Working Hours

[RachelsAlumni]

I work 40 hrs a week with one week paid vacation a year. I haven’t had a raise in 3 years in spite of the increased cost of living. I have no paid sick leave. My employer pays for health insurance, but it’s an HMO and I have a copay if I go to see the doctor and it’s substandard healthcare. It can take a month or longer to get a doctors appointment. Yet I am happy to have a job.

Yes I would love to have a job where I’m paid a higher wage with sick pay and more vacation, but that hasn’t been my lot in life.

My salary allows me to rent a small, meager home, a 9’ x 25’ cottage. As a single person, non-homeowner I pay >25% federal taxes. I pay for utilities: water, trash & electricity. I have internet service, cable TV & phone and a cell phone. Other expenses are car insurance/maintenance (I own my own economy car). Fuel expenses lately have taken a bigger chunk out of my paycheck since I commute 20 miles each way to work and back. Food prices have gone up considerably as well and have almost doubled in the past year which has taken it’s toll on my budget.

Back in the early 90’s I went on a 6 week vacation to Europe. When I was in Fussen, Germany I met a police officer on vacation. He had a 3 week vacation, all expenses paid, with daily massages at a resort. Nice! Then when I was in Munich I met some Germans who said they had 3 months vacation a year! When I got to Paris the entire town was on vacation. While I was there I met a man who lived in Paris and had his own business where he worked for only a few hours a day. I don’t know how they do it.

I love how some countries have daily siestas yet when I was in Florence, Italy I arrived at the onset of the siesta when all the shops close down for the afternoon. I was starving and I had to wait until after siesta to eat. It was very frustrating.

 

[thomfra]

I love how some countries have daily siestas yet when I was in Florence, Italy I arrived at the onset of the siesta when all the shops close down for the afternoon. I was starving and I had to wait until after siesta to eat. It was very frustrating.

I wish I could take a siesta each day…

 

[BamaRider]

And this is the main difference.

From the Wall Street Journal

opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110005242

Selected text from the URL

The study, “The EU vs. USA,” was done by a pair of economists–Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag–for the Swedish think tank Timbro. It found that if Europe were part of the U.S., only tiny Luxembourg could rival the richest of the 50 American states in gross domestic product per capita. Most European countries would rank below the U.S. average, as the chart below shows.

The authors admit that man doesn’t live by GDP alone, and that this measure misses output in the “black” economy, which is significant in Europe’s high-tax states. GDP also overlooks “the value of leisure or a good environment” or the way prosperity is spread across a society.

But a rising tide still lifts all boats, and U.S. GDP per capita was a whopping 32% higher than the EU average in 2000, and the gap hasn’t closed since. It is so wide that if the U.S. economy had frozen in place at 2000 levels while Europe grew, the Continent would still require years to catch up. Ireland, which has lower tax burdens and fewer regulations than the rest of the EU, would be the first but only by 2005. Switzerland, not a member of the EU, and Britain would get there by 2010. But Germany and Spain would need until 2015, while Italy, Sweden and Portugal would have to wait until 2022.

Higher GDP per capita allows the average American to spend about $9,700 more on consumption every year than the average European. So Yanks have by far more cars, TVs, computers and other modern goods. “Most Americans have a standard of living which the majority of Europeans will never come anywhere near,” the Swedish study says.

To each his own.

 

[tqualey]

Dear Biggie,

Yours is truly an inspirational story. And your mentor in the car parking lot was there at the right time for you!

Being able to help someone when they truly need it is a wonderful blessing - ah, I hope you still keep in touch with this guy!

In reading the post on minimum wage workers not having an abundance of opportunities, let me offer another idea - actually two:

1- those who desire to change their lives have examples all over the place. Some are good and some are bad - but all serve as an example by their life’s story. Some worked to put themselves through school and now have a better paying job. Some worked to sell drugs or their bodies - and now are in jail if they are lucky - or dead from an overdose or a bullet. Just look around and see what is really happening - and if you do not like where you are, then find a way to make positive changes in your life so you can move yourself forward. Does this mean finishing high school, being honorable in your dealings with others, going to college? Maybe. Only you know what you need - once you have this knowledge go to a counselor to find out how best to make it happen.

2- In every case, opportunities are what you make of them. It is classic that two people are given a chance at doing something - some leap at the challenge and master the moment, while others do nothing, and then whine and complain about how ‘unfair’ life is to them There is absolutely nothig new in this - it is classic human nature, in fact, there is some excellent documentation of this fact located in Matt 25:14-30.

Best wishes

 

[thomfra]

Dear Biggie,

Yours is truly an inspirational story. And your mentor in the car parking lot was there at the right time for you!

Being able to help someone when they truly need it is a wonderful blessing - ah, I hope you still keep in touch with this guy!

In reading the post on minimum wage workers not having an abundance of opportunities, let me offer another idea - actually two:

1- those who desire to change their lives have examples all over the place. Some are good and some are bad - but all serve as an example by their life’s story. Some worked to put themselves through school and now have a better paying job. Some worked to sell drugs or their bodies - and now are in jail if they are lucky - or dead from an overdose or a bullet. Just look around and see what is really happening - and if you do not like where you are, then find a way to make positive changes in your life so you can move yourself forward. Does this mean finishing high school, being honorable in your dealings with others, going to college? Maybe. Only you know what you need - once you have this knowledge go to a counselor to find out how best to make it happen.

2- In every case, opportunities are what you make of them. It is classic that two people are given a chance at doing something - some leap at the challenge and master the moment, while others do nothing, and then whine and complain about how ‘unfair’ life is to them There is absolutely nothig new in this - it is classic human nature, in fact, there is some excellent documentation of this fact located in Matt 25:14-30.

Best wishes

That’s a lovely attitude you have there. Bascially what you are saying is that those that don’t make it are just lazy and lacking in motivation.

 

[rlg94086]

That’s a lovely attitude you have there. Bascially what you are saying is that those that don’t make it are just lazy and lacking in motivation.

That is an interesting take on what Tom wrote. Are you saying that Europeans don’t believe you should follow good examples and improve your lot in life. (from point #1) Or, are you saying that Europeans believe that people who don’t follow the good examples should just be given the same thing that the people who do follow good examples earned through study and hard work? (from point #2)

I didn’t see where Tom claimed “that those that don’t make it are just lazy and lacking in motivation.” It is true however, that those who are lazy and lacking in motivation generally don’t make it. If they take Tom’s advice, they can improve their lives.

What is wrong with that exactly?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, thomfra,

That’s a lovely attitude you have there. Bascially what you are saying is that those that don’t make it are just lazy and lacking in motivation.

Basically, that is not what I am saying. :nope:

But, it could be that I wasn’t clear. So, tell me, what is your basic understanding of Christ’s parable as related in Matthew concerning the three servants and the talents they were given. Explaining this may help me to understand where the concepts of “…lazy and lacking in motivation…” come from.

God bless.

 

[strugglingalong]

I think part of why Americans work so much more comes from that “Protestant Work Ethic” that so many people, even Catholics, have embraced. This ethic, that comes from the Puritans, says that idleness is the devils playground and therefore we must be working hard all the time. Along with that is the “Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence” mentality. People feel they have to work harder so they can have the nice grill, big yard, nicer car, better clothes ] (you fill in the blank), and then they have no time to enjoy the ‘greener grass’.

And the adjacent idea that to profit economically is a sign of election which caused them to work harder too. Their eternal election was tied in some way to their work ethic.

It’s sad.

Pax Christi tecum.

 

[whatevergirl]

One of the things that probably separates Europeans and Americans most, with Britain somewhere in the middle, is our working practices. Most countries in Europe have a 35hour maximum working week for most jobs. The norm in America is 40hours, and many Americans work 2 or more jobs, evenings as well as days, or weekends as well as weekdays. Holiday entitlements are also different, with Americans having 10 or 12 days, while British people get a minimum of 20, often more, and some countries in Europe having regular 25day entitlements, plus a two-week statutory public holiday, such as the Grand-Vacance in Paris.

I don’t know how Americans do it. How do you cope with so little free time? So great is the demand on your time, that the Church even has to commute holy days of obligation to Sundays, because so few people could make time for a mid-week mass.

And more to the point, why do you do it? I guess the pay-per-hour must be lower, or do people just choose to work more and earn more even though they could live comfortably on less?

It has been said that with today’s technology, we could all work 3 days a week and still enjoy a higher quality of life (measured in terms of material posessions at least) than our grandparents ever did.

Anyway, I just wanted to get people’s views on the ethical dimensions of work and working hours. Many of the posters on this thread advocate policies that promote the family, tax breaks for married couples, heterosexual-only marriage, home-schooling, outlawing abortion, etc. What about helping people to work less so they can spend more quality time with their families?

Here’s a story:
An American on holiday in Mexico walks into a little fish restaurant by the sea. He enjoys the fish, and decides to go back the next day, but finds the place closed. He sees the owner by the beach and asks if something is wrong because his place is closed.
“I only open Monday through Wednesday” the man says, “I make enough money from that to keep me going through the week, rest of the time I stay home, play with my kids, go swimming in the sea.”
“Well, I just got to say, your fish is great,” replies the American, “have you ever thought of opening up a chain? You could train a bunch of chefs to cook the way you do, open up a restaurant in every city, have people pay you for the franchise, it would be great, after a few years you could hire somebody else to take over the day to day running of the business for you, then you could take long holidays, take the weekend off, play with your kids, go swimming in the sea.”

I have often wondered how we cope in this country, compared to our overseas counterparts. But, when you look at our disease rates, level of divorce, heart attacks, greed, hunger for more and more ‘toys’, etc…etc…it looks like America isn’t ‘coping’ all that well, actually.

 

[tqualey]

Hi strugglingalong,

You are so right - this is one of those elements of Calvinism that always made me wonder, “Now, where did that guy get this?”

And the adjacent idea that to profit economically is a sign of election which caused them to work harder too. Their eternal election was tied in some way to their work ethic.

How anyone could think they are following a pennyless carpenter and come up with the idea of amassing personal wealth as a sign of Divine Favor, is beyond me!

God bless

 

[Oscarthecat]

Hi strugglingalong,

You are so right - this is one of those elements of Calvinism that always made me wonder, “Now, where did that guy get this?”

How anyone could think they are following a pennyless carpenter and come up with the idea of amassing personal wealth as a sign of Divine Favor, is beyond me!

God bless

Agreed, but by the same token, it is beyond me how anyone could conclude that Jesus’ taught that politicians and government bureaucracies are the best way to serve the needs of the poor.

 

[Biggie]

As you said God, family, *then *work. In that order. An old saying. Work to live, not live to work.

The two sentiments you are expressing are not equivalent. Properly considered, God, family and work are not in competition but complete eachother. The second sentiment says more about the person offering it. It might just as easily be said, “Pray to live, not live to pray.”

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Oscarthecat,

I guess I missed that part…

Agreed, but by the same token, it is beyond me how anyone could conclude that Jesus’ taught that politicians and government bureaucracies are the best way to serve the needs of the poor.

Who said this about politicians and government? Our elected officials have their place (some are under indictment…others are serving jail time … and the rest are trying to get re-electd! )

The big push as I recall with the Protestant Reformation was to throw out the priests and religious, confiscate their property - and effectively leave the sick and poor to make other arrangements for their care. Government was not taking care of anyone but government’s friends - the rich, influential and those who would do whatever was necessary to befriend those now in power.

God Bless

 

[thomfra]

The point of the excercise is to ensure that people are not exploited. In france it was a special case to try and boost employment.

Yes, people should be allowed to work if they want (taking extra jobs, selling things on Ebay etc), for as long as they want.

But a more reasonable society should be built around the classic 8hrs/8hrs/8hrs model.

We shoudn’t be paying people so little that they *have *to work 12 hour days to feed their family. It’s just not ethical.

We know that pure capitalism is a cruel master (as is communism, or any other model taken to its extreme).

Think of the profiteering that went on during the great depression.
Think of those taking advantage of the credit crunch today, with buy-back schemes etc.

There has to be a balance between work and life, between profit and fairness.

 

[thomfra]

The second sentiment says more about the person offering it. It might just as easily be said, “Pray to live, not live to pray.”

Not sure what you mean here?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, thomfra,

I am guessing that too much has been going on for you to respond to post - so, I will repost it. I really am interested in an answer.

Basically, that is not what I am saying. :nope:

But, it could be that I wasn’t clear. So, tell me, what is your basic understanding of Christ’s parable as related in Matthew concerning the three servants and the talents they were given. Explaining this may help me to understand where the concepts of “…lazy and lacking in motivation…” come from.

God bless.

Looking forward to hearing about your view of Matt 25:14-30 specific to how these workers were rewarded and the role of laziness and under-motivation.

God bless

 

[RachelsAlumni]

… a more reasonable society should be built around the classic 8hrs/8hrs/8hrs model.

What is this model?

… We shoudn’t be paying people so little that they *have *to work 12 hour days to feed their family. It’s just not ethical.

I agree. My employer has the manufacturing (as opposed to office/sales) employees working 6 days a week/12 hr shifts rather than hire more employees and schedule a 3rd shift. The people are willing to do it because their pay is so low that this is the only way they can earn enough income to support their families. The problem is that most of those who work these hours are single (and stay that way) because if they are married they soon become divorced as their spouse and children never see them anymore. The have only one day, Sunday, to spend with their families. I think the owners of my company are in for a big surprise when it comes their time to meet their maker and are held to account for all these divorces and broken families.

… We know that pure capitalism is a cruel master (as is communism, or any other model taken to its extreme).

From the beginning of the industrial age, the Christian truth about work had to oppose the various trends of materialistic and economistic thought. For certain supporters of such ideas, work was understood and treated as a sort of ‘merchandise’ that the worker sells to the employer, who at the same time is the possessor of the capital, of all the working tools and means that make production possible. The interaction between the worker and the tools and means of production has given rise to the development of various forms of capitalism, together with various forms of collectivism. The danger of treating work as a specia1 kind of ‘merchandise’ or as an impersonal ‘force’ needed for production always exists. A one-sidedly materialistic civilization gives prime importance to the objective dimension of work, while the subjective dimension–everything in direct or indirect relationship with the subject of work–remains an a secondary level. Man is treated as an instrument of production, whereas he, independent of the work he does, ought to be treated as the effective subject of work and its true maker and creator. In reality, man is the subject and maker of work, and thus the true purpose of the whole process of production. Man has dominion over the earth through his work; he is not to be dominated by false theories of work. Pope John Paul II, Laborem exercens (On Human Work, 1981 (Daughters of St. Paul, Boston: 1991).

 

[Contarini]

Hi strugglingalong,

You are so right - this is one of those elements of Calvinism that always made me wonder, “Now, where did that guy get this?”

Did it ever cross your mind that this might in fact not be an element of Calvinism?

Because it isn’t. You will not find this teaching in any Calvinist confessional statement. What Weber claimed was that some Calvinist (mostly Puritan) devotional writers advanced this idea, and that the idea took on a life of its own as the religious fervor that had fueled it waned. Weber’s thesis is very controversial. I think there’s some truth to it, but it needs to be heavily qualified. Instead, people take it in a much broader and more sweeping direction than Weber himself did.

Believing shallow and unfair stereotypes about Calvinists is just as serious a sin as believing shallow and unfair stereotypes about Catholics. Isn’t it?

Even Weber never claimed that Calvin taught this. In fact Calvin wrote movingly about the suffering that was the lot even of OT believers.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Hi, thomfra,

Basically, that is not what I am saying. :nope:

But, it could be that I wasn’t clear. So, tell me, what is your basic understanding of Christ’s parable as related in Matthew concerning the three servants and the talents they were given.

It’s talking about how we respond to grace. It has nothing whatever to do with economics. A monk who prays all day, or a medieval Franciscan who went around begging, is/was “using his talents” just as much as a devout farmer or merchant who works from sunup to sundown.

Edwin

 

[tqualey]

Hi, RachelsAlumni.

Your employer is consistently working people 72 hours/week? I am guessing that you are in the US where manufacturing jobs would be covered under the Wage and Hour Division of the US Department of Labor.(here is a link: dol.gov/esa/whd/ ) What I mean by this is that the employer is paying each worker a minimum of 1.5x their hourly wage as overtime (if not, this maybe subject to an investigation by the DOL)

And because this is manufacturing - an area where people sometimes get hurt - there would be a concern about lost time injuries, and this would be covered under the Occupational Safety and Health Adm - also under the US Dept of Labor (here is another link: osha.gov/ ). What I mean by this is that after so many hours of continuous work, people begin to make mistakes in the work that they do. While virtually all mistakes involved a waste of time, materials and energy - some also involve accidents and substandard products being released out into the public. Errors are always expensive.

I guess I am just amazed that anyone in management could seriously think they are ‘saving money’ by working their employees this hard. A third shift would not only be economical - but, probably reduce the amount of emplyee turnover this guy is undoubtedly experiencing! All in all - this employer seems rather unenlighted in his efforts to run any kind of business - even if his only focus is the ‘Bottom Line’.

My employer has the manufacturing (as opposed to office/sales) employees working 6 days a week/12 hr shifts rather than hire more employees and schedule a 3rd shift. The people are willing to do it because their pay is so low that this is the only way they can earn enough income to support their families. .

Now, there is an area that does have me concerned and it is one that I have no answer for. Your quote from John Paul II was very intersting. And while ‘pure’ anything in the economic realm exists only in text books, what we have are various mixtures of capitalism and communism - and both of those systems obviously have their short-comings. I am just unaware of any system (except the form of communal sharing [communism] that existed with the Apostles and described in Acts) that has the approval of the Church.

Does anyone know of any economic system currently used that passes the criteria laid down by John Paul II? While we all (one way or another) participate in a world economy - each country has its own way of establishing economic rewards (and punishments). What else is out there? How does Vatican City pay its employees, set up recognized assets and liabilities, pay thier bills, loan and borrow money and all the rest of the things that a soverign country does?

Just what is the message of Christ here? Does anyone really look to the flowers and see that they neither toil or spin - as an example of how we handle our personal finances? Christ did a lot of things that were not recorded - I am guessing He sold his carpentry work to support Mary and Himself. But, no one knows how He figured His sale price. Christ did not have 12 employees - and yet, they were not independent contractors, either. Paul, conversely, made tents and supported himself while engaging in the Ministry. How did he set his price? If he had employed workers to make tents - how did he pay them?

I really do not know about this - and would honestly appreciate anyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut.

God bless