Women & the Mass 2

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jmj603, it looks like jmcrae’s comment about your double standards was right on target.

You have no problem telling everyone how “wrong” they are, yet any comment directed to you is “uncharitable” and “harassment.” The give-and-take of a combox discussion means that feedback goes both ways. btw, “more Catholic than the pope” is a standard expression.

(going now to find the kilt comments)
 
It’s fine for men to prefer women in skirts (and even insist on it as the religious duty of women to be nothing more than eye-candy for men), but I’m committing the sin of lust if I prefer men in kilts?
The implied preference on your part was that you liked looking at men in kilts. If I mistook your wink, and your use of italics for emphasis on certain words like prefer, then I apologize.

What women wear while in the congregation at Mass or elsewhere is not part of this thread. The uniform of the minister is the same (alb and cincture) when women are performing the function as when male ministers are ministering. That I find aesthetically unnatural.

I’d rather not look at women serving as ministers at all, of course. In fact, I’d rather not pay much attention to ministers, and keep my focus on Christ in the Eucharist and in the priest. So it’s not like I’m saying they should dress provocatively or even more femininely. Just differently. But that would imply that they held a different office, so the radical feminists would chafe against it.
Once again, what is virtuous for men (telling women how to dress) is sinful in the extreme, for women. :rolleyes:
If I were to tell a woman (not my wife) how to dress in order to arouse my sensual appetites, it would be lustful and grievously sinful, and confessible. In fact, I wouldn’t have to tell anyone how to dress, merely holding the preference would be enough. The Church and I both prefer that women wear modest clothing, for the opposite reason entirely, so that men won’t be tempted to lust.

According to one of the fine traditions of the Latin Church, whenever the priest reads the Gospel passage where the Pharisees accuse Jesus of being possessed by a devil, we strike our breasts. It is remarkable to me how often virtue and vice are mistaken for each other by our darkened intellects.
 
The implied preference on your part was that you liked looking at men in kilts. If I mistook your wink, and your use of italics for emphasis on certain words like prefer, then I apologize.
My point was that not all cultures put males in pants and females in dresses - that’s what the winky and the italics were for - because I’m Scottish, and in the traditional culture, men didn’t wear pants - women did.
What women wear while in the congregation at Mass or elsewhere is not part of this thread. The uniform of the minister is the same (alb and cincture) when women are performing the function as when male ministers are ministering. That I find aesthetically unnatural.
So, if a woman police officer or a woman fire fighter wears the uniform of her job (so that she can be identified in her helping role when in a crowd), you’d think that was unnatural? :confused:
 
So, if a woman police officer or a woman fire fighter wears the uniform of her job (so that she can be identified in her helping role when in a crowd), you’d think that was unnatural? :confused:
Women in groups organized as a militia (like police or firefighter or the Armed Forces) tend to have modified uniform standards, particularly on dress occasions. It is not uncommon to see women firefighters, police, Army, Navy, etc., wearing skirts while still looking recognizably like their brothers in uniform.
 
Women in groups organized as a militia (like police or firefighter or the Armed Forces) tend to have modified uniform standards, particularly on dress occasions. It is not uncommon to see women firefighters, police, Army, Navy, etc., wearing skirts while still looking recognizably like their brothers in uniform.
Not while actually working, usually.

(I should think that the ponytails and the colourful shoes ought to distinguish girl servers from boys well enough.)
 
Not while actually working, usually.
Abuses notwithstanding, dress uniforms are for work.
(I should think that the ponytails and the colourful shoes ought to distinguish girl servers from boys well enough.)
Alas, it should not surprise us that androgyny doesn’t stop with the alb. Plenty of young men today wear ponytails and colorful shoes, and young ladies have short hair and poorly tied sneakers.
 
Abuses notwithstanding, dress uniforms are for work.
Oh, yes, and I always wear my wedding dress to do the housework, too. :rolleyes:

(Psst: It’s called “dress” because it’s for formal occasions - not for work.)
Alas, it should not surprise us that androgyny doesn’t stop with the alb. Plenty of young men today wear ponytails and colorful shoes, and young ladies have short hair and poorly tied sneakers.
And so your complaint is … :confused:

After all, if you can’t tell them apart, how are you so certain that there are even any girls up there?

For all you know, your priest has been using all boys for years, now, and you haven’t even noticed, yet. 🤷 😛
 
Oh, yes, and I always wear my wedding dress to do the housework, too. :rolleyes:

(Psst: It’s called “dress” because it’s for formal occasions - not for work.)
Mass is a most formal occasion. Serving Mass is not housework. If the Buckingham Palace guard can wear dress uniforms all the time, so can the servants of the King of Kings.

Sadly, some people do treat it like a casual meal, and altar service like it were housework, and purification of the vessels like it were washing dishes. What sort of Christian life can be built on such weak manifestations faith in the Real Presence of God in the Holy Eucharist? Surely this is not the Catholicism of the Popes who instituted the changes?
 
Mass is a most formal occasion. Serving Mass is not housework. If the Buckingham Palace guard can wear dress uniforms all the time, so can the servants of the King of Kings.
I was actually referring to the difference between police officers on the job, and police officers attending a formal occasion.
 
I was actually referring to the difference between police officers on the job, and police officers attending a formal occasion.
So you think Mass is more like a street patrol than a state banquet at which working officers in dress uniform will perform various functions like honor guard, flag bearer or emcee. Perhaps at your church, Mass is said this way? If so, what a pity for you and your fellow parishioners.
 
So you think Mass is more like a street patrol than a state banquet at which working officers in dress uniform will perform various functions like honor guard, flag bearer or emcee. Perhaps at your church, Mass is said this way? If so, what a pity for you and your fellow parishioners.
We were discussing male and female fashions; not the Mass. :confused: 🤷
 
Mass is a most formal occasion. Serving Mass is not housework. If the Buckingham Palace guard can wear dress uniforms all the time, so can the servants of the King of Kings.

Sadly, some people do treat it like a casual meal, and altar service like it were housework, and purification of the vessels like it were washing dishes. What sort of Christian life can be built on such weak manifestations faith in the Real Presence of God in the Holy Eucharist? Surely this is not the Catholicism of the Popes who instituted the changes?
I think your premise is flawed. The people who do the real “guarding” at Buck House are in fact in working kit. The bearskin-hatted chaps at the sentry boxes and who participate in the Changing of the Guard are part of the tourist show. I assume from your answer that you wear a tuxedo, at least, to Mass every Sunday? White tie and tails on Solemnities?
 
I’m quite amazed at the nature of the conversation on this subject. One of the great advantages of being Catholic is that we don’t have to argue about things like this. .

As a Deacon I quickly learned that this is what governs the Liturgy (and ministers, etc.):
  1. The General Instruction of the Roman Missal.
  2. The way the Bishop (or sometimes the priest) interprets the GIRM.
The Bishop is responsible for the Liturgy and Sacraments in his diocese. If you think a priest is out-of-line on a certain practice bring it to his attention. If the situation doesn’t change report it to the Bishop. Interpretation is going to vary depending on Bishop (or priest). I’ve had the privelege of serving with different priests and although they do things a little bit differently they are all quite sure they are being faithful to the Instruction. The GIRM is more vague than many of us would like - but it is what it is - a GENERAL instruction.
 
I assume from your answer that you wear a tuxedo, at least, to Mass every Sunday? White tie and tails on Solemnities?
We weren’t talking about what the congregation wears, but whether there should be different ministerial vestments depending on sex.
 
One of the great advantages of being Catholic is that we don’t have to argue about things like this.
What are you talking about, Deacon? Are you encouraging silence in the face of evil? Ignorance? This sounds like neo-clericalism.

The liturgy is more than what one priest happens to do, and it’s more than what some bishops allow some priests to get away with. The liturgy is the most important thing we do as Catholics, and thus it is naturally the forum for the greatest contention between Christ and Satan on earth.

Laymen and laywomen must be informed about the liturgy in order to participate fully, consciously and actively. This is why there are books on the subject, and many documents published in Rome addressed to all the faithful. All parishes around the world were encouraged by Rome to have public readings of GIRM during the Eucharistic Year. How did yours go?
 
I think your premise is flawed. The people who do the real “guarding” at Buck House are in fact in working kit.
Yes, good point. Nobody expects those guys in the red jackets and beaver hats to go chasing after bad guys. If you spit on the Queen, the guy who cuffs you and hauls you off will be wearing street gear. The “guards” will remain in place, unmoving and unspeaking, fulfilling their purely decorative role.
 
That woman disagrees with the Church in more than one way if she is a Lutheran. She rejects (for example) the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist. She has no business reading during the Mass.
:amen:
 
What are you talking about, Deacon? Are you encouraging silence in the face of evil? Ignorance? This sounds like neo-clericalism.

The liturgy is more than what one priest happens to do, and it’s more than what some bishops allow some priests to get away with. The liturgy is the most important thing we do as Catholics, and thus it is naturally the forum for the greatest contention between Christ and Satan on earth.

Laymen and laywomen must be informed about the liturgy in order to participate fully, consciously and actively. This is why there are books on the subject, and many documents published in Rome addressed to all the faithful. All parishes around the world were encouraged by Rome to have public readings of GIRM during the Eucharistic Year. How did yours go?
You’re right about laymen and women needing to be informed - that’s why the GIRM is published and available at any Catholic bookstore or can be downloaded for free. Our parish did not read the GIRM but our Bishop published portions of it in the Diocesean newsletter with commentaries by various liturgists.
At any rate - I am not a ‘neoclericalist’ - whatever that is. People should be aware of proper (or improper) liturgical acts and report abuses - first to the Pastor, then to the Bishop if necessary.
Just so we’re clear - my comments were directed to the subject of this Thread - Women and the Mass 2.
 
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