Women's Ordination Heresy?

[vern_humphrey]

And what if she turns into a wonderful servant of God as an Episcopal priest, increases her flock, ensures the word of God is heard and understood by all, and brings many closer to God through her actions?

You are making my point for me – you are now defending heresy as a good thing!

You think God is going to condemn for her for that? Highly doubtful.

Heresy and leading others into heresy is no longer a sin in your book?

Its obvious, predjudice against other Christian denominations is still alive and well, and unfortunately always will be.

Ah, the old “Catholic morality is prejudice” ploy.

Very sad. BTW, the reverse is true as well, many Protestants despise Catholics, and call us heretics. Equally sad. We (mankind) are a sinful bunch, aren’t we?

And your point is what? That the Catholic Church is not the True Church? That we are not morally obliged to folloow the Truth?

 

[mikew262]

You are making my point for me – you are now defending heresy as a good

 

[vern_humphrey]

vern humphrey;2025540:

Anybody who preaches the gospel of Christ, can’t be a bad thing in my mind. God is the final judge, not you, me, the Church, or anybody else.

They are Christians. I suspect many will reach heaven before many of us Catholics.

If thats how you want to look at it. I look at as just plain sad. BTW, I don’t see you denying it. Clever little quips and smiley faces doesn’t change anything. BTW, I’m talking individuals, not the Church as a whole. Even the Church recognizes the good in other Christian denominations.

QUOTE]

I look at the Catholic Church as the primary denomination and leader of Christianity. It is how I practice my Christian faith. I do not denounce, condemn, or judge

(at least I try not too) other Christians who may worship God in different way. Those who do, I believe, may some explaining to do when they finally come before God.

My, how sanctimonious and self-sanctified you are.

The Church does not consider those born in a Protestant tradition to be guilty of heresy, but it most certainly does consider a Catholic who leaves the Church for such a religion to be a heretic. And a priest who leads his flock into heresy does indeed sin.

 

[mikew262]

mikew262;2025608:

My, how sanctimonious and self-sanctified you are.

I’m not sure what you are trying to say here, but I’m sure it’s some form of unnecessary sarcasm, something you seem to an expert at. By chance, if I’m wrong, then my apologies.

The Church does not consider those born in a Protestant tradition to be guilty of heresy, but it most certainly does consider a Catholic who leaves the Church for such a religion to be a heretic. And a priest who leads his flock into heresy does indeed sin

.

I’ll let God be the judge.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’ll let God be the judge.

And to heck with what the Catholic Church and its Magisterium say, eh?

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

Heh…that’s what you call a cop-out, like a politician saying that he left his speech in his other coat. I’m sure she’s come across quite a few progressive or liberation theology historians/writers/pseudo-theologians that make the case for female ordination on some heretical sect or another, and then opine that the Church will someday see the light. The Church is the light and has the Truth and it will never change.

Never say never…the church has changed a number of things over the last 2007 years…how many catholics would there be today if not for vatican 2 ??? There are many catholics actually hoping for vatican 3 ! What would you do if a liberal pope was elected and declared that priests can now marry ? Remember nowhere in the bible does it categorically state that a priest may not marry…some of the disciples were married ! I for one would remain a catholic…my faith is far stronger than a mere hiccup.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Never say never…the church has changed a number of things over the last 2007 years…how many catholics would there be today if not for vatican 2 ??? There are many catholics actually hoping for vatican 3 ! What would you do if a liberal pope was elected and declared that priests can now marry ? Remember nowhere in the bible does it categorically state that a priest may not marry…some of the disciples were married ! I for one would remain a catholic…my faith is far stronger than a mere hiccup.

Celebacy is a mere discipline – it has no theological basis, and no one with authority in the Church ever said it did. In fact, we do have married Catholic priests.

However, John Paul the Great said the Church has no authority to ordain women, and “this is to be accepted definitively by all the faithful.”

The matter is closed.

 

[mikew262]

And to heck with what the Catholic Church and its Magisterium say, eh?

I wouldn’t say the heck with them, but I’m not convinced they are necessarily right in all matters either.

Keep in mind, they aren’t the final judge now are they?

 

[mikew262]

Celebacy is a mere discipline – it has no theological basis, and no one with authority in the Church ever said it did. In fact, we do have married Catholic priests.

However, John Paul the Great said the Church has no authority to ordain women, and “this is to be accepted definitively by all the faithful.”

The matter is closed.

Umm, you don’t mind if other people still want discuss it do you?

 

[El_camino]

Here are my own thoughts on this.

As a progressive Catholic, this is one of the few areas where I am personally in disagreement with the Church. I do not buy any of the arguements against womens ordination that the Church has put forward and this area has always been a struggle to me. Nonetheless, even though I may personally support womens ordination, that does not make me OBJECTIVELY right on the matter. I could be wrong and the Church f\could be right, or the reverse could just as easily happen when I ask God when I die (which I fully intend to do). I have always held that while I could be wrong, and while I may personally support womens ordination (and would personally love to see the Church change on the issue), I refuse to speak out against the Church. She could be right at the end of the day, and I do not hold my position as objective. it is merely an opinion, as fallable as anyone elses. Therefore, though I remain in personal, quiet support of the issue, I also give it up to God and let him deal with it with me when he will, be that at my death or when i am alive.

With that said, would I be considered a heretic in the Church’s eyes?

YES it would be heretical, if you are fully aware that, as Catholic Christian, you cannot question an infallible pronouncement of the Church…namely, that women cannot be ordained… To me it sounds heretical when you say:

I could be wrong and the Church f\could be right, or the reverse could just as easily happen

No… the reverse could not happen, if it did, our foundation of faith would topple, not because women ordination in itself, but because if the Church, who has transmitted us the truth through the centuries, when it comes to INFALLIBLE pronouncements, such as this one, were to be WRONG on something, how can we be sure that she is not wrong on some other issues that is to be believed infallible: Eg. Trinity, virgin birth of Christ, resurrection of Christ, the canon of Scripture, Salvation by Grace, etc. etc.

Again, our foundation of faith would topple for not being sure what the truth is.

Blessings,

E.C.

 

[El_camino]

vern humphrey;2025540:

Anybody who preaches the gospel of Christ, can’t be a bad thing in my mind. God is the final judge, not you, me, the Church, or anybody else.

Define the Gospel!! personally I do no think that Episcopelian Priests, whether women or men, preach the TRUE Gospel… A religion that is starting to accept SIN as a good thing (i.e., acceptance of homosexuality and among other sins)

Blessings,

E.C.

 

[mikew262]

mikew262;2025608:

Define the Gospel!! personally I do no think that Episcopelian Priests, whether women or men, preach the TRUE Gospel… A religion that is starting to accept SIN as a good thing (i.e., acceptance of homosexuality and among other sins)

Blessings,

E.C.

Well, I’m Catholic, so hopefully we have an Episcopelian (sp?) come online and refute that. However, I suspect you are off base on this one.

Keep in mind, there are many who think the CC doesn’t preach the true gospel. Try going to a non-catholic forum, its full of that nonsense.

BTW, bashing another denomination doesn’t solve anything. They are your fellow Christians, keep that in mind.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I wouldn’t say the heck with them, but I’m not convinced they are necessarily right in all matters either.

Keep in mind, they aren’t the final judge now are they?

Of course not. The Church does not have the power to loose and bind. The keys to the kingdom were not given to Peter to pass on to his successors. The Magisterium does not really exist, and there is no khrisma of infallibility.

Unless, of course, you’re Catholic.

 

[mikew262]

.

Again, our foundation of faith would topple for not being sure what the truth is.

Blessings,

E.C.

Maybe yours would topple, not mine.

 

[vern_humphrey]

mikew262;2025608:

Define the Gospel!! personally I do no think that Episcopelian Priests, whether women or men, preach the TRUE Gospel… A religion that is starting to accept SIN as a good thing (i.e., acceptance of homosexuality and among other sins)

Blessings,

E.C.

I’d like to point out that in your post there was a mixup – you aren’t responding to what I said ,but to what Mikew262 said. I accept the Church’s teaching that Protestatism is a heresy.

 

[Cranch]

Never say never…the church has changed a number of things over the last 2007 years…how many catholics would there be today if not for vatican 2 ??? There are many catholics actually hoping for vatican 3 ! What would you do if a liberal pope was elected and declared that priests can now marry ? Remember nowhere in the bible does it categorically state that a priest may not marry…some of the disciples were married ! I for one would remain a catholic…my faith is far stronger than a mere hiccup.

Here’s where Vatican III will get us: Link You’ll find it mentioned about halfway down.

Celebacy is a mere discipline – it has no theological basis, and no one with authority in the Church ever said it did. In fact, we do have married Catholic priests.

And the point should also be made that our married priests are already-married clergy who converted to Catholicism. Even in the Eastern Orthodox Church where priests can be married, this is not allowed after ordination and never has been as far as I know.

However, John Paul the Great said the Church has no authority to ordain women, and “this is to be accepted definitively by all the faithful.”

The matter is closed.

Funny how when it comes to any number of topics, the Pope and/or Vatican II is the last word until, well…about that, not so much!

 

[mikew262]

Of course not. The Church does not have the power to loose and bind. The keys to the kingdom were not given to Peter to pass on to his successors. The Magisterium does not really exist, and there is no khrisma of infallibility.

Unless, of course, you’re Catholic.

Vern, you’re something else. All I can do is shake my head and chuckle.

A little off thread here, but answer me this: Do you see any good at all in the other non-catholic Christian denominations? Do you think God extends his blessings at all to them?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Vern, you’re something else. All I can do is shake my head and chuckle.

A little off thread here, but answer me this: Do you see any good at all in the other non-catholic Christian denominations? Do you think God extends his blessings at all to them?

Mike?

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, **one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up **in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

(My emphasis.)

Protestantism is a heresy. Persons born into Protestant traditions do not sin by remaining in them. Catholics who leave the Church for a Protestant church, however, are another matter. A priest who leads his flock out of the Church commits a very grave sin.

 

[mikew262]

El_camino;2026143:

I accept the Church’s teaching that Protestatism is a heresy.

The Church really does not say that anymore. They refer to them as “seperated brethen”. While the Church still consider some teachings of Protestantism as heresy, they are not referred to as heretics, thats old school, pre-Vatican II talk.

 

[vern_humphrey]

vern humphrey;2026192:

The Church really does not say that anymore. They refer to them as “seperated brethen”. While the Church still consider some teachings of Protestantism as heresy, they are not referred to as heretics, thats old school, pre-Vatican II talk.

The Church distinguishes between Protestants, Protestantism, and those who leave the Church for a Protestant church.

The former, being brought up in their tradition, are not heretics:

However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up

Protestantism, per se, however is a heresy.

And Catholics who leave the Church for a Protestant church do sin thereby.