women's ordination

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What seems to be ignored is that there are lots of women working within the Catholic church who have a strong sense of calling to Priesthood. That they don’t post openly here, and that they don’t answer questions like Fergal’s is not because they don’t have a strong argument, but because it hurts. It’s painful. To love someone, and to have them deny, or refuse to acknowledge, or to openly despise or reject something that’s integral to who you are. You’re hardly going to expose that in a place where, with all due respect, the overriding atmosphere is not always one of love, concern, gentleness or respect (regardless of what Peter wrote in his letters about giving your reasons with gentleness and respect). They’re there, I know many, but when they get greeted with such hostitlity when they seek to express themselves, they quickly learn to pour their hearts out only to God, and to wise and gentle spiritual mentors. Why, if they hated the Church, would so many choose to stay, despite the pain? Why would the risk such vitriol and mockery, if they didn’t believe what they feel has come from God. Maybe you believe they’re wrong, but please don’t insult them by claiming they don’t earnestly love God or the church.
Many people want what they cannot have – I can recall a TV program where a pudgy man said, “I’d like to have a washboard stomach – but it ain’t gonna happen.”
And I say, again, that Jesus chose to operate within some historical/cultural restrictions (remember, Jesus worked in Jewish tradition, not in Roman tradition, even though he was in contact with it), but that did not prevent later disciples operating beyond those restrictions. How do we decide which ones were to be altered, and which were not?
You don’t know how the Catholic Church makes decisions?

Study how this one was made – plenty of material has been posted on this thread.
 
What seems to be ignored is that there are lots of women working within the Catholic church who have a strong sense of calling to Priesthood. That they don’t post openly here, and that they don’t answer questions like Fergal’s is not because they don’t have a strong argument, but because it hurts. It’s painful. To love someone, and to have them deny, or refuse to acknowledge, or to openly despise or reject something that’s integral to who you are. You’re hardly going to expose that in a place where, with all due respect, the overriding atmosphere is not always one of love, concern, gentleness or respect (regardless of what Peter wrote in his letters about giving your reasons with gentleness and respect). They’re there, I know many, but when they get greeted with such hostitlity when they seek to express themselves, they quickly learn to pour their hearts out only to God, and to wise and gentle spiritual mentors. Why, if they hated the Church, would so many choose to stay, despite the pain? Why would the risk such vitriol and mockery, if they didn’t believe what they feel has come from God. Maybe you believe they’re wrong, but please don’t insult them by claiming they don’t earnestly love God or the church.

I’ll get back to you on the historical references. I have them, but I don’t have access to the books right now.

And I say, again, that Jesus chose to operate within some historical/cultural restrictions (remember, Jesus worked in Jewish tradition, not in Roman tradition, even though he was in contact with it), but that did not prevent later disciples operating beyond those restrictions. How do we decide which ones were to be altered, and which were not?
 
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contramundum7:
i’m replying to another of your posts where you say that somewhere in scripture a woman’s testimony was believed, using that as 1 reason as to why women should be accepted into the priesthood. For one thing, women ARE “priest, prophet & king” when baptized, just as males are. They just aren’t ministerial priests…(and neither are most males. Most people, of either sex, are called to the vocation of marriage). women’s ordination can never be. the Church has spoken & will not change its mind - just as it hasn’t and wont change its mind on birth control & other issues… So, frankly, i wish people would get on with the things in the Church that they CAN and definitely SHOULD try to change…
for another thing, just because someone’s testimony is convincing & even when it leads 2 someone’s conversion…doesn’t, in and of itself, mean he/she is just as qualified for (any given) position of authority as someone else (who is qualified)…
Like i said, i think we should all get to work trying to change the things in the church that CAN be changed…
“God grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage to accept the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.” (St. Bernard??)
 
I recall recently when this question was asked on Catholic Answers Live, it was Karl Keating who answered with a simple analogy: should men protest that only women can bear children and should men protest that they cannot become nuns? Why is it that there are no men protesting these 2 things? (and I add, could men consider our ineligibility in these 2 areas an abuse?)

The priesthood is a fatherly role. This role is visible and has immediate meaning for all people of all ages (even the very young).

The church is a household. It is based on the traditional model of a family with the father as spiritual and temporal leader. Our Father in Heaven is truly a Father in the ultimate sense and we Christians are truly/literally children through, with and in Christ Jesus.

Gender was created by God and it is good. When we project our own designs against God’s we wreck things. Men and women are not interchangeable. This is very basic stuff. Those who believe contrary are misled.

An all male priesthood, therefore, does not make women less important in any way. Women (and also men) who are unaware of their own dignity are deprived of truth. Men (and also women) who abuse any authority they have do damage to the body of Christ.
 
I recall recently when this question was asked on Catholic Answers Live, it was Karl Keating who answered with a simple analogy: should men protest that only women can bear children and should men protest that they cannot become nuns? Why is it that there are no men protesting these 2 things? (and I add, could men consider our ineligibility in these 2 areas an abuse?)

The priesthood is a fatherly role. This role is visible and has immediate meaning for all people of all ages (even the very young).

The church is a household. It is based on the traditional model of a family with the father as spiritual and temporal leader. Our Father in Heaven is truly a Father in the ultimate sense and we Christians are truly/literally children through, with and in Christ Jesus.

Gender was created by God and it is good. When we project our own designs against God’s we wreck things. Men and women are not interchangeable. This is very basic stuff. Those who believe contrary are misled.

An all male priesthood, therefore, does not make women less important in any way. Women (and also men) who are unaware of their own dignity are deprived of truth. Men (and also women) who abuse any authority they have do damage to the body of Christ.
Don’t have time to talk, but good point about men not whining to be let into the convent. Maybe it is true after all, that men are more logical than women… (only half kidding…)
 
What seems to be ignored is that there are lots of women working within the Catholic church who have a strong sense of calling to Priesthood. That they don’t post openly here, and that they don’t answer questions like Fergal’s is not because they don’t have a strong argument, but because it hurts. It’s painful. To love someone, and to have them deny, or refuse to acknowledge, or to openly despise or reject something that’s integral to who you are. You’re hardly going to expose that in a place where, with all due respect, the overriding atmosphere is not always one of love, concern, gentleness or respect (regardless of what Peter wrote in his letters about giving your reasons with gentleness and respect). They’re there, I know many, but when they get greeted with such hostitlity when they seek to express themselves, they quickly learn to pour their hearts out only to God, and to wise and gentle spiritual mentors. Why, if they hated the Church, would so many choose to stay, despite the pain? Why would the risk such vitriol and mockery, if they didn’t believe what they feel has come from God. Maybe you believe they’re wrong, but please don’t insult them by claiming they don’t earnestly love God or the church.

I’ll get back to you on the historical references. I have them, but I don’t have access to the books right now.

And I say, again, that Jesus chose to operate within some historical/cultural restrictions (remember, Jesus worked in Jewish tradition, not in Roman tradition, even though he was in contact with it), but that did not prevent later disciples operating beyond those restrictions. How do we decide which ones were to be altered, and which were not?
 
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contramundum7:
what do you mean which ones do we alter & which not? Jesus never said anything (that i know of) about women being preachers or apostles… what is there to alter?
 
what do you mean which ones do we alter & which not? Jesus never said anything (that i know of) about women being preachers or apostles… what is there to alter?
One of the most pretentious ideas of Post-Modern Deconstructionism is that we cannot tell good from bad, therefore we must construct new rules by which decisions are made.

Post-Modernists hold, for example, that we cannot really, really tell good poetry from bad – so we should choose poems not for their subject matter or beauty, but for the sex and race of the authors. The slogan of the Post-Modernist is, “Who are we to judge? (I am the judge.)”
 
One big problem that I am seeing in this discussion and in most discussions on Sacramental abuses is that we like to talk too much about rights and not about what the Sacraments are. I know we can all quote the Baltimore Catechism. A Sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by CHRIST to give us grace. The Sacrament itself is instituted by Christ. For the Sacrament to be correct, the matter and form of said Sacrament must be correct.

The Sacrament of Holy Orders, which was given to us by Christ himself, was a Gift that Christ gave to man, calling men to be shepherds and fishers of other men.

The Matter and Form of Holy Orders requires men. Sacraments themselves cannot have the Matter and Form changed.

(Extreme Unction, aka Anointing of the Sick, aka Last Rites, has not changed matter and form, it has simply had some preferred names)
 
One big problem that I am seeing in this discussion and in most discussions on Sacramental abuses is that we like to talk too much about rights and not about what the Sacraments are. I know we can all quote the Baltimore Catechism. A Sacrament is an outward sign, instituted by CHRIST to give us grace. The Sacrament itself is instituted by Christ. For the Sacrament to be correct, the matter and form of said Sacrament must be correct.

The Sacrament of Holy Orders, which was given to us by Christ himself, was a Gift that Christ gave to man, calling men to be shepherds and fishers of other men.

The Matter and Form of Holy Orders requires men. Sacraments themselves cannot have the Matter and Form changed.

(Extreme Unction, aka Anointing of the Sick, aka Last Rites, has not changed matter and form, it has simply had some preferred names)
When we start talking about our “rights,” we are no longer talking about God. We are talking about ourselves, and God is crowded out.

We have no rights vis-a-vis God. Everything we have from him is a gift – a gift we did nothing to earn, and have no claim other than through His grace.
 
People seems to forget that when Ann offered her daughter to the Lord, she stayed at the temple in Jerusalem. When she became a young adult; the High Priests of the Temple in Jerusalem could not allow her to live in the temple or stay near the alter of Lord; a place the they offer lamps etc to the God of Abraham.

Therefore to protect her (Marys) parents offering to God, she has to be safe guarded, not to have sex or give birth. Joseph, a widow was selected by the High Priest to take her. Joseph was to protect her as she was already offered to God as a child. She later gave birth to our Rise Lord. She is the Mother of the Catholic Church.

The High Priest of the Temple could have made her a High Priest, but they did not. It was their tradition not to do so. Catholic Church also follow it’s long Tradition.

Those females that wants to become a Priest, and the Catholic Teaching is too tough for them to accept, it would be better for them to go elsewhere. There is more to it then just making them a Priest. The “Alter of the Lord” is ritual site like it or not. It’s not just an ordinary table in a building.

matt
 
What seems to be ignored is that there are lots of women working within the Catholic church who have a strong sense of calling to Priesthood.
Nothing has been ignored. If God wanted these women who “have a strong sense of calling to Priesthood” and God was actually calling them to the priesthood, He would have created them as men and not as women.
It was stated that the Pope has not “infallibly” defined that women cannot be ordained. However, we must understand that some things are declared infallibly by differnt methods. See this
It states in part
"Universally. This is the most delicate category, which the next section of the paper treats. When the bishops gathered throughout the world have at some time agreed on a matter of divine revelation, dealing with faith or morals, to be held definitively, such agreement constitutes infallible teaching and is irreversible… "
and Pope Paul II in Ordinatio Sacerdotalis states
“…Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone **has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church **and **firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent documents…I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.” **
Sounds pretty infallible to me AND irreversable. In other words, don’t hold your breath.
 
This forum has been excellent. Since the man-only priesthood is settled for the Catholic Church, the next question should be what can we do to heal the women who insist they are deprived, or relegated to ‘second-class’ status.

Ste. Theresa WANTED to be a priest. She also WANTED to go into a convent prior to the age of admission… She repeatedly petitioned the Holy Father and was refused. When she finally reached the age of reasonable consent, she DID go into a convent and LOOK AT THE LEGACY OF CLOSE ATTENTION BY CHRIST TO EVERYONES’ PEITIONS STE. THERESA INTERVENTION REAPS. God’s plan for Ste. Teresa was far greater than anything she imagined. She is a Doctor of the Church. She did NOT need to be a man. God caused her life to rise to the level of far more impact.

These posts have been so wonderful. love, maureen
 
I’ve realised that you can only quote from one post at a time, so I’ll try to summarise the arguments, and make this a very long post!
  1. ‘A feeling doesn’t mean something is deserved’
    Absolutely! But there is an argument (you may not agree with it, but there’s still and argument) that there is Biblical and historical precedent and the gifting of women which may confirm the feeling. No-one deserves priesthood - not even men - they have the honour of responding to a God given call.
  2. The historical/cultural context - Jesus didn’t choose women to be among the 12
    My point is why does the church ordain White/ Western/ non-Jewish/non-circumcised/blind/disabled/over the age of 30 men, when none of thse were respresented in the orignal 12? Let’s remember that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah and fulfillment of Jewish scripture and prophecy. The 12 represented the 12 tribes of Israel (in the same way that it seems clear that Jesus understood himself in sacrificial position at the Last Supper, fulfilling the giving of the Passover) - Jesus was radical but he DID keep an eye on fulfilling, and being seen to fulfil the Jewish tradition. The opening of the coventant to the Gentiles blew open that tradition, causing Paul to write ‘there is neither Jew no Greek, slave nor free, male nor female’. The new covenant replaced the old covenant and it’s restrictions on salvation and, I would argue, priesthood.
  3. Posts here are not particularly hateful
    In terms of posts being hateful, some certainly verge on the unkind, but I was speaking more about what I’ve seen on the ground - I’ve known women who’ve been spat on for even daring so suggest ordination of women. Such a woman would not willingly open herself to people again, in any forum, even if the faithful should be ‘accorded a lawful freedom of inquiry, freedom of thought and freedom of expression’ according to Canon Law.
  4. Women who argue for priesthood dislike being women
    I simply don’t see this in practice - they celebrate being women. Many gifts regarded as feminine (though obviously not restricted to women) - love, care, compassion - and wonderfully suited for priesthood.
  5. The lack of historical precedent
    There’s a huge volume of material on this. I’ll give a brief summary, but there’s much more detail on the web and in a fantastic book I have lent to someone, and can’t remember the name of!
  • Acts. Philip had three daughters who were preachers (and it seems this role involved leading local fellowships, therefore would have included breaking of bread).
  • Romans, the last chapter, verse 7, two people, Andronicus and Junia (Junia is a woman - but you need to go to the Greek - some translators have changed her name - particularly evangelical Protestant translations) are referred to as “fellow apostles,” which in the life of the early church referred to obvious leadership of a church.
  • Early Church - there are numerous deacons referred to in church history until the 9th century. Diaconate was an ordained and sacramental position - though not, I accept necessarily Eucharistic. However women were being ordained for roles including teaching, which contradicts the argument that there is no precedent for ordination of women - at least to the diaconate. A few examples - Olympias, ordained by Bishop Nektarios or Theodora of Gaul whose tomb was inscribed “Here rests in peace and of good remembrance Theodora the deaconess who lived about 48 years and died on 22 July 539.” There are dozens more - check the web for records.
    In terms of the official title ‘Presbyter’ - which, in the Early Church documentation is the one who conducted Eucharist - there are women referred to in this way - I’ve seen photographs of inscriptions from graves in the 4th century, from Southern Italy and Turkey which refer to women and use the female form of Presbyter. Artwork from the Catacombs also shows women in the celebration of Eucharist. It seems to have been relatively common practice until the 5th century at least, at which point there are a number of letters from various bishops condemning it. But, it seems, they wouldn’t have been written, had it not been practice until that point. On whether the bishops were right, we’ll have to agree to disagree! But that women were preaching and acting as ordained deacons has extremely strong historical evidence.
 
  1. Men don’t protest that the can’t be nuns/mothers.
    This strikes me as an odd argument. I’ve never heard a woman complaining that she can’t be a monk or biologically father a child! Men can be monks or priests. Women can be nuns but not priests. (that seems logical to me, but then I an illogical woman!). The argument is that exclusion exists without good reason, and in the face that women, in terms of gifting, are gifted in such a way that they could act as ordained ministers.
  2. Jesus was a man, therefore only men can represent him as priests.
    Jesus was a circumcised, Arabic Jew, under 35. Therefore only circumcised Arabic Jews under 35 can be ordained. The logic doesn’t follow.
  3. Women do not have the right to be priests
    Absolutely. I think women who claim a call to priesthood would agree. It’s about following conscience and what you believe to be the voice of God - like I said earlier, no-one has the right to be priest. But everyone has a resonsibility to follow their conscience, and what they believe God is asking them to do.
Apologies for such a long post. I think I’m unlikely to continue the discussion here, simply because I don’t have the time. I’m also trying, as one person, to field arguments from several people, and it’s hard to keep up timewise! I simply wanted to state that there is another argument, though I realise the vast majority of people here will strongly disagree with me. Surveys show, though, that the majority of people attending Catholic churches on a Sunday morning in the U.S. are in favour of the ordination of women, and I guess it’s worth considering their arguments, at least to understand them.

I thoroughly appreciate that you will disagree with me, and think I am stubbornly refusing to accept the will of God. But I assure you, I love God with all my heart - I just seem to have a different understanding of His will than you have.

Let’s celebrate what we share - the wonderful, beautiful love of God, His beauty, his majesty, his tender love for his children. That’s a lot more important and worth a whole lot more than what divides us!
 
The argument is that exclusion exists without good reason, and in the face that women, in terms of gifting, are gifted in such a way that they could act as ordained ministers. . .
It is a particularly modern and secular attitude to reduce life to functions and not to see the depths of nature, be it of the creation or of human nature.

No surprise if this spills over to the Mysteries of the Church and conflicts with them. When that happens, the person can realize the conflict of visions and adjust their own to the divinely revealed one and so be corrected by God’s view of things from one’s own erroneous assumptions and judgments. This is one of the many ways the Church saves us from ourselves. Protestantism, otoh, believes that individual judgment of the Church is superior and ends up in deep error which has inevitable consequences for human life down the road, as the modern functional individualism which destroys communion and ravages nature attests to when the inevitable secularism results and has full sway. Of course, it takes time to see all the consequences. Denial of a deeper level of existence below functions is quite secular.
  1. Jesus was a man, therefore only men can represent him as priests.
    Jesus was a circumcised, Arabic Jew, under 35. Therefore only circumcised Arabic Jews under 35 can be ordained. The logic doesn’t follow
Yes, your response is one that can be anticipated. Gender cannot be lumped into the same category as nationality or race. If I, who am Caucasian, woke up black, I would still essentially be the same person. If I woke up a man, however, I would not be. More separates men and women than simply our sexual organs. Our bodies, our hormones, our very minds are effected by our gender. Gender permeates to the deepest part of our identity, in a way that no other personal characteristic does.

Remember, Jesus did not simply become human, He became a male human. To ordain women priests would be to reduce the Incarnation to “Jesus became human”, weakening its theology. Again, this is not to say that men are better or superior to women - we are certainly equal in dignity - but we cannot accept the fallacious idea of modern radical feminism that says there are no differences between men and women. There are two sexes, not one.

Further, suggesting that whether a priest is a man or a woman is a superficial question implies being a man or a woman is a superficial difference with regard to the Incarnation of God, and that implies being a man or a woman is a superficial difference as such. But such is a superficial understanding of human nature, the Incarnation, and so the symbolism of the Sacrament of Holy Orders, for the Church considers it a very deep question as part of Divine Revelation.

This really gets to the root of the problem, as proponents of priestesses think (as you have done) to point to the difference in ethnicity in the ordained as a reason to overcome the admitted Tradition of ordaining only males, namely that Our Lord chose only Jews as Apostles, but the Church did not stick to that, likewise. . .etc.

The Church is teaching, otc, that the difference between being a man or a woman goes to the heart of the Divinely-revealed Mystery of the Incarnation of God as a Man, or to put it in reverse, that the basic Mystery of the Incarnation is necessarily connected in fact with Our Lord choosing only men to be Apostles (as opposed to the ethnic difference of Jew/non-Jew) since the Twelve are to be icons or living images of this Man Jesus in being His priests. That distinction is not important for Baptism or Confirmation, but it is for Holy Orders.

continued. . .
 
  1. Women do not have the right to be priests
    Absolutely. I think women who claim a call to priesthood would agree. It’s about following conscience and what you believe to be the voice of God - like I said earlier, no-one has the right to be priest. But everyone has a resonsibility to follow their conscience, and what they believe God is asking them to do.
Conscience is not what we believe, think, feel is right and wrong, but what we think God thinks is right or wrong, and the two are not always the same. One must seek God’s view of things, i.e., be formed by the objective Mind of God. For that one must ask the Church, the mouthpiece of Christ: “He who hears you hears Me.” Just consulting ourselves and what we feel and think is not enough. So God will fault the person who could have found out His Will and didn’t - a sin of omission.

But the case of ordination is more explicit than that, since the Church has authoritatively promulgated anew the Apostolic Tradition of ordaining only men. So it is virtually impossible not to know that Christ’s Church teaches that Christ wants only men to be priests. Thus when one finds out that the Church teaches the contrary to what one personally thinks or feels, that is a direct conflict on a point of doctrine. God will therefore hold the person responsible for choosing his own mind to the Mind of the Church, which is the Mind of Christ.

Even should a person be honestly doubtful (no longer possible after '94), the person ought to give the Church’s view the greater weight and not one’s own tendency, since the Church is in the position of authority to better know than the individual at odds with her teaching.

This is also true of moral teachings, e.g., contraception, abortion, homosexuality, divorce and remarriage, fornication. Those individual Catholics who find themselves at odds with the known teaching of God in the Church of God must conform their judgments to the known Mind of Christ expressed in the Church’s teaching on morals, even when the reasons for the teaching don’t make sense to those who don’t see the point, since the Church is in a position to know and judge and they are not. That is because the Church has been given Divine authority to judge and promulgate, and the individual has not been so given these things.

One can deny the authority of the Church to teach so as to bind one’s own thinking and beliefs only by sacrificing being a Catholic; at that moment one becomes a Protestant.

Again, personal feelings and opinions which run contrary to the guidance of the Church are not “conscience” and are not valid as guides. Rejection of the Teaching of the Church is not acceptable. A person who makes no effort to come into understanding of the Teachings has a “vincible” conscience and is culpable for not understanding and for not obeying. Withholding assent to the Teachings of the Church is permissible only for those who have the competence (educated information and Church-recognized authority) to be making such judgments; is valid only for themselves; and never permits dissent.

A well-formed conscience must always be obeyed; but that conscience must be formed in accord with the Teaching Church. Failure to form conscience in according with the Teaching Church is an ill-formed conscience and possessing such a person is culpable for the errors of that conscience. So, yes, man must follow his conscience - even his improperly-formed conscience - but he is also gravely responsible for its proper formation.

continued. . .
 
One can find all sorts of maundering articles on would-be priestesses that quite simply reflect a lack of faith - to say nothing of understanding! - in both the writer and the rebellious persons commented upon so admiringly.

John Paul II on several occasions gave a couple of reasons why the priesthood of Christ is not an option for women, the main ones being that the priest acts ‘in persona Christe’, but also, that had women been chosen for that sacrament, Christ would have chosen His Holy Mother.

Now why don’t some find those reasons fitting?? There must be something missing or skewed in their considering this as a believer for them not to get it. IOW, they can’t think theologically very well. Probably because they have this attitude that if the arguments don’t make sense to them, they don’t make sense! Such an attitude is a failure to admit their limitations; if that’s the case, it would stem from pride of mind, as if the arguments had to make sense to them to make sense. A humble mind would say, “Gee, the Pope just gave us a couple of leads on why the Tradition can not be reversed; maybe I should follow those leads and reflect on how they fit with ordination”.

Theologians who are doing just that, i.e., thinking with the Church, are pointing to the significance of sexuality as a deeper symbol of God’s relation to His people, because the Son (nota bene!) of God became a man and not a woman and chooses His Church to be His Bride. Now that tells us something, doesn’t it?: more clues as to the meaning of God’s choice. If these leads don’t resonate with the thinking of some Catholics, then perhaps they are just not used to thinking theologically at all. Maybe they’re used to thinking just scientifically, i.e., to say secularly and logically without the analogy of Faith; maybe they don’t have the habit of the science of God. Or perhaps they think too emotionally without connecting with the deeper truths at a level beyond the emotions.

Another dimension of women fomenting for ordination is that they are frequently anti-life, especially those on the forefront of this futile crusade (women priestesses being an inevitable spiritual dimension of this crusade for those who try in some to retain some semblance of their “Catholic” identity).

In an article in the April '93 issue of “CRISIS”, Peter Kreeft expressed this very cogently:
"Who are the advocates of women’s ordination? The most prominent and vocal are always dissenters against other official Church teachings as well. The issue of women’s ordination is not isolated; it is one thread of a seamless garment. Pull it, and you unravel the whole robe. (By the way, ‘dissenter’ is a modern euphemism for ‘heretic.’ Both words mean the same thing: one who says No, one who picks and chooses for himself, one who refuses to eat all the food Mother Church tells us to eat.)
"Most shockingly, feminists who advocate priestesses usually advocate accepting abortion. That fact seems to me immediately and totally to destroy their credentials to a hearing. For we know what god the priestesses of abortion serve, and his name is not Jesus. It is Moloch. Moloch also says, ‘Suffer the little children to come unto me,’ but where Jesus places His hand on their heads, Moloch places his teeth.
"In addition to approving abortion, some leaders of the push for priestesses also want the Church to approve contraception, fornication, sodomy, same-sex marriage, and divorce. A more complete demonic attack on the family could not be orchestrated even in Hell.
"Some of the leaders in the movement, such as ‘Womynchurch,’ clearly admit they are worshipping another God - Mother Earth - and practicing another religion - paganism, Christ’s old enemy risen from the dead. Anyone who freely opens the Church’s doors to these barbarians is clearly a traitor, and anyone who can’t see through these spies’ tissue-thin over of ‘Catholicism’ is a fool.
"The origin of modern feminism is not inside Christianity but outside it and against it, in deeply anti-religious and anti-Christian ideologies like Marxism and decontructionism. Mary Daly summarized her self-image candidly when she calls herself (in Pure Lust) the Antichrist, and summarized her life’s work as ‘castrating God the Father.’ Next to her Nietzsche was a wimp.
“There is an obvious connection between the root of the spirit of modern feminism - which is NOT prayer, personal holiness, or submission to God’s will - and its fruit, which is NOT love or joy or peace. In the most public feminist faces you can see the hate, the hardness, and the hurt. Not all advocates of priestesses have that look, but their leaders do.”
 
Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed we’re wasting a lot of bandwidth debating a question that has been definitively settled?

The Church does not have the power to ordain women. Period.
I do not agree. The Church has the power to ordain who it wishes.

More importantly, the Church does not have a mandate to ordain women and therefore can never do it.

There is a huge difference.
 
The pope has not spoken to this ex cathedra, there for it is not dogma and can be falible. Just because it has been tradition, does not mean it is right.
Pope Pius XII said that it is not only ex-cathera statements that deserve our assent. He said that when the Pope speaks definitely on something wheteher it be through an encyclical or otherwise, it is to be taken that the topic of that issue is finished and no further questions remain.
 
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