Women's Ordination: A Survey [edited]

[Gottle_of_Geer]

[Hallo, my name is Peirs and I’ve started this thread for a simple reason. I am a Highschool student and as a requirement to write a Rhetorical research paper for my AP Literature class i have to survey at least twenty five people. I decided that since my topic, which is Should the Catholic Church allow the Ordination of Women, that it was best that i found mostly Catholics to survey, though anyone is more then welcome to fill out the survey. it’s not ment to offend people in any way, it’s just a simple questionnaire, and i hope that a few of you can find it in your hearts to take a few minutes out of your time to answer this simple survey.

~Peirs

Survey on Female Ordination

1. Sex: Male
2. Age: n/d
3. Religion: Catholic

1. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?

Yes/No

Not Applicable; I have no firm convictions either way​

1. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?

No​

1. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?
   Change Policy/Don’t Change

N/A - I think Rome ought to be open to the possibility of change​

1. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?

No - not when Rome does not excommunicate those who do things that are immoral by any Christian standard: if paedophile-enabling bishops can stay as bishops, what moral objection can there be to refraining from excommunicating those who do something not in itself immoral, such as ordaining women ? If Murphy-O’Connor & Law can deceive the laity & allow paedophiles to harm others, why is Milingo excommunicated, & not them also ? Or are Cardinals (or bishops) not subject to Christian moral standards ? If Milingo dserves excommunication, do Law (and others) not deserve something ten times worse, such as public degradation from the priesthood ?​

The Church makes a horrible mess of molestation cases - but let a bishop ordain some women, & BAM ! he’s out.

A possible answer: “But that’s to protect the dignity, & most of all, the validity, of the Sacraments”. Fair enough: so why is Cardinal Cooke being considered for beatification ? Why was he not punished for sponsoring a “Clown Mass” ? And why, in the name of all that’s holy, were the US bishops not punished for permitting Masses to be offered that used invalid matter, & were therefore not even Masses ? That went on for years, despite a letter from Rome forbidding this abuse. How many bishops did Rome punish ? None. So please, spare me the invalidity argument - or let Rome be consistent.

1. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church?

No. If ever it did happen, I don’t think it would change any doctrine or principle - it would have effects in practice, because it would take time to get used to: but if Rome does not mind undertaking major (& numerous) changes such as those required by the Vatican documents that implemented Vatican II, that single major change ceases to be much of a problem. There are problems, but I think they boil to issues of culture; not of faith or revelation.​

If ever it were to happen, it would be essential to make unmistakably clear that such a change was in no a sense a reward for or a capitulation to the utterly unChristian feminism of those who seek to destroy the priesthood, & that the priesthood is in no sense a means for dominating or bullying others, but is a means for serving Christ & serving His People, by being ever more closely conformed to Christ Crucified. That is at the heart of it, just as it is at the heart of marriage, & of all Church authority. Service, suffering, authority & the Cross cannot be separated & be healthy: so if woman want to be priests, they must put aside all fantasies about lording it over others, all that nonsense about being “empowered”.

The relation between the four things just mentioned may be a theological reason for reserving ordination to men; if so, then so be it . Faith in Christ is to be lived - not manipulated, nor used for manipulating others, for that is to make it a lie, & a means of death, rather than of liberation from the power of death.

Thank you for taking your time to fill out this survey, it is much appreciated.

You’re very welcome - happy to oblige ​

 

[FCEGM]

1) Gender Female

2) Age 64

3) What religion are you? Catholic

4) Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men? NO

5) Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy? No

6) Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained? The Church cannot do elsewise than what it already teaches in this regard.

7) Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women? Yes

8) Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church? It will not harm the Church since it will not happen.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Survey on Female Ordination

1. Gender…. Male/Female
2. Age…. Under 18 19-40 41-60 60+
3. What religion are you? Catholic Orthodox Protestant Other
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?
   Yes/No
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?
   Yes/No
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?
   Change Policy/Don’t Change
7. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?
   Yes/No
8. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church?
   
   Thank you for taking your time to fill out this survey, it is much appreciated.

1. male
2. 19-40
3. Catholic
4. NO
5. Yes
6. DON’T CHANGE
7. Yes
8. Yes

 

[augustineguy]

Survey on Female Ordination

1. Gender…. Female
2. Age…. 19-40
3. What religion are you? Catholic
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?
   No
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?
   No
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?
   Don’t Change
7. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?
   Yes
8. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church?
   Yes
   
   Thank you for taking your time to fill out this survey, it is much appreciated.

 

[jlhargus]

Hallo, my name is Peirs and I’ve started this thread for a simple reason. I am a Highschool student and as a requirement to write a Rhetorical research paper for my AP Literature class i have to survey at least twenty five people. I decided that since my topic, which is Should the Catholic Church allow the Ordination of Women, that it was best that i found mostly Catholics to survey, though anyone is more then welcome to fill out the survey. it’s not ment to offend people in any way, it’s just a simple questionnaire, and i hope that a few of you can find it in your hearts to take a few minutes out of your time to answer this simple survey.

                                                                            ~Peirs

Survey on Female Ordination

1. Gender…. Male/Female [Male]
2. Age…. Under 18 19-40 41-60 60+ [65]
3. What religion are you? Catholic Orthodox Protestant Other [Convert to Catholic]
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?
   Yes/No [No]
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy? Yes/No [Yes, have considered]
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?
   Change Policy/Don’t Change [Don’t Change, as the Church has no authority to do so.]
7. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?
   Yes/No [Yes, they have excommunicated themself.]
8. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church? [Yes, as the Church has no authority to do so]
   
   Thank you for taking your time to fill out this survey, it is much appreciated.

 

[kyria]

1. Gender…. Female
2. Age…. 37
3. What religion are you? Catholic
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?
   Definitely not. Priests act in the role of Father. I cannot equate a woman in this role.
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?
   I’ve decided to stay celibate. I made a vow to the Father.
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?
   Don’t Change
7. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?
   Yes
8. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church?

Yes

 

[Victoria2]

1. Sex: Male
2. Age: n/d
3. Religion: Catholic

Not Applicable; I have no firm convictions either way​

1. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?

No​

1. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?
   Change Policy/Don’t Change

N/A - I think Rome ought to be open to the possibility of change​

1. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?

No - not when Rome does not excommunicate those who do things that are immoral by any Christian standard: if paedophile-enabling bishops can stay as bishops, what moral objection can there be to refraining from excommunicating those who do something not in itself immoral, such as ordaining women ? If Murphy-O’Connor & Law can deceive the laity & allow paedophiles to harm others, why is Milingo excommunicated, & not them also ? Or are Cardinals (or bishops) not subject to Christian moral standards ? If Milingo dserves excommunication, do Law (and others) not deserve something ten times worse, such as public degradation from the priesthood ?​

The Church makes a horrible mess of molestation cases - but let a bishop ordain some women, & BAM ! he’s out.

A possible answer: “But that’s to protect the dignity, & most of all, the validity, of the Sacraments”. Fair enough: so why is Cardinal Cooke being considered for beatification ? Why was he not punished for sponsoring a “Clown Mass” ? And why, in the name of all that’s holy, were the US bishops not punished for permitting Masses to be offered that used invalid matter, & were therefore not even Masses ? That went on for years, despite a letter from Rome forbidding this abuse. How many bishops did Rome punish ? None. So please, spare me the invalidity argument - or let Rome be consistent.

No. If ever it did happen, I don’t think it would change any doctrine or principle - it would have effects in practice, because it would take time to get used to: but if Rome does not mind undertaking major (& numerous) changes such as those required by the Vatican documents that implemented Vatican II, that single major change ceases to be much of a problem. There are problems, but I think they boil to issues of culture; not of faith or revelation.​

If ever it were to happen, it would be essential to make unmistakably clear that such a change was in no a sense a reward for or a capitulation to the utterly unChristian feminism of those who seek to destroy the priesthood, & that the priesthood is in no sense a means for dominating or bullying others, but is a means for serving Christ & serving His People, by being ever more closely conformed to Christ Crucified. That is at the heart of it, just as it is at the heart of marriage, & of all Church authority. Service, suffering, authority & the Cross cannot be separated & be healthy: so if woman want to be priests, they must put aside all fantasies about lording it over others, all that nonsense about being “empowered”.

The relation between the four things just mentioned may be a theological reason for reserving ordination to men; if so, then so be it . Faith in Christ is to be lived - not manipulated, nor used for manipulating others, for that is to make it a lie, & a means of death, rather than of liberation from the power of death.

You’re very welcome - happy to oblige ​

 

[Stephen3970]

1. Gender…. Male/
2. Age…. 19-40
3. What religion are you? Protestant (Lutheran)
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?..No
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?..Yes
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?..Don’t Change.
7. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?..Yes
8. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church?..Absolutely.

 

[mercer87]

1. Gender…. Male/
2. Age…. 19-40 (22 to be exact)
3. What religion are you? Roman Catholic
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men? Yes
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy? I’m considering the sacrament, but not celibacy.
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained? Stand firm
7. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women? Any bishop who ordains women breaks away from the Church
8. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church? Yes. The Church clearly states that it has no authority to do so.

 

[Cider]

Since the thread was started 6 months ago, I’m pretty sure the OP has already turned in his school report.

 

[Sonny1954]

1. Gender…. Male
2. Age….55
3. What religion are you? Catholic
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?
   Absolutely. We have the Old Boys’ Club gone to Church
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?
   No
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?
   Yes, the Vatican should change its current policy. It will someday, though not in my lifetime.
7. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?
   Of course not
8. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church?

No

 

[centurionguard]

Survey on Female Ordination

1. Gender…. Male/Female?
   MALE
2. Age…. Under 18 19-40 41-60 60+
   Age 52
3. What religion are you? Catholic Orthodox Protestant Other
   ROMAN CATHOLIC
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?
   Yes/No
   ABSOLUTELY NO
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?
   Yes/No
   NO
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?
   Change Policy/Don’t Change
   ONLY MEN SHOULD BE ORDAINED. THE VATICAN CANNOT CHANGE WHAT JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOR INSTITUTED. WHO IS IT THAT HAS THE WISDOM TO QUESTION WHAT THE SON OF GOD INSTITUTED AND THE FACT THAT HE CHOSE MEN INTO THE PRIESTHOOD. IF PEOPLE BELIEVE JESUS CHOSE MEN INTO THE PRIESTHOOD BASED UPON ON WHIMSICAL HUMAN INTELLECT THERE MISSING THE POINT. IN THE THIRTY-THREE YEARS JESUS WAS ON EARTH HIS INTELLECT WAS FAR SUPERIOR TO ANY HUMAN BEING (“HE WAS GOD”) IN THE MYSTERY OF THE HOLY TRINITY. JESUS (“GOD”) HAS HIS OWN REASONS WHY HE CHOSE MEN INTO THE PRIESTHOOD WHICH WAS (“NOT”) TO DOWNPLAY THE SPECIAL ROLE OF WOMEN-HOOD.
7. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?
   Yes/No
   EXCOMMUNICATION FOR ALL CLERGY INVOLVED IN THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN
8. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church?
   YES & GIVEN THE FACT THAT A CRISIS OF FAITH AND TRUTH IS ALREADY PRESENT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, IT IS FALSE TO BELIEVE THAT (“ORDINATION OF WOMEN”) INTO THE CHURCH WOULD SOLVE ANY CRISIS.

 

[Jason_1977]

Survey on Female Ordination

1. MALE
2. Age…32
3. What religion are you? Catholic
4. Do you believe the Sacrament of Ordination, also known as the Sacrament of Priesthood, should include women and not only men?
   NO
5. Are you or have you ever considered taking the sacrament of ordination, or a vow of celibacy?
   YES
6. Do you believe that the Vatican should change its policy on Ordination, or that the Vatican should continue to stand firm in its belief that only men should be Ordained?

Don’t Change

1. Do you feel it is right to excommunicate anyone who is involved in the “Ordination of Women?
   Yes
2. Do you believe that the Ordination of Women will harm the Catholic Church?
   Let’s look at this question. That’s like my mother saying, would it kill you to clean your own room? THIS is a loaded question. I’m willing to bet that you’re weighing responses up against those willing to take the vow of celibacy, etc. Here’s how we see it. Jesus’ apostles were all men. None of them were women. He chose men to go out & minister. Hence, men are priests. If there were females doing the same as peter, paul, john, mark, luke, judas, etc, etc, etc, then I’m sure there would be just as many females in the priesthood. But that isn’t the case, so it isnt the case! My take on it is, you can re-write a law, you can re-write a constitution, you can amend laws, you can amend teachings, but who is going to re-write scripture? Who is going to re-write the Word? Part of co-existence is learning to understan one another. Catholics have to co-exist with gay people. I may not like what they do behind closed doors, but at the same time, I have no problem shaking hands with them or sitting next to them in or out of church. So, if I can accept them as people, then they should accept us and not try to re-write our faith. Same for any group, pro-choice, any group. I’m not going to go into a tee-pee full of American Indians smoking peyote & “communing w. the great spirit” tell them they’re a bunch of hippes & they’re worshipping false Gods, am I? That’s wrong & unjust & not to mention unconstitutional. So as I respect their faith, so should others respect ours. It’s 2000 years old. Society has changed & developed. Religion has for the most part stayed the same. People don’t have to like it. They should at a minimum, respect it.

 

[Dale_M]

It might be worth noting that this thread is 8 months old, and the person who started it, a high school student working on a class project, hasn’t visited CAF in the past 7 months.

In other words, the survey is over. I’m not trying to stop anyone from voicing their opinion, just wanted to let people know that their opinions aren’t being collected and analyzed.

 

[centurionguard]

It might be worth noting that this thread is 8 months old, and the person who started it, a high school student working on a class project, hasn’t visited CAF in the past 7 months.

In other words, the survey is over. I’m not trying to stop anyone from voicing their opinion, just wanted to let people know that their opinions aren’t being collected and analyzed.

Maybe the survey is outdated as you said. But I think the question itself is still relevant.
Obviously; there are many Catholics who approach this question as being open to liberal debate thinking Ordination should be open to any Catholic.

Some would argue that Jesus instituted men into the priesthood (“His Apostles”) because it was Jewish custom to do so. I don’t buy that kind of secular human rational.
The rational of Jesus the Son of Almighty God was far above any human estimation.

Much that is seen in opposition to ONLY MEN being Priest is being circumvented by Catholic feminist groups. Why should any devout Catholic go against the grain of what Jesus Himself instituted?

Perhaps in a way this argument is pointless.

 

[surritter]

Just an observation about some of the comments posted here…

We have to be careful when saying that “Jesus chose only women to be Apostles, and we can’t change that.”

This is true, but I say we must be careful because there are many things Jesus did that we can change and have changed.

Jesus was baptized in the Jordan. Does that mean new Christians can’t be baptized in a font at our parish? Of course not.

I hear this erroneous thinking when dialoging with my relatives in the Church of Christ. They say that the Bible gives no evidence of the Apostles using musical instruments in their Sunday worship, so they say it is sinful for Catholics to use an organ or piano. (Of course, I come back and say that the Apostles didn’t use electricity either, so why does the Church of Christ have electric lights? )

So the real objective is not to blindly imitate everything Jesus did, but to listen to the authority he established: the Apostles and their successors. These successors realize that women’s ordination is impossible because a priest is configured to Christ to be married to the Church and bring about new life.

 

[Lepanto]

It might be worth noting that this thread is 8 months old, and the person who started it, a high school student working on a class project, hasn’t visited CAF in the past 7 months.

In other words, the survey is over. I’m not trying to stop anyone from voicing their opinion, just wanted to let people know that their opinions aren’t being collected and analyzed.

Maybe the kid flunked his class and has to repeat it.

 

[Lepanto]

Just an observation about some of the comments posted here…

We have to be careful when saying that “Jesus chose only women to be Apostles, and we can’t change that.”

This is true, but I say we must be careful because there are many things Jesus did that we can change and have changed.

Jesus was baptized in the Jordan. Does that mean new Christians can’t be baptized in a font at our parish? Of course not.

The fact that the Second Person of the Trinity became a male when He took on a human nature talks to His substance (or essence), not to a matter of accident (or incidentals). Likewise, the fact that Jesus chose twelve males is a matter of essence (or more specifically “maleness”).

Jesus could have been baptized with any water from anywhere. That is a matter of accident, not of substance.

In other words, neither Jesus nor the apostles could have been Jesus or the apostles had they not been male when they walked the earth. Had they not been male, they would have been other people, because their substance (essence) would have been different. But the matter regarding baptism in the Jordan is simply an incidental, or accidental matter. The baptism would have been valid anywhere else. Location is merely a matter of accident, and has no bearing on essence.

Look here:

aquinasonline.com/Topics/substacc.html

 

[surritter]

Interesting point about substance and accident. I know those terms from the theology about the Eucharist, but does it always translate to every area of Catholic belief? I read the link to Aquinas’s definition, and it helps a little.

Who decides what things are defined as substance vs. accidents? Could the fact that Jesus was Jewish could be construed as “substance”? Being Jewish was very important in salvation history. And while the doors of salvation are now open to every race, some might try to say that the priesthood should be reserved to those of Jewish ancestry. (Just playing devil’s advocate here.)

 

[centurionguard]

The fact that the Second Person of the Trinity became a male when He took on a human nature talks to His substance (or essence), not to a matter of accident (or incidentals). Likewise, the fact that Jesus chose twelve males is a matter of essence (or more specifically “maleness”).

Jesus could have been baptized with any water from anywhere. That is a matter of accident, not of substance.

In other words, neither Jesus nor the apostles could have been Jesus or the apostles had they not been male when they walked the earth. Had they not been male, they would have been other people, because their substance (essence) would have been different. But the matter regarding baptism in the Jordan is simply an incidental, or accidental matter. The baptism would have been valid anywhere else. Location is merely a matter of accident, and has no bearing on essence.

Look here:

aquinasonline.com/Topics/substacc.html

n other words, neither Jesus nor the apostles could have been Jesus or the apostles had they not been male when they walked the earth. Had they not been male, they would have been other people, because their substance (essence) would have been different. But the matter regarding baptism in the Jordan is simply an incidental, or accidental matter. The baptism would have been valid anywhere else. Location is merely a matter of accident, and has no bearing on essence.

Look here:

aquinasonline.com/Topics/substacc.html

Interesting discussion. But my only thoughts on this is that even though Jesus (“in a sense”) was bound in time through His human birth. Everything leading up to the historical
relevance of Jesus meeting John the Baptist in the Jordon was predestined (“Out of Time”)
even before our Solar System was formed billions of years ago. God being the Creator in the Mystery of the Holy Trinity is not bound by concept of Time even though Jesus the Son of God through His Birth subjected Himself to time in His Redemptive mission to save human souls.
This leaves me puzzled as to how the meeting of Jesus being in the Jordon or anywhere during His human life at any given moment could be anything but incidental or accidental?