Wording of the Apostles' Creed

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Techno2000 said:
To show that he conquered hell,and now the people in the upper part of hell will soon be able to go to heaven.
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joecaro said:
Sorry . . . there IS NO upper part of Hell. Hell is all levels of permanent suffering for major sins. You may mean Purgatory, where sins are eventually washed-away or cleansed from the soul.
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In the KJV and some other translations, the word “Hell” is used to translate two different Greek words, Hades and Gehenna. Hades is the Hebrew Sheol, the dark, gloomy place where the souls of all the dead are gathered, the good and the wicked alike. This is the belief found in the Old Testament, with the possible exception of one or two later books such as Daniel. When the later belief arose of a segregated Heaven and Hell, one for the blessed and the other for the damned, Gehenna is Hell in that sense. But Jesus descended into Hades, not into Gehenna.
 
Dan_Defender said:
I assume because the original Latin: 'descendit ad inferos" translates to descended into Hell.
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The problem here is that the original is not Latin, but Greek . . .
joecaro said:
Sorry . . . there IS NO upper part of Hell. Hell is all levels of permanent suffering for major sins.
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You are attempting to impose definitions of an English word (to which multiple greek words and meanings translate) back into greek. That never ends well . . .
 
I have heard it said both ways and depending who I am praying with will say it either way. But the meaning is the same, when one uses the original context of “into hell”.
 
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Today, as we say in the Apostles’ Creed, “He descended into hell.” In fact, Our Lord descended into the Limbo of the Fathers, where those righteous souls who had lived and died before Our Lord’s Incarnation, awaited the opening of the gates of Heaven. In what we call the Harrowing of Hell, the light of Our Lord’s presence pierced the otherwise impenetrable darkness of Limbo and scattered the confused and bewildered daemons who, up to this point, considered that they had captured forever the souls of those therein. Taking Adam’s hand, the Second Adam led him upwards towards Heaven, releasing him from eternal torment and damnation. Adam, in turn, took Eve’s hand and led her upwards also. And so on with all those who were waiting, until there were left in Limbo only those wretched daemons who had for so long sought the ruin of souls. Even in death, Our Lord was working for the salvation of sinners, His beloved sons and daughters. Even in death, He set about conquering death.
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The Church, over many years of analysis, translated the meaning of "Hell"into English. I am not defining nor substituting ancient meanings of any words - I let the church do this task for me. I therefore believe what they say as being 'gospel.'You should remember that God would not let us labor under such an error - except maybe in the "The Lord’s Prayer"prayer. Pope Francis wants to change “lead us not into temptation” and I agree with him. How can this phrase translate His intention to lead us into temptation in the first place. Matthew relates the true meaning of the prayer and the questioned phrase. I personally believe it should be changed to “KEEP us from temptation.”
While on the subject of this special prayer, wouldn’t it be much more meaningful if “give us this day, our daily bread” was changed to “give us this day Your Sacred bread”? I mean, we are praying to God after all, and the sacred bread of Communion will bring us closer to Him rather simply our personal bread and cheese.
 
joecaro said:
I personally believe it should be changed to “KEEP us from temptation.”
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The verb “keep” is not one which could be used to translate the Greek word εἰσφἐρω (eispherô), which means “bring into, introduce”. The Church, in matters of translation, thankfully relies on the work of theologians and exegetes who make sure the translation is not completely betraying the original meaning of the text.
joecaro said:
The Church, over many years of analysis, translated the meaning of "Hell"into English.
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Language evolved. The concepts expressed by it, and their nuances, did too, with or without the (name removed by moderator)ut by the Church. This is precisely why some theologians devote their lives to biblical exegesis : because words are not self-explanatory, because common uses and cultures have evolved over the millennia, and because we need help to bridge the 2000 years gap between our world and the world of the Apostles.

In Catholic theology, “Hell” has become a specialized word used to describe a specific reality. But it took some time for that use to settle, and at the time in which the Apostles’ Creed took shape, the concept that word evoked was different from ours, in good part because it hadn’t been yet shaped by two millennia of Christianity. The dominant culture was still very much pagan.
 
Why did the church change “debts"and debtors” into trespass"" and “trespassers” after hundreds of years. The words do NOT mean the same.
 
joecaro said:
Why did the church change “debts"and debtors” into trespass"" and “trespassers” after hundreds of years. The words do NOT mean the same.
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In Matthew, he uses a word which can be translated as a debt, or something that is owed. The word trespass used to have this same meaning but has since come to mean something different. Words can shift meaning over time so it is important that translation shift to convey the most accurate message over time to the recipients of the translation.
 
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joecaro said:
The Church, over many years of analysis, translated the meaning of "Hell"into English. I am not defining nor substituting ancient meanings of any words - I let the church do this task for me.
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No, you’re not.

As explained at length by others above, there are two words, with distinct concepts that translate to “Hell” in English. Languages often work that way.

This doesn’t make every reference to one, or meaning for one, a reference to the other.

If you want to argue these things based on words, you’re going to have to stick to greek words, not English.
joecaro said:
Why did the church change “debts"and debtors” into trespass"" and “trespassers” after hundreds of years. The words do NOT mean the same.
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The Greek has remained the same. The meaning of the English words used has changed over the centuries, taking words out of “alignment” with the prayer. As such, words that now mean what the greek says (or as close as is possible) need to be put in in place of the old ones.

That is, it’s not about changing, but rather about not changing the prayer.
 
There was a Divine Mercy chaplet program on EWTN in the 1980’s with Fr. George Kosicki and he used “descended to the dead”. It’s my favorite version of the chaplet, as it is a chanted version rather than song.

You can still find the audio on the EWTN audio library. I’d love to see the video, just for nostalgia, but sadly I can’t find it.

I still watch the International Rosary because it reminds me of when I used to say the rosary along to it as a kid when it first aired on EWTN.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
Recently I have heard at least two priests say the Apostles’ Creed at the beginning of the Rosary substituting the words, “He descended to the dead” for “He descended into Hell”.

Since this is a new wording that I hadn’t heard before, I thought the USCCB had perhaps changed the words of the prayer; however, their version still says “into Hell”, not “to the dead”.
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There’s two different original words in Scriptures - translated into English as “hell” …

One refers to call it Capital H Hell… The realm of Eternal Damnation.

The Apostles Creed was not referring to that… but to a place where the spirits of those who died were

Read 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 - for more info…

_
 
EndTimes said:
There’s two different original words in Scriptures - translated into English as “hell” …

One refers to call it Capital H Hell… The realm of Eternal Damnation.

The Apostles Creed was not referring to that… but to a place where the spirits of those who died were

Read 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 - for more info…

_
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Yes, I’m fully aware of that, as shown by the entire preceding thread.

I am simply asking about the difference in wording of the prayer, not the meaning behind the word “hell” as I already know that. The wording difference has been fully explained by previous posters who explained that the wording of the prayer was changed in 1970, then changed back in the 2000s, and that those who say the Rosary often continued to say the pre-1970 version regardless of the change.

@camoderator would you please close this thread? My question has been fully addressed. Thank you.
 
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Tis_Bearself said:
who say the Rosary often continued to say the pre-1970 version regardless of the change
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On October 16, 2002, St. Pope John Paul II introduced the Luminous Mysteries.
Which covers Jesus’ time of Preaching the Gospel
Some rejected that and some gladly accepted them…
 
joecaro said:
Why did the church change “debts"and debtors” into trespass"" and “trespassers” after hundreds of years. The words do NOT mean the same.
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The Gospels of Matthew and Luke, the two Gospels who transmit us the Our Father, have different words for what is rendered in English by “trespasses”.

Matthew uses the word ὀφείλημα (opheilêma, Mt 6:12), which means “debt”, or “what is owed”. Luke, on the other hand, uses the word ἁμαρτία (hamartia, Lk 11:4), which means “fault”, “error”, or “sin” – in short, “trespass”.

The question is: which one of the two do we render?

Of course, this question came with translations, as the Greek liturgical version is the Matthean text with ὀφείλημα. The Latin liturgical version did the same, and kept St. Jerome’s rendition of ὀφείλημα by debita.

There was a choice to be made when translating it into vulgar languages, and it is often “trespasses” which has been privileged, perhaps because the spiritual reality was more relatable that the economical one, perhaps also as a way of acknowledging Luke in an otherwise very Matthean text.

But it is not a matter of changing words. Both “debt” and “trespass” were there from the beginning.
 
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