for Broadway. Everything is Booming and Dramatic or she reads with a breathless sense of wonder. It doesn’t work, it sounds fake.

I much prefer readers who read clearly and don’t try to interject themselves into the readings. The word of God is powerful and my goal as a reader is to try and make myself invisible and let the word speak for itself.
 
Both go against the liturgical traditions of the pre-Conciliar Roman Rite. Female lectors would seem to be a worse offense against these traditions than female sacristans, but not as bad as female altar servers. All three are permitted under certain circumstances by current Church legislation. If I were a priest, I would keep women out of these positions as a personal rule, breaking that rule only if there were no suitable male candidates (never in the case of altar servers).

But most importantly for the laymen assisting at that Mass, she is reading the Word of God. There is great grace to be obtained from prayerfully listening to Sacred Scripture, even when it is being read by a woman.

Thinking about it just now, I think the story of Sts. Martha and Mary would seem to apply here to me: I need to choose the better part when I encounter liturgical abuses, accidents and imperfections, by staying focused on Christ.
 
It really doesn’t matter to me who is the reader, to be honest. No offense to anyone, but anyone can read or try to read out loud from a book. I need to do my own reading, either from the handmissal or the missalette, to grasp the full meaning of the epistle/gospel, psalm/collect, etc.

A homily is a different issue.
 
BobP123 said:
It really doesn’t matter to me who is the reader, to be honest. No offense to anyone, but anyone can read or try to read out loud from a book. I need to do my own reading, either from the hand missal or the musette, to grasp the full meaning of the epistle/gospel, psalm/collect, etc.

A homily is a different issue.
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I am fine with anyone (Catholic) that can do it properly doing the readings. But, and this is a big one, I feel the readings done by lay people should be done from a lectern off to the side. I am so glad that the cantors remain at the side in our Mass.
 
KathleenElsie said:
I am fine with anyone (Catholic) that can do it properly doing the readings. But, and this is a big one, I feel the readings done by lay people should be done from a lectern off to the side. I am so glad that the cantors remain at the side in our Mass.
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It’s about the Word of God, not who is reading it.

The Word should always be proclaimed from the ambo, not relegated to the side because of WHO is reading it.
 
KathleenElsie said:
Then the readings should be done my men IMHO.
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Why? Women are also created in the image and likeness of God. We are not in persona Christi, but neither are lay men.

The voice of a woman reading the Word of God is just as much the voice of God as the voice of a man reading the Word of God.

I really don’t get the whole notion that women can’t do this or can’t do that, if it is a lay role. Women Catholics are lay members of the Catholic Church, and everything that is open to lay members is open to women.
 
jmcrae said:
Why? Women are also created in the image and likeness of God. We are not in persona Christi, but neither are lay men.

The voice of a woman reading the Word of God is just as much the voice of God as the voice of a man reading the Word of God.

I really don’t get the whole notion that women can’t do this or can’t do that, if it is a lay role. Women Catholics are lay members of the Catholic Church, and everything that is open to lay members is open to women.
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Exactly.
 
BobP123 said:
It really doesn’t matter to me who is the reader, to be honest. No offense to anyone, but anyone can read or try to read out loud from a book. I need to do my own reading, either from the handmissal or the missalette, to grasp the full meaning of the epistle/gospel, psalm/collect, etc.
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It’s not just “reading out loud from a book”. The ancient office of lector is the administration of the word of God.

Sacred Scripture was written by human authors who were male. The most authentic human voice proclaiming Sacred Scripture is therefore male. Just as at Communion, the congregation’s posture is receptive (feminine) when Scripture is being read. From time immemorial, the Church has restricted (and She continues to restrict) the order of lector to men.

The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Deaconesses has the following take on women reading the Epistle:
We hear of them presiding over assemblies of women, reading the Epistle and Gospel, distributing the Blessed Eucharist to nuns, lighting the candles, burning incense in the thuribles, adorning the sanctuary, and anointing the sick (see Hefele-LeClercq, II, 448). All these things must be regarded as abuses which ecclesiastical legislation was not long in repressing.
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jmcrae said:
Women Catholics are lay members of the Catholic Church, and everything that is open to lay members is open to women.
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By what authority do you say that “everything that is open to lay members is open to women”? Is this in Scripture? Canon law? Any document of Vatican II?

The ministries of lector and acolyte, the ability to have one’s feet washed on Holy Thursday, the ability to father children and marry women, are all examples of things restricted to men alone by the law of God, the law of the Church or the law of humankind.
 
“I have a Lutheran lady friend who gets asked to be reader at a Catholic Mass in a retreat center. She happens to have a masters in theology so I don’t debate theology with her. She is very forceful and dramatic and has taught me a few things as well. She certainly keeps them awake there.”

I do not wish to cause trouble, but I have a problem with a non-Catholic acting as Lector at a Mass. Am I wrong in this?
 
jmj603 said:
By what authority do you say that “everything that is open to lay members is open to women”? Is this in Scripture? Canon law? Any document of Vatican II?
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It’s in Mulieris Dignitarum - the Dignity of Women. It’s also the current practice of the Vatican.
The ministries of lector and acolyte, the ability to have one’s feet washed on Holy Thursday, the ability to father children and marry women, are all examples of things restricted to men alone by the law of God, the law of the Church or the law of humankind.
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The first three things you mention are most proper for Seminarians and priests - lay men should not be doing these things any more than lay women, but when lay persons are doing them, then it’s equal - both men and women can do them, when it’s lay people doing them - which is not the ideal. But there is nothing inherently superior about a lay man, over a lay woman.

Remember, the highest creature in Heaven, and standing closest of all to the Altar of God, is a married lay woman - Mother Mary. 😉
 
jmj603 said:
It’s not just “reading out loud from a book”. The ancient office of lector is the administration of the word of God.

Sacred Scripture was written by human authors who were male. The most authentic human voice proclaiming Sacred Scripture is therefore male. Just as at Communion, the congregation’s posture is receptive (feminine) when Scripture is being read. From time immemorial, the Church has restricted (and She continues to restrict) the order of lector to men.

The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Deaconesses has the following take on women reading the Epistle:
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:amen:
 
jmj603 said:
By what authority do you say that “everything that is open to lay members is open to women”? Is this in Scripture? Canon law? Any document of Vatican II?

The ministries of lector and acolyte, the ability to have one’s feet washed on Holy Thursday, the ability to father children and marry women, are all examples of things restricted to men alone by the law of God, the law of the Church or the law of humankind.
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Thank you. There are things that only women can do. Be Nuns, have babies, be a wife etc.
 
AJV said:
Subdeacons, or in their absence, lectors.
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The Minor Orders, including the subdiaconate, were suppressed by the Second Vatican Council. These were replaced by the Ministries of Acolyte and Reader (Lector), which are ordinarily given to seminarians before their diaconate ordination. Some bishops are now encouraging laymen to be installed as acolytes and readers, and these ministries are only open to males. Female lectors may be used if no installed reader is present, and female acolytes may be used if no installed acolyte is present AT THE DISCRETION OF THE PASTOR, who may choose to allow only male non-installed acolytes (altar boys).
 
jmj603 said:
It’s not just “reading out loud from a book”. The ancient office of lector is the administration of the word of God.
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I understand that. Nevertheless I think it would behoove everyone to have the text available in front of them as well. You can go back if you have questions or read ahead or you are just hard of hearing or misinterpret things easily. The missalette is good to follow along. I don’t know why it’s discouraged. The TLM missal usually has the Latin and the vernacular side by side to further clarify the readings if you have a little training in Latin. In other words, it helps to have many resources for the readings, not only the lector.
 
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