Working Hours

[tqualey]

Hi, Edwin,

Did it ever cross your mind that this might in fact not be an element of Calvinism?

In answer to your question, No, it had not crossed my mind. I had really thought this was one of Calvin’s teachings.

Believing shallow and unfair stereotypes about Calvinists is just as serious a sin as believing shallow and unfair stereotypes about Catholics. Isn’t it?

You are correct about that, indeed. I apologize if I offended anyone in this matter.

 

[Biggie]

Not sure what you mean here?

I am saying whatever happened to “ora et labora”? Work, correctly undertaken, is prayer, just as prayer is work. Every time I have heard someone use the saying, “I work to live. I don’t live to work.” he was explaining why he was not committing himself to his work to the extent that others around him were. The things he was not doing became additional burdens for his committed coworkers to carry.

 

[cynic]

I am saying whatever happened to “ora et labora”? Work, correctly undertaken, is prayer, just as prayer is work. Every time I have heard someone use the saying, “I work to live. I don’t live to work.” he was explaining why he was not committing himself to his work to the extent that others around him were. The things he was not doing became additional burdens for his committed coworkers to carry.

So he doesn’t stay till 9:00 p.m like the others. This is a tactic on management’s part - create a situation where people feel embarrassed to leave, where nobody wants to “let the team down”, all to avoid having to hire extra staff and the higher labour costs that involves

 

[Biggie]

So he doesn’t stay till 9:00 p.m like the others. This is a tactic on management’s part - create a situation where people feel embarrassed to leave, where nobody wants to “let the team down”, all to avoid having to hire extra staff and the higher labour costs that involves

That devious, ever present management. Ah yes. The management class, born and bred management. Where do they raise those managers anayway? And those stupid sheep who baah right behind them. Stupid proletariat. I see what you mean. Let’s leave early. Play 9. Little Bud. Let the sheep get sheared. Work to live …

 

[Oscarthecat]

So he doesn’t stay till 9:00 p.m like the others. This is a tactic on management’s part - create a situation where people feel embarrassed to leave, where nobody wants to “let the team down”, all to avoid having to hire extra staff and the higher labour costs that involves

You said it, comrade.
I’ve had to deal with my share of managers who were always worried about “profitability” and “keeping the doors open” and their crazy tactics like “making sure the company is successful enough to keep from having to resort to layoffs.”

In high school I was lucky enough to work for a guy who had management insight like yours…

He was a real visionary- he wanted his staff to see him like an equal- he didn’t want to come off like an uptight manager. He just let people to come and go as they please. He never made us feel guilty about “letting the team down” --he just hired more people to pick up the slack. We came in late, hung out most of the time, talked about what a great boss he was, and took off early. It was awesome.

Too bad it didn’t last long before he went out of business, and filed for bankruptcy, and I think he might have lost his life savings, and of course we all lost our jobs- and I think that some of the older staff were evicted because they couldn’t pay their rent. But it was great while it lasted, right?

You know, he’d probably still be in business today if everybody voted for more government programs to subsidize failing businesses- but people are just too selfish.

 

[Biggie]

You said it, comrade.
I’ve had to deal with my share of managers who were always worried about “profitability” and “keeping the doors open” and their crazy tactics like “making sure the company is successful enough to keep from having to resort to layoffs.”

In high school I was lucky enough to work for a guy who had management insight like yours…

He was a real visionary- he wanted his staff to see him like an equal- he didn’t want to come off like an uptight manager. He just let people to come and go as they please. He never made us feel guilty about “letting the team down” --he just hired more people to pick up the slack. We came in late, hung out most of the time, talked about what a great boss he was, and took off early. It was awesome.

Too bad it didn’t last long before he went out of business, and filed for bankruptcy, and I think he might have lost his life savings, and of course we all lost our jobs- and I think that some of the older staff were evicted because they couldn’t pay their rent. But it was great while it lasted, right?

You know, he’d probably still be in business today if everybody voted for more government programs to subsidize failing businesses- but people are just too selfish.

hee hee hee!

 

[cynic]

That devious, ever present management. Ah yes. The management class, born and bred management.

No, just people who’s job it is to mimize costs and maximize output, and to keep pushing regardless of how profitable the business. I don’t blame them. It’s just a very one-sided point of view. Businesses survived with the majority of workers putting in around 40 hours plus some overtime for most a last century. This is not a lesson in reality from those who know better, it’s reality as they want others to see it.

I see what you mean. Let’s leave early. Play 9. Little Bud. Let the sheep get sheared. Work to live …

Leaving at 9 is knocking off early… we truly are at the outer limits:hypno:

 

[thomfra]

You said it, comrade.
I’ve had to deal with my share of managers who were always worried about “profitability” and “keeping the doors open” and their crazy tactics like “making sure the company is successful enough to keep from having to resort to layoffs.”

In high school I was lucky enough to work for a guy who had management insight like yours…

He was a real visionary- he wanted his staff to see him like an equal- he didn’t want to come off like an uptight manager. He just let people to come and go as they please. He never made us feel guilty about “letting the team down” --he just hired more people to pick up the slack. We came in late, hung out most of the time, talked about what a great boss he was, and took off early. It was awesome.

Too bad it didn’t last long before he went out of business, and filed for bankruptcy, and I think he might have lost his life savings, and of course we all lost our jobs- and I think that some of the older staff were evicted because they couldn’t pay their rent. But it was great while it lasted, right?

You know, he’d probably still be in business today if everybody voted for more government programs to subsidize failing businesses- but people are just too selfish.

Yet another post from Oscarthecat that just screams “artistic licence”.

If you can’t run a buisness with reasonable hours for your staff then you are clearly a poor buisnessman.

 

[thomfra]

I am saying whatever happened to “ora et labora”? Work, correctly undertaken, is prayer, just as prayer is work. Every time I have heard someone use the saying, “I work to live. I don’t live to work.” he was explaining why he was not committing himself to his work to the extent that others around him were. The things he was not doing became additional burdens for his committed coworkers to carry.

Oh I see. Do you have an opinion on how many hours a week is reasonable to expect from an employee?

 

[cynic]

There are still labour laws in the U.S for wage earners. If the poster Biggie is a General manager of Manufacturing plant then his company has to abide by them, whether he likes it or not, and pay some rather high overtime rates if staff were asked to work 70 hours a week (for eg). Employees are probably not asked to work those sort of hours, yet they remain in business.

 

[leonie]

Kellog pioneered a 30 hour week and prospered during the depression.

context.org/ICLIB/IC37/Hunnicut.htm

I read an article years ago about how the shorter shifts changed the community for the better.

During WWII, more hours were worked and then the consumerism of post WWII took over…too bad.

 

[RachelsAlumni]

Hi, RachelsAlumni.
Your employer is consistently working people 72 hours/week? I am guessing that you are in the US where manufacturing jobs would be covered under the Wage and Hour Division of the US Department of Labor.(here is a link: dol.gov/esa/whd/ ) What I mean by this is that the employer is paying each worker a minimum of 1.5x .

Yes. Most people in the manufacturing end are working 80+ hour workweeks and are paid time and 1/2 or overtime for over 8 hrs day/40 hrs wk. This is why they do it. The overtime rate of pay is better and brings their income up to almost around $40,000/yr.

The management, sales, & office personnel are paid a higher wage or commission (still less than other places) and don’t work overtime except rarely. The don’t need to work overtime to increase their salary.

Interesting you should mention safety. My employer is constantly harping & nagging about safety training, safety training, safety training till it’s coming out our noses. We have to take classes, tests, etc that count towards our review. Supposedly our raises are based on how well we score on the Safety Training, that is when they get around to giving a review. I haven’t had a review or raise in over 3 years.

We are also scored on attendance. I know one woman I work with was telling me she was given a poor review and no raise because she was out sick for 5 days with pneumonia. They deduct points for missed days even when there’s a legitimate reason. Not that it matters, since like I said, it’s been 3 years since I’ve had a raise/review. A fews years back there was an older man, we even called him Viejo, who was ‘let go’ because he just couldn’t work those hours anymore. It was more complicated than that, he had asked for time off for a surgery and when he returned to work they pressured him to work long hours and weekends and when he refused they let him go.

I guess I am just amazed that anyone in management could seriously think they are ‘saving money’ by working their employees this hard. A third shift would not only be economical - but, probably reduce the amount of emplyee turnover this guy is undoubtedly experiencing!

There is very little turnover. Most employees have been there for decades. They figure where else are they gonna work and make that much for unskilled labor? I know several unskilled manufacturing employees are applying for their LPR. While in the process of getting the LPR they have to show employment for I think, 5 consecutive years.

Does anyone know of any economic system currently used that passes the criteria laid down by John Paul II?

From my rather simple-minded understanding of the quote it boils down to the same message as Theology of the Body. That we are all made in God’s image and can’t be made into ‘an object’ to be used. We are not a product or a means to an end. We work because we have dominion over the earth through our work. That is the criteria, that we not be used or abused as an object or means to an end.

If you’d like to read further on the Church’s thinking on Labor. Here’s a website “The Catholic - Labor Network” that has all the Encyclicals & Social Doctrine Documents & Articles which concern Catholic and Labor Issues.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, RachelsAlumni,

Thank you for the very thoughtful reply and for the link.

You and your co-workers are in my prayers. Your group may want to discuss the advantages of a labor union.

Best wishes.

If you’d like to read further on the Church’s thinking on Labor. Here’s a website “The Catholic - Labor Network” that has all the Encyclicals & Social Doctrine Documents & Articles which concern Catholic and Labor Issues.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Kellog pioneered a 30 hour week and prospered during the depression.

context.org/ICLIB/IC37/Hunnicut.htm

I read an article years ago about how the shorter shifts changed the community for the better.

During WWII, more hours were worked and then the consumerism of post WWII took over…too bad.

The context of that situation is significantly different than the present context.

Whereas the primary motivation for people wanting fewer hours in this converation has had to do with various perspectives on “quality of life” issues, Kelloggs motivation was about making more jobs available during a time when unemployement was disabling the country.

“By adding one entire shift, he reasoned, 30 percent more jobs would be added at the plant - jobs desperately needed by the unemployed in the city.”

Don’t misunderstand, I think that it was a great way for Kelloggs to respond to the huge unemployment lines.

But the positive response from consumers, employees, and businesses had very little to do the fact that they were working fewer hours. They were happy to work fewer hours because of their sense of solidarity with those who were unemployed, and their realization that working fewer hours made room for more people to have the opportunity to be self-sufficient.

The people working for Kelloggs during the great depression appreciated work as its own incentive, because they lived in severe poverty, and were grateful to Kelloggs for providing that opportunity.

In the modern context, and in some aspects of this discussion, it seems that people have come to resent having to work and the employers they work for, and would rather surrender their self-sufficiency in exchange for government dependence.

I think it is very sad how the attitude toward work has changed so much in just a few generations.

 

[BamaRider]

We are also scored on attendance

Imagine that.

 

[Biggie]

Leaving at 9 is knocking off early… we truly are at the outer limits:hypno:

That’s play 9 - it’s golf. A silly little game, not well known I understand.

 

[Biggie]

Oh I see. Do you have an opinion on how many hours a week is reasonable to expect from an employee?

Does committment equate to hours in your mind? I want heart, initiative, mind, strength. The kind of people you have to chase home. They still exist.

 

[cynic]

In the modern context, and in some aspects of this discussion, it seems that people have come to resent having to work and the employers they work for, and would rather surrender their self-sufficiency in exchange for government dependence.

I think it is very sad how the attitude toward work has changed so much in just a few generations.

Did you bother reading post # 71?

 

[ribozyme]

The context of that situation is significantly different than the present context.

Whereas the primary motivation for people wanting fewer hours in this converation has had to do with various perspectives on “quality of life” issues, Kelloggs motivation was about making more jobs available during a time when unemployement was disabling the country.

“By adding one entire shift, he reasoned, 30 percent more jobs would be added at the plant - jobs desperately needed by the unemployed in the city.”

Don’t misunderstand, I think that it was a great way for Kelloggs to respond to the huge unemployment lines.

But the positive response from consumers, employees, and businesses had very little to do the fact that they were working fewer hours. They were happy to work fewer hours because of their sense of solidarity with those who were unemployed, and their realization that working fewer hours made room for more people to have the opportunity to be self-sufficient.

The people working for Kelloggs during the great depression appreciated work as its own incentive, because they lived in severe poverty, and were grateful to Kelloggs for providing that opportunity.

In the modern context, and in some aspects of this discussion, it seems that people have come to resent having to work and the employers they work for, and would rather surrender their self-sufficiency in exchange for government dependence.

I think it is very sad how the attitude toward work has changed so much in just a few generations.

Do you have any evidence for this? Or you simply re-interpret data to fit your ideological predilections?

 

[geezerbob]

My father was one of the fortunate ones who had a job during the entire depression. There was more of a sense of community back then and people did help each other. Those who had little would find odd jobs for those who had even less and would afford them the dignity of earning what little they could pay them.

A couple of years after I entered the work force, I got on as a clerk at the post office. For three months, I worked from 5 in the afternoon until 5:30 the next morning, 7 days a week, at $2.16 an hour straight pay, no time and a half for over 40. I was happy to do it because it gave me the opportunity to purchase a house for my growing family.