A
Annabelle_Marie
Guest
You know men don’t help their own cause…my husband gets flack from other Catholic men for…going to too many Masses… “What have you done that you need to go to so many Masses?”
- Status
J
JReducation
Guest
I have to read it. The summary that you posted is missing pieces. I can’t believe that a scholar would miss those.
Yeah, but half of them are sisters.
Trust me, you don’t want to be married to an American sister. I’ve worked with them for years.Given that these women aren’t doing something banned by the church, it would be great to be married to someone who takes their faith seriously!
They’re very good at what they do; but they’re not the warmest people in the world.
Thank God the newer communities are changing that image.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
T
TimothyH
Guest
The book promoted seems to me to be an attempt to intellectualize the John Eldridge “Wild at Heart” Christian manhood adventure-warrior genre.
That the author would specifically single out St. Bernard of Clairveax as bringing feminism into the Church is interesting.
St. Bernard had a deep devotion to the Blessed Virgin and advanced devotion to the Blessed Virgin like few others in the Church. He did write about the soul’s relationship to God and much of that was based on Song of Songs in the Bible, from which he also drew imagery of the Blessed Virgin.
-Tim-
A
agnes_therese
Guest
The only way a woman can step up to fill an opening, is if it’s open. I’ve never seen males kicked out of reader/EMHC/altar server positions so that females could take their places.
B
ballin
Guest
I didn’t mean marry a sister/nunYeah, but half of them are sisters.
Trust me, you don’t want to be married to an American sister. I’ve worked with them for years.
They’re very good at what they do; but they’re not the warmest people in the world.
Thank God the newer communities are changing that image.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I was thinking like marrying someone in the financial department in the parish, someone who teaches RCIA, a lay theologian etc
J
JReducation
Guest
There’s my problem. You can’t judge a spiritual master by his writings alone. One has to look at his life and work. Bernard was very devoted to the Blessed Mother, but he was equally devoted to St. Benedict. His writings on Benedictine spirituality are far from feminine. His entire revision of the Benedictine way of life is devoid of any sensitivity that could be labeled “feminine.”
Francis of Assisi was very feminine and his spirituality is a feminine one. Even the way that we govern our houses is very feminine, but not Bernard.
The men whom Bernard attracted were not what I would call “feminine”. They were certainly devoted to the Blessed Mother, but they were also very typical males of their time.
I feel that we’re all over the place on this thread. We’re talking about women in liturgy, women in ministry, feminine spirituality and the question has nothing to do with any of that. The OP’s question is about women in authority. Women don’t need to be involved in liturgy, ministry of live by feminine spirituality to be in authority in the Church. Many women have been in authority in the Church before we even began to ask such questions about liturgy, spirituality and ministry. Today, more and more women are in very high positions not only within dioceses but also at the Vatican. Almost the entire Congregation for Divine Worship is staffed by women theologians and liturgists. The Congregation for Priests is staffed has a very large female staff. They are more than secretaries. In fact, most of the secretaries are priests from around the world.
These women make decisions and policies for the universal Church everyday. The Prefects review them and then pass them on to the pope for his approval and signature.
Pope Paul VI started to hire women from around the world. The largest number are from South America and Spain. Spain has excellent women theologians and some of the best canon lawyers in the world and many are women.
I don’t see how we got to talking about women in the sanctuary. The sanctuary has nothing to do with the Church. The sanctuary is the sanctuary, not the Church. I’m lost here. Someone throw me a life preserver.
I hope so. I just thought that I’d give you fair warning that most of those women are sisters, even if they’re not in habits. That includes the women in the finance department at the chancery. At the parish level it’s different. Most American parishes are middle class and most religious have now pulled out of serving the middle class per the mandate of Vatican II. There are many secular ladies at that level. They’re usually very nice people too.I didn’t mean marry a sister/nun
I was thinking like marrying someone in the financial department in the parish, someone who teaches RCIA, a lay theologian etc
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
M
mick321
Guest
T
Thomas_Casey
Guest
Thread has derailed. Please get back on topic or abandon thread.
G
Geaux_LSU
Guest
I see nothing to worry about when it comes to women serving in their local Church, even having prominent positions of authority and honor. When anyone looks at the Early Church–and I’m talking about as far back as the ministry of St. Paul, you can see that women played important roles in their ecclesial communities and even owned the houses where the first Christians celebrated Mass.
I’m not saying women should become priests–that issue has been settled for good. But I would like to see the active roles of women in the Church re-emphasized and not looked down upon.
I’m not saying women should become priests–that issue has been settled for good. But I would like to see the active roles of women in the Church re-emphasized and not looked down upon.
S
severus68
Guest
Well said. We are talking about one half of the human race.
T
TimothyH
Guest
Apologies to everyone for going off topic but have to ask Brother JR…
I fell in love with the Cistercian Brothers and the Monastery near me when I experienced it for the first time. Had I not had children I might have asked to stay for a while.
I just recieved “I Am the Way: Stages of Prayer in Stain Bernard” by Maureen F. McCabe OSCO and “The Mystical Theology of St. Bernard” by Etienne Gilson, both from Cistercian Publications. These were little more than shots in the dark based on a blurb on a website. The latter seems rather dense.
Can you recommend something better to read? Something to help study “His life and work” as you say?
Sorry to go so far afield. I promise I’ll stop.
-Tim-
W
Walking_Home
Guest
B
Blue_Jr
Guest
What were the roles?
L
Lutgardis
Guest
Perfectly said
C
catholicmamajoy
Guest
I hope you can find some of this helpful. The first link is from Pope Benedict XVl’s talk with the General Audience on 2/14/2007
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2007/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20070214_en.html
And this one is from here on Catholic Answers from a few years back (I got the link for the Pope’s talk from the final post there) forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=229911
I’m sure there are a lot more sources out there that can give you some in depth, historical look at ancient monastic communities (Northumbria comes to mind, along with other Celtic Christian communities) and also in Roman times, where the Church needed to be “underground” and the homes of many women were used for gathering. Again, I hope that is helpful for you. I attended a conference last year at a nearby monastery where our homeschooling group meets and “Women in the Early Church” was one of the talks. I really need to organize all the notes I took there and your inquiry has inspired me to do so. If I find any books or reference sources that were recommended, I will either post them here or send you a message.
J
JReducation
Guest
If we study Western monasticism, we find that there is a reason why Benedictine abbesses wear a pectoral cross and some carry a crosier. There was a time when dioceses were so large that the local clergy rarely saw the bishop. They got their marching orders from the local Benedictine abbess. She would preside at many liturgical functions by sitting on the side wearing a pectoral cross and holding a crosier. The secular clergy of the day was not as well educated as the nuns were. Bishops gave the abbess the authority to rule over the clergy instead of appointing a Vicar from among the clergy.
Among the Jewish Christians in Rome, they continued the Jewish custom of the mother being the keeper of the faith. The women hosted the Eucharistic gatherings until they became simpler and simpler that the mass could be celebrated over the tombs of the martyrs instead of private home.
There has been a long standing law in the Church that among religious, women cannot be superiors to men, but men can be superiors to women. This was dispensed in the case of St. Bridgette and her two orders of male and females.
Something similar happened in the Franciscan family. The male Franciscans are not allowed to become involved in the affairs of the Poor Clares, because Francis said that no woman should ever be submissive to a man. The tradition was passed on. When the first nuns left St.Clare’s side to start new houses, Clare gave them autonomy as soon as they could stand on their own. She did not govern them. The Poor Clares are the only Franciscan Order that does not have a superior general or congregations, as do the Benedictines. The reason was to protect the freedom and authority of the abbess of each house.
If you’re a priest and you go to a Poor Clare house to celebrate mass, guess what? The abbess tells you what missal you’re going to use and what form you’re going to use. The priest does not get to decide. He’s on her turf and she has no obligation to submit to any male. This is what gave Mother Angelica so much freedom from the bishops. She’s a Poor Clare abbess. She can’t be touched by any male authority except the pope.
We’re talking about hundreds of years of tradition where women have held great power over males and over the laity, all the way back to the early Benedictines to the current Poor Clares.
Lay women also exercised a great deal of power in the Church. Let’s not forget Queen Isabella of Spain. The bishops reported to her. The Church could do nothing in the kingdom without permission from the crown. It was a rather interesting relationship. The Church ratified the succession of the monarchs and the monarchs dictated to the Church. In cases such as Spain where they did not have the male line of succession that other countries follow, if the monarch was a woman, so be it. She had the power.
In Isabella’s case it was fascinating, because she was married to a king with his own kingdom. Although they brought together the power of the Kingdoms of Castille, Leon, and Arragon, Isabella continued to govern Castille and Leon. The clergy in both kingdoms answered to her.
The history of women in the Church is very interesting. It’s not as the Irish, German and Italian immigrant Catholics painted it to their American descendants. I believe that may have had more to do with the fact that most of these immigrants were peasants. In peasant culture a woman’s realm of authority was different from that of the aristocracy or even the merchant classes.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
Among the Jewish Christians in Rome, they continued the Jewish custom of the mother being the keeper of the faith. The women hosted the Eucharistic gatherings until they became simpler and simpler that the mass could be celebrated over the tombs of the martyrs instead of private home.
There has been a long standing law in the Church that among religious, women cannot be superiors to men, but men can be superiors to women. This was dispensed in the case of St. Bridgette and her two orders of male and females.
Something similar happened in the Franciscan family. The male Franciscans are not allowed to become involved in the affairs of the Poor Clares, because Francis said that no woman should ever be submissive to a man. The tradition was passed on. When the first nuns left St.Clare’s side to start new houses, Clare gave them autonomy as soon as they could stand on their own. She did not govern them. The Poor Clares are the only Franciscan Order that does not have a superior general or congregations, as do the Benedictines. The reason was to protect the freedom and authority of the abbess of each house.
If you’re a priest and you go to a Poor Clare house to celebrate mass, guess what? The abbess tells you what missal you’re going to use and what form you’re going to use. The priest does not get to decide. He’s on her turf and she has no obligation to submit to any male. This is what gave Mother Angelica so much freedom from the bishops. She’s a Poor Clare abbess. She can’t be touched by any male authority except the pope.
We’re talking about hundreds of years of tradition where women have held great power over males and over the laity, all the way back to the early Benedictines to the current Poor Clares.
Lay women also exercised a great deal of power in the Church. Let’s not forget Queen Isabella of Spain. The bishops reported to her. The Church could do nothing in the kingdom without permission from the crown. It was a rather interesting relationship. The Church ratified the succession of the monarchs and the monarchs dictated to the Church. In cases such as Spain where they did not have the male line of succession that other countries follow, if the monarch was a woman, so be it. She had the power.
In Isabella’s case it was fascinating, because she was married to a king with his own kingdom. Although they brought together the power of the Kingdoms of Castille, Leon, and Arragon, Isabella continued to govern Castille and Leon. The clergy in both kingdoms answered to her.
The history of women in the Church is very interesting. It’s not as the Irish, German and Italian immigrant Catholics painted it to their American descendants. I believe that may have had more to do with the fact that most of these immigrants were peasants. In peasant culture a woman’s realm of authority was different from that of the aristocracy or even the merchant classes.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
B
ballin
Guest
I think you also have to make the distinction that all these women could not teach in the same way a priest does. That authority is reserved for men only and it has always been that way.If we study Western monasticism, we find that there is a reason why Benedictine abbesses wear a pectoral cross and some carry a crosier. There was a time when dioceses were so large that the local clergy rarely saw the bishop. They got their marching orders from the local Benedictine abbess. She would preside at many liturgical functions by sitting on the side wearing a pectoral cross and holding a crosier. The secular clergy of the day was not as well educated as the nuns were. Bishops gave the abbess the authority to rule over the clergy instead of appointing a Vicar from among the clergy.
Among the Jewish Christians in Rome, they continued the Jewish custom of the mother being the keeper of the faith. The women hosted the Eucharistic gatherings until they became simpler and simpler that the mass could be celebrated over the tombs of the martyrs instead of private home.
There has been a long standing law in the Church that among religious, women cannot be superiors to men, but men can be superiors to women. This was dispensed in the case of St. Bridgette and her two orders of male and females.
Something similar happened in the Franciscan family. The male Franciscans are not allowed to become involved in the affairs of the Poor Clares, because Francis said that no woman should ever be submissive to a man. The tradition was passed on. When the first nuns left St.Clare’s side to start new houses, Clare gave them autonomy as soon as they could stand on their own. She did not govern them. The Poor Clares are the only Franciscan Order that does not have a superior general or congregations, as do the Benedictines. The reason was to protect the freedom and authority of the abbess of each house.
If you’re a priest and you go to a Poor Clare house to celebrate mass, guess what? The abbess tells you what missal you’re going to use and what form you’re going to use. The priest does not get to decide. He’s on her turf and she has no obligation to submit to any male. This is what gave Mother Angelica so much freedom from the bishops. She’s a Poor Clare abbess. She can’t be touched by any male authority except the pope.
We’re talking about hundreds of years of tradition where women have held great power over males and over the laity, all the way back to the early Benedictines to the current Poor Clares.
Lay women also exercised a great deal of power in the Church. Let’s not forget Queen Isabella of Spain. The bishops reported to her. The Church could do nothing in the kingdom without permission from the crown. It was a rather interesting relationship. The Church ratified the succession of the monarchs and the monarchs dictated to the Church. In cases such as Spain where they did not have the male line of succession that other countries follow, if the monarch was a woman, so be it. She had the power.
In Isabella’s case it was fascinating, because she was married to a king with his own kingdom. Although they brought together the power of the Kingdoms of Castille, Leon, and Arragon, Isabella continued to govern Castille and Leon. The clergy in both kingdoms answered to her.
The history of women in the Church is very interesting. It’s not as the Irish, German and Italian immigrant Catholics painted it to their American descendants. I believe that may have had more to do with the fact that most of these immigrants were peasants. In peasant culture a woman’s realm of authority was different from that of the aristocracy or even the merchant classes.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
On the other hand, management of resources, Catechesis or politics can be done by women.
M
Melchior_1
Guest
This stuff is incredibly fascinating! I wish I had the time and resources to get the same PHD that you haveIf we study Western monasticism, we find that there is a reason why Benedictine abbesses wear a pectoral cross and some carry a crosier. There was a time when dioceses were so large that the local clergy rarely saw the bishop. They got their marching orders from the local Benedictine abbess. She would preside at many liturgical functions by sitting on the side wearing a pectoral cross and holding a crosier. The secular clergy of the day was not as well educated as the nuns were. Bishops gave the abbess the authority to rule over the clergy instead of appointing a Vicar from among the clergy.
Among the Jewish Christians in Rome, they continued the Jewish custom of the mother being the keeper of the faith. The women hosted the Eucharistic gatherings until they became simpler and simpler that the mass could be celebrated over the tombs of the martyrs instead of private home.
There has been a long standing law in the Church that among religious, women cannot be superiors to men, but men can be superiors to women. This was dispensed in the case of St. Bridgette and her two orders of male and females.
Something similar happened in the Franciscan family. The male Franciscans are not allowed to become involved in the affairs of the Poor Clares, because Francis said that no woman should ever be submissive to a man. The tradition was passed on. When the first nuns left St.Clare’s side to start new houses, Clare gave them autonomy as soon as they could stand on their own. She did not govern them. The Poor Clares are the only Franciscan Order that does not have a superior general or congregations, as do the Benedictines. The reason was to protect the freedom and authority of the abbess of each house.
If you’re a priest and you go to a Poor Clare house to celebrate mass, guess what? The abbess tells you what missal you’re going to use and what form you’re going to use. The priest does not get to decide. He’s on her turf and she has no obligation to submit to any male. This is what gave Mother Angelica so much freedom from the bishops. She’s a Poor Clare abbess. She can’t be touched by any male authority except the pope.
We’re talking about hundreds of years of tradition where women have held great power over males and over the laity, all the way back to the early Benedictines to the current Poor Clares.
Lay women also exercised a great deal of power in the Church. Let’s not forget Queen Isabella of Spain. The bishops reported to her. The Church could do nothing in the kingdom without permission from the crown. It was a rather interesting relationship. The Church ratified the succession of the monarchs and the monarchs dictated to the Church. In cases such as Spain where they did not have the male line of succession that other countries follow, if the monarch was a woman, so be it. She had the power.
In Isabella’s case it was fascinating, because she was married to a king with his own kingdom. Although they brought together the power of the Kingdoms of Castille, Leon, and Arragon, Isabella continued to govern Castille and Leon. The clergy in both kingdoms answered to her.
The history of women in the Church is very interesting. It’s not as the Irish, German and Italian immigrant Catholics painted it to their American descendants. I believe that may have had more to do with the fact that most of these immigrants were peasants. In peasant culture a woman’s realm of authority was different from that of the aristocracy or even the merchant classes.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
JReducation
Guest
They can certainly teach, look at Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Siena and Therese the Little Flower. They are Doctors, which means that they are teachers of the Church.This stuff is incredibly fascinating! I wish I had the time and resources to get the same PHD that you have
Today, they teach in seminaries, schools of theology, conferences and many settings. The changes in the OF were taught to our priests by a woman theologian. The professor of sacramental theology that I had in Roman was a lay Opus Dei woman. She was training all priests and religious to celebrate the sacraments and the meaning of the sacraments.
Maybe the word that you’re looking for is preach as in preaching in the liturgy. Because they can preach retreats and they can preach in non liturgical functions. There is a provision for women religious to preach during the LOTH, if they are in solemn vows.
They certainly teach as many priests teach. They are spiritual directors, retreat masters and even chaplains.
I believe that the Benedictine nuns were the first women spiritual directors and retreat masters. They have been doing this for more than 1000 years. The Bennies are pretty old. Today, there are many lay women doing this kind of preaching and teaching. One of the groups that has the largest number of women preachers and theologians is Opus Dei. At my alma mater in Rome,which is run by Opus Dei, many of our professors were lay women theologians. They were all Opus Dei. You know that they were very orthodox.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
B
ballin
Guest
Actually yes, that was the distinction I wanted to say.
- Status