Women/Wives

[Xantippe]

Things will never be properly ordered if Christ is rejected. We should not be surprised when they go very badly.

Islam rejects Christ and His Church. Using female oppression under ISIS for a reason to support abandoning the language of a teaching of the Church (submission) is another fallacy: a non sequitur.

Especially since the Muslims get the entire concept of submission totally wrong.

I was thinking more about Christians with the no-true-Scotsman remark.

What I’m getting at is that when bad examples of strong-submission-gone-wrong are raised, it’s an easy defense to say that the couple was doing it wrong. Had they been doing it right, it would be wonderful!

That would be more impressive if the person saying it would provide more detail (a sort of submission safety manual, let us say), explaining how to safely and virtuously practice submission. I feel like Gardenswithkids and Sheila Wray Gregoire give a good account (and I think there are a lot of commonalities in their approach), but that is not “strong” version submission. It is actually livable, though.

 

[LethalMouse]

I was thinking more about Christians with the no-true-Scotsman remark.

What I’m getting at is that when bad examples of strong-submission-gone-wrong are raised, it’s an easy defense to say that the couple was doing it wrong. Had they been doing it right, it would be wonderful!

That would be more impressive if the person saying it would provide more detail (a sort of submission safety manual, let us say), explaining how to safely and virtuously practice submission. I feel like Gardenswithkids and Sheila Wray Gregoire give a good account (and I think there are a lot of commonalities in their approach), but that is not “strong” version submission. It is actually livable, though.

1. I am personally not spooled up on “no true scottsman” but I believe I fully understand it via your guy’s contextual use
2. Numerous safteies have been mentioned abd subsequentlyignored even when in a quoted post…
3. Since we are dabbling so hard in “what ifs” I would like to ask one.

What if: If you met a man and he was to love you as if you were his flesh and be like Christ. If he was I’ll account for hunanity and say he was 99% up to standards of such. Would you (again accounting for humanity) 99% give full submission?

I ask this because honestly this question creates a situation where you are either to follow God or Not, I feel there is at this point no wiggle room. (If you think the 1% counts as wiggle room please exchange it for 100% for hypothetical purposes)

 

[Xantippe]

Then let’s talk about what it means and how to properly understand it. Pulling in those OT examples and ISIS actions does not support proper understanding of Christian teachings. Those are commonly called up as talking points to reject the teaching altogether.

I wasn’t primarily bringing those in to talk about NT teaching, but to encourage LethalMouse to think a little harder about whether or not it is actually true that historically and globally, being a woman is a cushy gig, as that’s where he seemed to be coming from.

 

[Xantippe]

Xantippe,

In your own words, without recourse to bloggers or copypaste magisterial documents, please explain your understanding of the Church’s teaching on the relationship between spouses. I would really like to know, because so much of what has passed for discourse in this thread seems like shadow boxing and knocking down straw men.

I have already described my understanding in my own words. I would appreciate knowing exactly where you stand, too.

As I’ve said, I like both gardenswithkids’ and Sheila Wray Gregoire’s approach.

Edited to add: Oh! In my own words! I have to run off right now and do stuff, so you catch me at a bad moment, but I really cannot improve on gardenswithkids and Sheila Wray Gregoire.

Long ago upthread, I was also pointing out that we are supposed to submit to the civil authorities, and yet the early Christians were always in hot water with the civil authority for preaching in public, not sacrificing to an image of the emperor, etc. So, that strongly suggests to me that “submit” does not actually mean 100% total obedience.

 

[Xantippe]

1. I am personally not spooled up on “no true scottsman” but I believe I fully understand it via your guy’s contextual use
2. Numerous safteies have been mentioned abd subsequentlyignored even when in a quoted post…
3. Since we are dabbling so hard in “what ifs” I would like to ask one.
   **
   What if: If you met a man and he was to love you as if you were his flesh and be like Christ. If he was I’ll account for hunanity and say he was 99% up to standards of such. Would you (again accounting for humanity) 99% give full submission? **

I ask this because honestly this question creates a situation where you are either to follow God or Not, I feel there is at this point no wiggle room. (If you think the 1% counts as wiggle room please exchange it for 100% for hypothetical purposes)

It’s possible to be very loving, but at the same time to make bad decisions that hurt your family.

A lot of mistakes are made through ignorance and just not seeing how much we are hurting our spouse.

Also, in my own terms, I believe in “soft” submission, but not “hard” submission.

 

[LethalMouse]

It’s possible to be very loving, but at the same time to make bad decisions that hurt your family.

A lot of mistakes are made through ignorance and just not seeing how much we are hurting our spouse.

Also, in my own terms, I believe in “soft” submission, but not “hard” submission.

I shall use an example to hopefully my version of submission.

With my ex gf she was the first to deny a request. Despite being overall “submissive” she was not desiring to listen to me. In response according to what you think is “strong submission” I should have ordered her to do it (not sure how that would have gone lol) But I did not make any kind of demand of it, I expressed my mild displeasure and left her to her individual rights.

Now this was in the context of something fleeting in the sense that we could procede with life without it. But this context is to show how expecting submission doesn’t equate to “orders”. Now when we come to major life decisions I will admit it gets trickier, but the reality is someone HAS to submit in that sense eventually.

People can give all of the two people can agree stuff all they want, but at some point you have two options, stop being married, or someone yields. In most cases I would say to defer to the man IF said decision is at the point of no option other than divorce or yield and ONLY IF said decision is within all moral parameters. That differment at that point is the difference between what God wants and what secularist should call divorce time. Because without God at that point there is no differment and only divorce.

SO basically the only time the wife truly submits in giving up her “will” would be to literally save the marriage IF what she is submitting to is morally good.

How I see any submission with the exception of the above. Is Christ is head to me and I go to mass on Sundays while he was tortured and killed. A bit of a difference huh? The man can not expect a submissive wife if he is not willing to do for her. as I said with the ex gf she was submissive yet she always got what she wanted complex huh?

I can say with her while it is funny since she is the ex gf, and much was a bit of an act playing at proper. The best part was MY ability to lead in something Christlike. MY ability to serve her. And despite the heartache, having gotten to taste something as sweet as what a realationship looks like biblically and it tasted so sweet nothing can compare to it except to experience it again. To be able to give yourself to someone completely (or as much as imperfect humanity will allow) is beyond amazing.

 

[Sarcelle]

But the theme is how wives work in our religion when people follow it.

An example that includes how wives workout in islamic extremism hardly qualifies as what St. Paul’s passage or any other bible or catechism passage says.

The issue here is I am saying how things were meant to work.

You are saying how things work when people are horrible.

Ask me if we should lock people in a cage.

My answer is no.

Now change it to should we put people in jail who steal, rape, and murder.

My answer is yes. But for the core theology, if we are all doing what we should, then no one needs be in cell.

Oh we can discuss ideal circumstances all we want, but a lot of posters here and I include myself, wants to see how it works in the real world.

 

[jmjZelie]

It’s possible to be very loving, but at the same time to make bad decisions that hurt your family.

A lot of mistakes are made through ignorance and just not seeing how much we are hurting our spouse.

Also, in my own terms, I believe in “soft” submission, but not “hard” submission.

Then it seems we are still in agreement, even though I objected to a couple of your examples as being not relevant. Thank you for clarifying.

I have visited To Love, Honor, and Vacuum several times before, so even though I couldn’t find any specific link in this thread (I probably just overlooked it), I am familiar with her perspective. With the exception of some of her stuff on married sexual ethics, which if I recall allows for sexual behavior and family planning choices that are against Catholic teachings, I have appreciated much of what she has to say. Although I find it best to read her in small doses, because so many of the people who reach out to her for advice, which therefore impact the types of blog posts she puts up, are seriously broken and hurting. It can give a reader a rather dim view of marriage very quickly. I don’t know how she is able to stay so upbeat with the type of correspondence she receives!

 

[Sarcelle]

I shall use an example to hopefully my version of submission.

With my ex gf she was the first to deny a request. Despite being overall “submissive” she was not desiring to listen to me. In response according to what you think is “strong submission” I should have ordered her to do it (not sure how that would have gone lol) But I did not make any kind of demand of it, I expressed my mild displeasure and left her to her individual rights.

Now this was in the context of something fleeting in the sense that we could procede with life without it. But this context is to show how expecting submission doesn’t equate to “orders”. Now when we come to major life decisions I will admit it gets trickier, but the reality is someone HAS to submit in that sense eventually.

People can give all of the two people can agree stuff all they want, but at some point you have two options, stop being married, or someone yields. In most cases I would say to defer to the man IF said decision is at the point of no option other than divorce or yield and ONLY IF said decision is within all moral parameters. That differment at that point is the difference between what God wants and what secularist should call divorce time. Because without God at that point there is no differment and only divorce.

SO basically the only time the wife truly submits in giving up her “will” would be to literally save the marriage IF what she is submitting to is morally good.

How I see any submission with the exception of the above. Is Christ is head to me and I go to mass on Sundays while he was tortured and killed. A bit of a difference huh? The man can not expect a submissive wife if he is not willing to do for her. as I said with the ex gf she was submissive yet she always got what she wanted complex huh?

I can say with her while it is funny since she is the ex gf, and much was a bit of an act playing at proper. The best part was MY ability to lead in something Christlike. MY ability to serve her. And despite the heartache, having gotten to taste something as sweet as what a realationship looks like biblically and it tasted so sweet nothing can compare to it except to experience it again. To be able to give yourself to someone completely (or as much as imperfect humanity will allow) is beyond amazing.

So how do you lead in a Christlike way?

 

[LethalMouse]

It’s possible to be very loving, but at the same time to make bad decisions that hurt your family.

A lot of mistakes are made through ignorance and just not seeing how much we are hurting our spouse.

Also, in my own terms, I believe in “soft” submission, but not “hard” submission.

You should be a politican since you can not answer a direct question without adding parameters. I believe that is how we can all justify ignoring God’s will at anytime. I have been a professional at that most of my life. I have to admit you are not nearly as good as I was. I would have actually convinced you it was better for God that I ignore his will

But I would say that clearly you make my jadedness look non existant. I actually am appreciating feeling for the first time in decades like I am not the most cynical person around.

 

[jmjZelie]

I shall use an example to hopefully my version of submission.

With my ex gf she was the first to deny a request. Despite being overall “submissive” she was not desiring to listen to me. In response according to what you think is “strong submission” I should have ordered her to do it (not sure how that would have gone lol) But I did not make any kind of demand of it, I expressed my mild displeasure and left her to her individual rights.

Now this was in the context of something fleeting in the sense that we could procede with life without it. But this context is to show how expecting submission doesn’t equate to “orders”. Now when we come to major life decisions I will admit it gets trickier, but the reality is someone HAS to submit in that sense eventually.

People can give all of the two people can agree stuff all they want, but at some point you have two options, stop being married, or someone yields. In most cases I would say to defer to the man IF said decision is at the point of no option other than divorce or yield and ONLY IF said decision is within all moral parameters. That differment at that point is the difference between what God wants and what secularist should call divorce time. Because without God at that point there is no differment and only divorce.

SO basically the only time the wife truly submits in giving up her “will” would be to literally save the marriage IF what she is submitting to is morally good.

How I see any submission with the exception of the above. Is Christ is head to me and I go to mass on Sundays while he was tortured and killed. A bit of a difference huh? The man can not expect a submissive wife if he is not willing to do for her. as I said with the ex gf she was submissive yet she always got what she wanted complex huh?

I can say with her while it is funny since she is the ex gf, and much was a bit of an act playing at proper. The best part was MY ability to lead in something Christlike. MY ability to serve her. And despite the heartache, having gotten to taste something as sweet as what a realationship looks like biblically and it tasted so sweet nothing can compare to it except to experience it again. To be able to give yourself to someone completely (or as much as imperfect humanity will allow) is beyond amazing.

I appreciate what you are trying to say to a certain extent, but just to be clear, a girlfriend owes no submission whatsoever to her boyfriend. No vows have been made, and no marital bonds exist. It is not relevant to the thread what kind of relationship you had with an ex-GF, and it is really hard to take those examples seriously, as a woman who is approaching 20 years of marriage. I mean no offense, so I hope you won’t be offended. But it is probably better for you to argue from principles, rather than courtship experience.

 

[Sarcelle]

You should be a politican since you can not answer a direct question without adding parameters. I believe that is how we can all justify ignoring God’s will at anytime. I have been a professional at that most of my life. I have to admit you are not nearly as good as I was. I would have actually convinced you it was better for God that I ignore his will

But I would say that clearly you make my jadedness look non existant. I actually am appreciating feeling for the first time in decades like I am not the most cynical person around.

Of course you are not the most cynical person around. You are not being called to submit. It is your wife, which puts her in a vulnerable position. You can couch it in flowery words all you like but submission puts someone in a vulnerable position, be it in the workplace or in marriage. That is the way it is. Not being cynical but being realistic. This is why the Bible calls the woman the weaker vessel because not only is she physically weaker than her husband but she is vulnerable in her submission to him.

 

[jmjZelie]

You should be a politican since you can not answer a direct question without adding parameters. I believe that is how we can all justify ignoring God’s will at anytime. I have been a professional at that most of my life. I have to admit you are not nearly as good as I was. I would have actually convinced you it was better for God that I ignore his will

But I would say that clearly you make my jadedness look non existant. I actually am appreciating feeling for the first time in decades like I am not the most cynical person around.

Ad hominem fallacy

 

[Sarcelle]

Things will never be properly ordered if Christ is rejected. We should not be surprised when they go very badly.

Islam rejects Christ and His Church. Using female oppression under ISIS for a reason to support abandoning the language of a teaching of the Church (submission) is another fallacy: a non sequitur.

Especially since the Muslims get the entire concept of submission totally wrong.

Who said abandoning the submission teaching of the Church? I firmly believe the husband is to be the spiritual leader of the household and his duty is bring his family to heaven. If he abuses his authority he will have to answer to Jesus. I would not like to be in his place if he gives an accounting of what he has done and he has fallen far short of the mark.

However there are Christian men who do abuse their authority. You may say that they are not really Christian. However, I would like to know how these wives can be protected instead of being asked to submit more. What would you do?

 

[jmjZelie]

Who said abandoning the submission teaching of the Church? I firmly believe the husband is to be the spiritual leader of the household and his duty is bring his family to heaven. If he abuses his authority he will have to answer to Jesus. I would not like to be in his place if he gives an accounting of what he has done and he has fallen far short of the mark.

However there are Christian men who do abuse their authority. You may say that they are not really Christian. However, I would like to know how these wives can be protected instead of being asked to submit more. What would you do?

To your first paragraph, I misunderstood Xantippe’s points but she has since clarified and I agree with her.

To the second, are you asking me personally or speaking rhetorically? I want to know that before I attempt a response. Thanks.

 

[LethalMouse]

Of course you are not the most cynical person around. You are not being called to submit. It is your wife, which puts her in a vulnerable position. You can couch it in flowery words all you like but submission puts someone in a vulnerable position, be it in the workplace or in marriage. That is the way it is. Not being cynical but being realistic. This is why the Bible calls the woman the weaker vessel because not only is she physically weaker than her husband but she is vulnerable in her submission to him.

Again you have missed how submissive the husband is called to be. And have missed my example of Jesus torture and death vs My going to a big climate controlled building and then getting free doughnuts…

If the husband does what he is supposed to do than he would actually spend more time being vulnerable. He would actually submit more often.

I can think of the show Rosanne. Like 98% of the time Rosanne ran the roost, once every 2 seasons Dan would decide an issue was big enough to get all manly about and Rosanne would become submissive. This is how I see it, in essence to earn that submission he spends 98% of his time making her happy and once every two years he gets some say so. It is vulnerable to give a woman whatever she wants. which is what men are called to do. It is vulnerable to give up what you want to ensure your wife gets what she wants. But you can not see anything required of anyone else. You operate under the ONE AT A TIME fallacy that somehow makes the existence of one thing negate the existence of another. That is only true with matter and anti matter, and even that is only theory. NEVER EVER HAS THE SHEER EXISTENCE OF SOMETHING IN HUMAN HISTORY MADE ANOTHER THING STOP EXISTING. Jeez.

If your logic were accurate than for the fact that a woman can have a bad day means that I can not

Since ISIS killed someone today, I must be immortal

Since you are on earth I must not be…I have REALLY good wifi

Since I just ate Ice Cream you have now never tasted it.

 

[Sarcelle]

To your first paragraph, I misunderstood Xantippe’s points but she has since clarified and I agree with her.

To the second, are you asking me personally or speaking rhetorically? I want to know that before I attempt a response. Thanks.

Please ignore the latter part. I was just asking rhetorically. I was a witness to domestic abuse when a former neighbor would periodically grab his wife’s head and slam her face on any available surface. I could hear the noises. I wonder to this day what I could have done.

 

[LethalMouse]

Please ignore the latter part. I was just asking rhetorically. I was a witness to domestic abuse when a former neighbor would periodically grab his wife’s head and slam her face on any available surface. I could hear the noises. I wonder to this day what I could have done.

I might add that beating someone into submission has nothing to do with voluntary submission. When we are called to do anything biblically it is on us to do/not to do via free will. Beating someone into it is a non-thing…even at the height of Catholicism no one was beaten into Mass if they didn’t want to go. (if they were it was never within any teaching anywhere to do so)

 

[jmjZelie]

Please ignore the latter part. I was just asking rhetorically. I was a witness to domestic abuse when a former neighbor would periodically grab his wife’s head and slam her face on any available surface. I could hear the noises. I wonder to this day what I could have done.

How nauseating. I am so sorry, both for the victim and for you having to witness that.

 

[jmjZelie]

Again you have missed how submissive the husband is called to be. And have missed my example of Jesus torture and death vs My going to a big climate controlled building and then getting free doughnuts…

If the husband does what he is supposed to do than he would actually spend more time being vulnerable. He would actually submit more often.

I can think of the show Rosanne. Like 98% of the time Rosanne ran the roost, once every 2 seasons Dan would decide an issue was big enough to get all manly about and Rosanne would become submissive. This is how I see it, in essence to earn that submission he spends 98% of his time making her happy and once every two years he gets some say so. It is vulnerable to give a woman whatever she wants. which is what men are called to do. It is vulnerable to give up what you want to ensure your wife gets what she wants. But you can not see anything required of anyone else. You operate under the ONE AT A TIME fallacy that somehow makes the existence of one thing negate the existence of another. That is only true with matter and anti matter, and even that is only theory. NEVER EVER HAS THE SHEER EXISTENCE OF SOMETHING IN HUMAN HISTORY MADE ANOTHER THING STOP EXISTING. Jeez.

If your logic were accurate than for the fact that a woman can have a bad day means that I can not

Since ISIS killed someone today, I must be immortal

Since you are on earth I must not be…I have REALLY good wifi

Since I just ate Ice Cream you have now never tasted it.

To the highlighted red section: No. A husband is most certain NOT called to give his wife whatever she wants, nor to give up what he wants to ensure she gets what she wants. This is simply not true. And I certainly hope you are not using Roseanne as an example of a properly ordered Christian marriage.